Behavior Challenge Thread

[mechurchlady]

C&G'sMama you can have some of my gluten free chocolate brownies and lots of hugs. I do tsk tsk sometimes but jokingly so you know that from the kid's point of view how wrong you are. Like the lady who could not see the difference between fast food fries, fast food curly fries, and frozen home cooked fries. Tsk Tsk on that one.

I say I visit the spectrum on nice long vacations as I have no set diagnosis but know that it has to be genetic and that mom is super highly sensitive. I am half that and a few other brain traumas probably. I have been on both ends of the parent child relationship because of me being the parent to my mother.

I find this board to be a place where everyone knows you and cares for you through the tough times. It is nice to know there are other people like myself out there and it is nice to get them hugs. Dont need real chocolate as what I need most is love and understanding. Hugs make the day a bit brighter.

I am up late as I have to watch Law and Order at midnight with mom. She works on a word search puzzle book and rarely understands the story so I have to take mental notes and squeeze an explanation in at the end when she asks. I conceded to her this time and there is peace for a while.

line up
Hugs and chocolates and dole whips
Laurie

 

[BeckyScott]

I am still stumped.

I talked to DS and tried to logic with him. I explained that the reason we were doing the computer coupons and the quarters was because I was very frustrated. Because when I ask for help (like with chores) or when it's time to do something (like homework) that I don't get any cooperation. And because the most important job he has is to try his best at school, and that he's been "caught" several times trying to get out of doing work or slacking off. And that helping me do things at home was a part of being in the family, and that I don't always think they're very fun either, but they are things that must be done. He went along with this, and asked if he did those things, could we get rid of the coupons. I said okay, but emphasized exactly what I meant. (i.e., when I say that it's time for homework, which is the same time every day, that I would only have to say it once, that he wouldn't complain, that he would stop what he was doing and come on in the room immediately and do it, and I was going to go over every single thing in his planner, etc etc)

That worked for two days.

We have a bad infestation of the Not Fair Bug and the Don't Wanna Worm here.

He has help filling out his planner every day so that I know what is written in the planner is accurate. But he has very bad handwriting and they use "code" a lot and sometimes I cannot even figure out what's written in there. Then he either gets confused or just doesn't want to do all the homework. The planner will say Math WS 25-26 and it will be in the planner and he will tell me it's due Thursday, not tomorrow. So we will wait. And then the next day there is a note in his planner saying his math work wasn't done and now there's 2 more pages added on. I told him that from now on, I don't care what day it's due, if it's in the planner he's finishing it that night.

I also think the school is trying to drive me crazy. I don't know how anyone can do this. Both kids need direct one-on-one to do their homework. Youngest DS because of the distractibility. Oldest DS because much of the time he doesn't understand it. So let's look at the time frame- we get home at 3:30. They will both have 1/2 hour of homework plus 1/2 hour of reading time. I have to cook dinner (in theory with them helping me) and they have to eat and dishes have to be washed. DH isn't home to help. They both need baths, and I have to supervise youngest DS in there. Youngest DS will also need to be medicated/ lotioned after the bath. Lately we've been needing to nebulize him. Ten-minute-tidy the living room before bedtime. And they need to go to bed at 8:00. This is all assuming that we have nothing else at all going on that evening, no doctor's appointments, no meetings. It sounds feasible, barely, but it would also be polite to give the kids, I don't know, an hour in there somewhere to de-compress and be kids, because if you wanna talk "fair", I don't think it's fair for them to be at school all day and then come home and be drill-sargeant-ed around for 5 more hours without a break, and then get up and do it again the next day. One day last week they each had almost an hour's worth of homework, and it was the kind of homework where I had to sit with them and talk thru each problem, so I was doing a solid 2-hour stretch of "tutoring". (which is why I have no intention of ever home-schooling, as I was about ready to beat my head on the wall by the end of that) Neither one have modified homework, but if it keeps up I am going to have to approach that at the IEP meetings. It would be fine if it was only one kid per night, but I swear they are sitting around the teacher's lounge trying to figure out how to make me crazy.

Ugh. And now it's time to wake everyone up.

 

[mechurchlady]

Hugs for Becky and lots of coffee.
I am not awake yet and am setting in my nest thinking about finding that bleeping black box coupon or no television for mom which would lead to 2 weeks of pouting hissy fits when I am on the computer.

Thugs I cannot help you Becky other that trading my mom for your two kids and sending you lots of hugs and coffee and chocolates and dreams of WDW in a concierge suite with nanny for each kid.

Do they make granny nannies?

 

[BeckyScott]

I just wanted to clarify.

I know the standard is 10 minutes of homework per grade level. I don't know if you'd count reading time as part of that, I'm saying yes because it is required. So in theory, oldest DS should have 30 minutes of reading and about 20 minutes of homework. And maybe that's what it is for typical kids, but not how it is at our house, because he needs to be walked thru step-by-step for every single problem he's given, no matter how many times he does it. Youngest DS, forget it, he really is only required 20 minutes of reading so 10 more of homework, but he is soooo distractable that a worksheet that would take a typical child 2 minutes will take him the full 10, at least, and that's with me constantly reminding him to focus. Last week, that one night, he had 10 math worksheets, they were a re-do. Seriously. And of course, most of the re-do was because he wrote down the answers without showing his work, which is a recurring theme. UGH!

 

[bookwormde]

Becky,

He probably does not view your frustration as a logical basis. The whole concept of cooperation is a social one so that rarely works. His care and concern for you will have an impact, but if he cannot view the “rationality” of the underlying issues even that is transitory.

Schools that really understand children with spectrum characteristics, take to heart the leading clinicians recommendations that “homework” just does not “compute” for this group of children, so many IEPs in this area just specify an as practical and useful basis for homework.

I cannot imagine my son without at least and hour of decompression time after school, what a scary thought.

I have an early riser so he does a lot of his homework in the morning.

bookwormde

 

[C&G'sMama]

Regarding the homework. The NT DD and the Aspie DS. It's like pulling teeth with both of them.

For DS I've taken to sitting with him and when he is writing I count to 5 or 10 depending on the word. That gives him a concrete amount of time to finish the word in. He asked me what would happen if I got to 10 and he wasn't finished. I said, nothing, I'm just trying to get you to focus and it seems to be working. I did that with his book report last night and his home work tonight where he had to come up with word beginning with each letter in his name. He has 11 total.

I'm hoping that we'll be able to expand that to sentences eventually and not just individual words. If we leave him to his own devices he will do nothing.

I have the same issue with the NT 8 year old. I know she's NT but it's like pulling teeth with her too. I think some of her issues are related to self confidence and not liking to reread her work. So we sit with her too. She can write a story with 10 of her 20 spelling words and have 1/2 the words mispelled. When you ask her how to spell the words she knows them but somehow it gets lost going down onto the paper.

I'm sure the "rules" will eventually change and we'll have to try something else.

In the mean time we keep plugging away and looking for the light at the end of the tunnel (which would be our trip to Disney at the end of April)

As far as decompression time. Our kids don't get out of school until 4:15 (start at 9:00). They don't ride the bus so on nights they don't have activities they are home by 4:30.

 

[Schmeck]

Becky,

He probably does not view your frustration as a logical basis. The whole concept of cooperation is a social one so that rarely works. His care and concern for you will have an impact, but if he cannot view the “rationality” of the underlying issues even that is transitory.

Cooperation can be seen in the logical sense that no one can do everything, and some tasks are too big to handle by oneself to get done in the needed time frame. People need to work together to get a big project done on time.

For example, it takes 3 students to clean and set all the tables at the restaurant in the time alloted so that the restaurant can open on time. Options such as opening the restaurant later would mean people being frustrated that they could not eat at the time they expected to, and starting to set the tables earlier would mean the students would have to miss an activity they enjoy at school that happens before table setting.

A child needs to cooperate with a parent because there is a time frame alloted to get homework done, and there are more tasks that need to be seen to after the homework time. When a child cooperates with a parent then the work gets done on time and other activities can happen. A flowchart can help explain this to a child.

 

[BeckyScott]

Interesting point.

Neither DS has a good understanding of time passing, which may be contributing to it all. They get upset pretty easily when time has run out, or when it doesn't go fast enough. And they seem to think that somehow I can control time passing. (oh don't I wish! Honey, if I could control that, I'd be about 10 years younger!)

We use timers all the time, both digital ones and Time Timers, done that for years, and it really only frustrates them more. It keeps things "honest" and that's why we keep doing it, no argument over who got a longer turn or how long until something happens. They both get that a typical tv show is 1/2 hour, so if I tell them we're going someplace in an hour, they understand that's in 2 tv shows. I had to really watch myself, because I tend to say "okay, in a minute" and of course that's interpreted literally (oops) and when they'll go watch the second hand, and they're back.

We are constantly running late in the mornings, and they have trouble with the concept that school is not waiting for them before it will start. Our oldest is in 5th grade, and he went to preschool, so we're talking about 7 years of history with the idea of school starting at a specific time.

I can't sit here and tell you when exactly 6 minutes has passed, or exactly an hour, but I can hit it halfway close. I try to give several warnings when there is something coming up. Yesterday we had a dr appt and I told them that morning, on the ride home from school, a half hour-ish before we had to leave, 2 minutes before we had to leave (which is the "get your stuff together" warning). In the meantime, at the half-hour warning, they ventured out to the backyard and started a "project" and then got upset because it was time to go.

Oldest DS also has an unreasonable idea of what can be accomplished within a time frame. He thinks that within 2 minutes (the last two minutes before it's time to leave) that he can finish getting dressed, put on shoes and socks, brush teeth, comb hair, take meds, get on a coat and backpack... in theory possible, but with him not possible.

I would imagine this warped sense of time could make things seem skewed. Most people, it seems like time passes slower when you're doing something you don't want to, faster when you're having fun. It is only the "logic" side of you that makes you look at the clock and realize that it really only took 3 minutes to wash the dishes or that really you can clean the bathroom in 5 minutes, because it seems like it's taken longer than that.

I have approached the kids (and DH) before with the idea that, as far as contributing to the chores, that when you divide up the work it makes it faster. That, for example, if it takes 20 minutes to clean the kitchen but all 4 of us help, it will only take 5 minutes. If you multiply that by all the rooms in the house, either one person has to spend hours cleaning, but if we all help it will take just a little time. (that is all somewhat theoretical, as if the kids are helping, one of us has to supervise them which makes it really not 1/4 of the time) I have also explained to oldest DS that if I have to do all the chores, that is less time I can play with him. But they are not very concious of the time passing, or of some very simple concepts... like if there is a laundry basket in the bathroom, there will be dirty clothes lying right next to it. All the time. Grrr. Or DS will put away his laundry just by taking the whole stack and shoving it on the shelves, and then can't find something later.

 

[mechurchlady]

I would time each task he has to do and write it down so he understands.
7:00 start
7:02 right sock is on, start left sock
7:04 left sock is on, start right shoe
7:05 right shoe is on: start left shoe
7:06 left shoe is on, start underwear
7:09 underwear on start pants
7:11 pants on, start shirt
7:12 pants on, take meds

This way he can see how long it takes to get everything done. Nice logical and no way to fight it. Also you need a last call to get dressed at 5 minutes before he needs to start. If it takes 20 minutes to do everything then last call at 30 minutes before hand because for him he is not putting the 2 minutes to the actual time needed to do the tasks. He hears Last Call and thinks that is the last time to start dressing instead of grabbing book bags and leaving the house. Communication problem it seems. Also you need to put some responsibility on his shoulders. "You are a big boy so here is how long it takes to do everything. I will call you about 10 minutes before you have to do those tasks. I know that you can get dressed and ready to leave without me yelling." Make it like he is a big boy and taking on responsibility.

 

[bookwormde]

Time perception is all tangled up in the EF differentials. When hyper focusing standard time perceptions just do not apply, real time is much longer than perceived time (sometimes by a factor of 10 or even more). So much of the need for “timing” is socially based that without the “logical” underpinning detailed down to the core ideas acceptance is a challenge.

On the practical side a big visual poster with times and events in plain view has been helpful for a lot of children (and adults). A dry erase board can be even better because they can fill a check box as items are accomplished.

Clothes basket is a good example, it is much more efficient to just drop clothes where you finish with them and when there are so many that you are out of clothes or tripping over them, then it is efficient to put them all in the basket at once. Anything else is a “social” reason.

bookwormde

 

[Schmeck]

Becky, how about investing in stopwatches, wristwatches, wall clocks, alarm clocks, etc? Can your boys tell time? Can they practice how long a minute is, by counting to 60? The students I work with have grasped the concept of time quite nicely, especially those that wear a watch/carry a cellphone.

bookwormde, is there any explanation besides 'it's social' to explain why someone doesn't do something? Remember, one person's logic is never identical to someone else's logic. So it's not a black/white, logic/social world. I think limiting anyone's success just because an issue appears to be not logical to one person is a great injustice to everyone else. I mean, is it going to be a black day for everyone because I saw 4 yellow cars in a row? (Mark Haddon)

 

[bookwormde]

Schemck,

You are correct that logical perceptions do differ between spectrum individuals, but these differences are only a small percentage of the perceptions differentials that come from neurotypical social distortions (or standards depending on your point of view).

I am a great believer in teaching our children skills so they can have the choice as to which, how much and when to apply them. Saying that the neorotypical “way” is the “right” way is to devalue what and who they are at the core.

We live in a world developed from and controlled by neurotypical social standards and live every day with that discriminatory situation, that is just reality at this point. It is a very difficult (almost impossible) thing for most neurotyipicals to divorce themselves from the innate prewired social “standards” that they were born with and have live with throughout their lives so it is never surprising that they cannot appreciate how illogical it is to spectrum individuals.

bookwormde

 

[BeckyScott]

But the clothes basket isn't a social situation.... (she says in her best whiny voice) I run a load a day, so it is emptied out daily. It's not a holding tank to make the bathroom pretty, it's a commuter bus that makes a daily run to the laundry room. He also leaves clothes laying all over his room (in actually very typical pre-teen style) and then tells me he doesn't have any clean pants. The social situation part of it, I guess?, is that Mommy's role is to do laundry, therefore, he doesn't need to mess with anything related to the laundry. And that's problematic. And it just gets under my skin because we do have a very small bathroom, the floor space in there is about 4 x 6, and only one bathroom, the clothes are literally right next to the basket. Touching it even. And if more than about three things get dropped there, it blocks the heater vent.

Oldest DS does have some major issues with, I don't know the exact name maybe visual discrimination?, at home I call it "where's Waldo". He is a visual person, and doesn't like things put away in his room, he likes everything out where he can see it. I *get* that. If something is put away out of sight, he forgets he has it. BUT. At the same time, he can't scan an area and spot an object. (where's Waldo) We have had several times in the past couple of weeks where he didn't turn in homework, and he will tell me it was time to turn it in and he couldn't find it and he looked all in his binder and he knows he did it (and I remember him doing it for homework). His teacher and the SpEd teacher I guess will give him time to find things, but they don't step in themselves and look for it. Anyway, I will look in his binder and there it is, right there, been there the whole time. And it's in a logical place, like the math worksheet is in the math folder. This is really frustrating for him, he realizes that he has a problem with that sort of thing. Or in the mornings, he will not be able to find his shoes. But the shoes are in one of two places-- on the shoe rack (where they're supposed to be) where I had him put them the night before, or they're on the floor of the living room if I forgot to have them tidy up the night before. It will be time to put on shoes, and I have watched him honestly step over his shoes and stand in the kitchen telling me he can't find his shoes. Our day is filled with "I can't find". And I can tell you, except for his room, our house is pretty tidy, no need for Clean House to stop by, and pretty sparse (a leftover result of needing to childproof it for youngest DS) so it's not like he is scanning loads of clutter looking for some small thing. And so maybe the Where's Waldo is in play with the laundry basket too?

Schmeck, oldest DS would love you right now, if he knew you suggested getting him a cell phone. And probably he will be getting one for his birthday this fall, because I'm tired of him borrowing mine all the time. See, I thought using the Time Timers would be a really great idea, they really are very neat and make more sense, but maybe it's the hyperfocusing that Bookwormde mentioned, they aren't working either. Plus the added distraction that they're more "mechanical" than a digital timer, so both kids were more interested in how they worked, rather than using them for their intended purpose. Maybe a white board is in order, though, not that it will necessarily help them track the passage of time, but it will lay out the schedule for the day.

 

[bookwormde]

Becky,

Yes for you the clothesbasket has practical (logical) implications, but he has no first hand impact from it. My version of dealing with this type of situation is to take him through the whole “factory process” of “clothes maintenance” logical step by logical step. Then explain what happens if he does not do his “work” in the factory process (he may have “logical” alternative that you may have to try to “explore”). Then comes the fun part (assuming he does not buy into it immediately) let him see the logical impact of his failing to contribute his “ work” in the process, or that his alternative system does not work assuming that is does not (no clean clothes to wear). Yes I know as a mom it is the ultimate social “no no” to let your child wear dirty clothes but if you want him to “buy in” the “experiment” must run it’s course. Sometimes this does not even work if the individual has no negative perception of the “system breakdown” (having to wear dirty clothes). In this case the next step is to use the impact on others methodology (mom is embarrassed, others do not like the smell etc). I have found that often even though the individual can not understand the logic of why something has an impact on others, if it is stated as strictly a perception which while not “logical” or “important” is still very real to the person being impacted.

Often the second phase is the first thing tried, and has transitory results but without the individual “analyzing” the system it rarely lasts. That is not to say that you would not need to remind him about the logical impact him not following the system occasionally but at least he understand the logical implications of the system and what happens when it “breaks down”.

On the finding things issue what happens is he does not get (and keep) a “picture” in his mind of what he is looking for and since visually we look at the “big picture” discriminating “small things” is challenging unless that picture is “right in front of us”.
Now if the room was exactly the same every day and something changed he could probably pick it out in an instant and tell you exactly what had changed. If it is a real serious issue take a picture and print it out of his shoes and when you want him to find them, hand it to him and see if that helps.

As with all issues it comes down to a behavior vs. skill issue, with learning about the “factory process” and applying it being the skill, which hopefully he can begin to “generalize” with your help to other situations.

It is funny that this system works on NT teenagers also since much of the “teenage phase” is about challenging social standards and conventions as they individualize, where as spectrum children experience this individualization from day 1.

bookwormde

 

[bookwormde]

C&g’sMama

My son’s teachers in trying different EL teaching systems tried one which work like this.

They computer print words with different sound letter combinations and cut each word so it is on a separate piece of paper, which have different sounds like “O”s in “hope” and “drop”. They generally combine 3 or 4 different sound combinations in the grouping of words and the total number of words is around 25-40. He then sorts them by sounds and then writes them down in list form. Since he has been doing this he has been getting 100s on his spelling quizzes, except for 1 week when time did not allow us to get to it and he score dropped precipitously.

I think the combination of the visual nature and logical patterning of the process and the fact that he is not required to be “creative” as he “uses” the words allows them to “imprint” much more effectively. He actually enjoys this “homework” if you can believe that.

He does misspell them occasionally when writing but it is a great improvement from before this teaching methodology was “discovered”

I know your 8 yo is primarily NT but if she has some visual characteristics it might help

bookwormde

 

[mechurchlady]

I feel like I am the only person around here besides bookewormde that understands logic versus socialization. Yes, a lot of it is about logic. The NT brain does what society says to do why the neurovariant does things based on logic.

Some of it is typical boy stuff but my mom would have left the clothes on the floor and let me stink for a while. Dad moved in when I was about 5 and he left stuff lying around the house as he had been a bachelor most of his life except two failed short marriages and another short marriage. Mother did not tolerate clothes strewn all over the house or wet towels on the floor but my bachelor dad did not see anything wrong with such things. He did get an ear full of learning, lol.

Becky you need some coffee, hugs and chocolates.

For me what is the big deal that I got a pile of dirty clothes in my bathroom. I buy hampers and they disappear. I gave up on having hampers. I bring them into the house and they are gone. I rather have the dirty clothes on the floor than fuss over trying to find a hamper that has disappeared.

Bookworm thanks for explaining bout not finding things as my Uncle could not find things and I cannot find things. I got a long list of misplaced things. I even have to have a second set of keys so that eventually I find one. If I focus on the thing like a little song then I remember.
keys keys got to find keys keys ooh butterfly.

 

[DisDreaminMom]

OK, I'm the "social one" I guess. I grew up with a "no-hamper" family, everything was always LOST or DIRTY- keys, eye glasses, clothes, etc. It was so upsetting for me. My big sister lost so many mittens, my mother sat us down when I was about 5 and pulled out a needle and thread and told us that if we kept losing mittens, she would sew them on our wrists- and pantomimed the action- I can still see it. I have NEVER lost the mate to a pair of gloves since. When my sister moved into my apartment during college, she had a box 10 or so single gloves and it made me cringe. She just didn't care about her stuff and nobody ever held her accountable.

Since I was 10 I cooked, cleaned, and did the grocery shopping (Mom would buy 10 pounds of bacon-and nothing else- Why? Because she wanted bacon. Who needs to eat anything else? Dad started giving me $100 and dropping me off at the store when I complained too much one day and then liked actually having food in the house). My sister never did chores because she was always "studying" and my parents were too engrossed in their jobs.

Anyway, here is what we do in our house now that I'm in charge and make the rules: Clothes that are dirty come off and get put in laundry room immediately- if you miss the hamper then just try to get it close- it's more important to get it in the actual room. If you want to take a shower, take off clothes and hot foot it to laundry room to drop them off. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. If I find dirty clothes on the floor in the house, all activity ceases until offending owner puts clothes in proper place. (Adults get a hamper in the bedroom, for modesty reasons). After much nagging and reminders and being mean- DS- the Aspie one- or Mr. Rules, as we call him- is the one to point out and resolve infractions.

Keys, backpacks, hats, gloves, ,coats, etc. all have a HOME and those are the house RULES. If it does not have a HOME, then it doesn't belong in the house or we need to convene a meeting to decide where the HOME for that object will be. (There are group homes- i.e. toys in the toy box, and individual homes, i.e. your coat hook and shelf for your shoes). If you do not put your belongings in their HOME, then I am NOT responsible for assisting in the search or funding the replacement for the item.

The biggest house rule is that you can play, have fun, etc. but if you can't keep your stuff in the vicinity of where it belongs, then it goes in the trash or to Goodwill. Because if you don't care about it, then most likely I wasted my money and you didn't need it or will get it ever again.

Funny thing is, DS is the one who follows this best (appreciates it, even, because he couldn't find a ten foot monster in front of his own face but he knows where things' HOMES are and so he doesn't get frustrated unless somebody else moves his stuff). It's NT DD that has the most trouble keeping her stuff in the right place. I think DS and I see a picture of item in it's home but DD just thinks of item not being location specific, so she loses everything. Very frustrating.

I guess without sounding like I'm really OCD (because I don't think I am), my point here is that if there is not an ironclad system in place for where to put items, then habits won't be formed and you are going to get frustrated. That being said, YOUR ideal place for something to live may not be your kid's best place, so let them chose. ("Where can you put your dirty laundry every time you take it off? Laundry room or bathroom or closet? You pick and if I find it anywhere else, it's mine")

Let them take ownership of the process- I give my kids the choice and then they take responsibility. If the house gets out of hand and stuff is everywhere, even the kids notice it and get frustrated. I don't care as much about them keeping a totally clean room, as I do about them respecting the "common" areas of the house.


BTW, my sister's house is absolutely scary and her children have no respect for their stuff or hers. They pulled the shower plumbing out of the wall, broke toilets in half, the walls are painted and colored, furniture is broken, garbage is everywhere, food is on the walls. It's so gross. They are upper class professionals with "normal" children the same age as mine (6 and 8) living in a very expensive house and they trash everything. It's impossible to think we are related. Even my kids are shocked when we visit there. My DS said after last vist, "Mom, their house has garbage everywhere and no one can ever find anything!" My work here is through...

My kid may think he's really a French Poodle (I had IEP meeting yesterday and the Speech teacher asked me how long we lived in France Several other teachers in the meeting laughed out loud) but by God, his room is relatively clean and he can always find his shoes.

 

[DisDreaminMom]

oh, and I'm sad because I had to cancel Spring Break run down to WDW with just me and the kids and our previously scheduled trip in June( too many snow days). Now I'm grumpy. I might have a tantrum. Seriously.

 

[mechurchlady]

Let me pad chat and let you have a tantrum. It is so not fair that you cannot go to WDW. You did explain that it is therapeutic and good for the kids.

Hugs tight DisDreaminMom and snugs her and hopes things will change as you need a vacation. You are a great mom and deserve a break. It is the school's problem that they did not melt the snow so kids could go to school.

Have some eclairs, beignets, hot fudge sundaes and brownies on me.
big hugs and sorry about the cancelled trip.

 

[bookwormde]

Sorry about the snow days messing things up, We are leaving the day after school is out so I am living nervously, but so far we have only missed 1 snow day so it would take really bad storm to mess us up. My big worry is how the kids would react it I had to cancel. I can not imagine them trying to teach my children when they were supposed to be at WDW, I would not want to attempt it.

bookwormde