Are you for or against plastic shopping bag bans?

[AurumPunzel]

I'm strongly against bans, especially from a scientific and political point of view, while at the same time, I'm more in favour of charges and improving recycling of plastic bags. The issue that's often conveniently ignored with bans is the carbon footprint of many alternatives, especially paper bags and reusable bags made out of more substantial plastics such as NWPP (non-woven polypropylene) and RPET (recycled PET from bottles), and cotton, which requires around 131 reuses before they can become better than a plastic bag reused at least once. And that links into the point that's often missed: that plastic bags are the most widely-reused 'single-use' plastic in the world, and has more reuse potential than a polystyrene takeout container, or a paper bag. The other issue with reusable bags is the potential to harbour nasty diseases. When San Francisco's ban went into force years ago, food poisoning cases skyrocketed, and many hospitals in the area saw an increase in admissions due to food poisoning caused by non-disinfected reusable bags. Another problem with reusable bags is that 95% of them (especially those $1 tote bags) are often manufactured in the Far East, and often in questionable sweatshop conditions, which leads to a concern that people will start to scrutinise what labour is being used to make them, and if the quality of them is cheap and nasty, there's the potential for them to become the new single-use bag, thus causing even more pollution than an irresponsibly-discarded plastic bag. The trouble is that most bans are an example of feel-good virtue signalling conducted purely as an 'eco fad', and with the current onslaught of bans, this will only end up backfiring massively and causing even more environmental damage, particularly as there's also concern about global warming.

 

[North of Mouse]

And so it goes - on and on - for and against - with each side adamant in their reasons! No one way is perfect or right/wrong.

 

[AurumPunzel]

And so it goes - on and on - for and against - with each side adamant in their reasons! No one way is perfect or right/wrong.

That's the issue. Plastic bags are a double-edged sword when it comes to modern-day environmentalism, and the trouble is that most recent bans are a troubling sign of yet another 'eco fad' season that lacks scientific reasoning, and are just yet another example of bandwagoning purely for the sake of appeasing the anti-plastic crowd, who likewise only have flawed evidence to support banning.

 

[Imzadi]

The other issue with reusable bags is the potential to harbour nasty diseases. When San Francisco's ban went into force years ago, food poisoning cases skyrocketed, and many hospitals in the area saw an increase in admissions due to food poisoning caused by non-disinfected reusable bags.

YES!!! Is no one else on this thread old enough to remember the FIRST time "recycling" was in? It was in the early 80's. Sometime after the gas crisis and realizing we shouldn't be so dependent on foreign countries for our gas. Then we had a huge craze to recycle things. The reusable cloth bags became popular then. People DID try to use them at first. Only, after a while, they became too soiled, especially with nasty meat juices, sticky substances that leaked in the bottom of the bags. No one wanted to toss them in the laundry with their good clothes as those bags were nasty & possibly deadly or just plain gross.

THEN came the problems of the (clean) bags wearing out. Some seams ripped right apart. Then the handles would fray or fall off, or fray into two parts. Then came the HOLES. Holes in all the corners, getting bigger and bigger that stuff would fall through. People ended up throwing them away. There are probably ones still pretty much intact in landfills TODAY because they haven't biodegraded down enough. There were good reasons reusable cloth bags went out of fashion the FIRST time.

 

[Mickeynutty]

Against the ban!

 

[Colleen27]

Interesting thing popped up on my Facebook feed today. A local charitable group is soliciting plastic bags to make sleeping mats for the homeless. Donations are, apparently, way down... I wonder if that is because more people are using reusable bags, even without a local ban/tax in place? Or if it is because the thinner bags that local stores rolled out over the last few years break so often that people just don't have plastic bags piling up the way they used to?

 

[cabanafrau]

YES!!! Is no one else on this thread old enough to remember the FIRST time "recycling" was in? It was in the early 80's. Sometime after the gas crisis and realizing we shouldn't be so dependent on foreign countries for our gas. Then we had a huge craze to recycle things. The reusable cloth bags became popular then. People DID try to use them at first. Only, after a while, they became too soiled, especially with nasty meat juices, sticky substances that leaked in the bottom of the bags. No one wanted to toss them in the laundry with their good clothes as those bags were nasty & possibly deadly or just plain gross.

THEN came the problems of the (clean) bags wearing out. Some seams ripped right apart. Then the handles would fray or fall off, or fray into two parts. Then came the HOLES. Holes in all the corners, getting bigger and bigger that stuff would fall through. People ended up throwing them away. There are probably ones still pretty much intact in landfills TODAY because they haven't biodegraded down enough. There were good reasons reusable cloth bags went out of fashion the FIRST time.

It was impossible to run a small load of wash, specifically to run the bags through the washer alone? It was impossible to use a needle and thread and mend some holes, or even use a patch? There was really absolutely nothing to do but throw the bags out?

Not much biodegrades in landfills because of the way they're designed to protect things from leaching into surrounding soil and groundwater. I wonder how much waste cloth bags from the seventies impacted waste and pollution, versus the paper and plastic bags of the day that are also sitting in the same landfills?

 

[jsmith]

I find this whole debate interesting. In the late 70's I worked in a grocery. Our paper bags then were much sturdier than those now and I grew up re using them for all kinds of things at home. Paper is made from trees ( renewable) and is biodegradable. Manufacture does use water and in the 70s created pollution. Plastic bags are made from petroleum ( non-renewable) do not biodegrade and involve more complicated resource extraction and production. I have NEVER understood how we made that transition as an environmental measure-and 40 years later it clearly was not the best decision. I also think bans are just a knee jerk reaction to a much deeper problem that needs to be fixed.

 

[wenrob]

YES!!! Is no one else on this thread old enough to remember the FIRST time "recycling" was in? It was in the early 80's. Sometime after the gas crisis and realizing we shouldn't be so dependent on foreign countries for our gas. Then we had a huge craze to recycle things. The reusable cloth bags became popular then. People DID try to use them at first. Only, after a while, they became too soiled, especially with nasty meat juices, sticky substances that leaked in the bottom of the bags. No one wanted to toss them in the laundry with their good clothes as those bags were nasty & possibly deadly or just plain gross.

THEN came the problems of the (clean) bags wearing out. Some seams ripped right apart. Then the handles would fray or fall off, or fray into two parts. Then came the HOLES. Holes in all the corners, getting bigger and bigger that stuff would fall through. People ended up throwing them away. There are probably ones still pretty much intact in landfills TODAY because they haven't biodegraded down enough. There were good reasons reusable cloth bags went out of fashion the FIRST time.

I’ve already said I’m neutral on the subject but this is a little over the top. Toss them in the wash after you go grocery shopping. Repair them when needed. If there’s a ban forthcoming then people need to learn to adapt.

 

[Colleen27]

I'm strongly against bans, especially from a scientific and political point of view, while at the same time, I'm more in favour of charges and improving recycling of plastic bags. The issue that's often conveniently ignored with bans is the carbon footprint of many alternatives, especially paper bags and reusable bags made out of more substantial plastics such as NWPP (non-woven polypropylene) and RPET (recycled PET from bottles), and cotton, which requires around 131 reuses before they can become better than a plastic bag reused at least once. And that links into the point that's often missed: that plastic bags are the most widely-reused 'single-use' plastic in the world, and has more reuse potential than a polystyrene takeout container, or a paper bag. The other issue with reusable bags is the potential to harbour nasty diseases. When San Francisco's ban went into force years ago, food poisoning cases skyrocketed, and many hospitals in the area saw an increase in admissions due to food poisoning caused by non-disinfected reusable bags. Another problem with reusable bags is that 95% of them (especially those $1 tote bags) are often manufactured in the Far East, and often in questionable sweatshop conditions, which leads to a concern that people will start to scrutinise what labour is being used to make them, and if the quality of them is cheap and nasty, there's the potential for them to become the new single-use bag, thus causing even more pollution than an irresponsibly-discarded plastic bag. The trouble is that most bans are an example of feel-good virtue signalling conducted purely as an 'eco fad', and with the current onslaught of bans, this will only end up backfiring massively and causing even more environmental damage, particularly as there's also concern about global warming.

I do agree that there are more logical places for bans to start - around me, a lot of restaurants are phasing out styrofoam in favor of either paper containers (like old-fashioned Chinese restaurants use) or reuseable plastic, and more and more are moving to an on-request model for straws rather than just dropping them on the table for everyone. Those are both lower-hanging fruit, I think, with fewer potential downsides than plastic bag bans.

But at the same time, I think a lot of the skepticism about reusable bags is undeserved and based mostly on critiques of the cheapest possible alternatives. I have a lot of reuseable bags that have seen more than a hundred uses, and washing them regularly keeps them from getting nasty. There is also the middle ground, which I often use myself, of putting meats in plastic while using cloth for all of the canned goods and produce and other products that don't have the same bacterial concerns. That is still a huge reduction in plastic bag use. And carbon footprint is only one measure of a product's environmental impact; to say that paper or cloth bags are worse because of a higher carbon footprint while ignoring the plastics getting caught in our trees, clogging our ditches and choking our fisheries is to make a deliberately disingenuous defense of the status quo.

 

[tasha99]

I'm against the ban, but we've had one for a few years in my city. I drive over to the next city to shop, because I want the bags for kitty litter. I should just start buying the small bags to save the trip (it's about 25 miles round trip from my house to the grocery store I go to that has bags).

 

[Tinky-Bell]

I'm against the ban because I reuse every single plastic bag I ever get. I use grocery bags as garbage bags on a daily basis, and also use them to dispose of cat litter (triple bagged because it's heavy and I don't want the bags to rip open). I live in a condo and we have a garbage chute. This chute is not very large, so you can't use large bags. Grocery bags are perfect. If plastic bags are banned everywhere, I would have to start purchasing plastic garbage bags, so how does that save the planet? If they start using biodegradable bags, rather than ban them altogether, that would be great!

 

[mrodgers]

Interesting thing popped up on my Facebook feed today. A local charitable group is soliciting plastic bags to make sleeping mats for the homeless. Donations are, apparently, way down... I wonder if that is because more people are using reusable bags, even without a local ban/tax in place? Or if it is because the thinner bags that local stores rolled out over the last few years break so often that people just don't have plastic bags piling up the way they used to?

My mother's church collects plastic grocery bags to make these sleep mats or blankets for the homeless.

As to why they are soliciting for the bags, I think it's more of the increase in homeless population than less people using the bags. Seems the less people use the bags, the more bags the cashiers use to pack your stuff if you do still use them. I said earlier (or in a similar thread on another forum) the last time I was in Walmart, I bought 9 items and while doing other stuff waiting, I didn't notice that the cashier put each of my 9 individual items in a double plastic bag. Walked out of there with 9 items and 18 bags to reuse or dispose of since those 18 bags will last a long time along with my other fantastic collection that I already have.

 

[wvjules]

Am I the only one that doesn't use grocery bags in my bathroom trash cans? I don't use anything. I put trash in them, then dump into large trashcan when time to take it out.

 

[Floridaman999]

My local news had an article about Walmart today where they are offering multi use bags for 98 cents starting next month.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Am I the only one that doesn't use grocery bags in my bathroom trash cans? I don't use anything. I put trash in them, then dump into large trashcan when time to take it out.

The only thing inside the house that doesn't have something in it is the trash can inside the house that we use for recycling. We have 2 trash cans tandem in the kitchen in the pull out drawer/cabinet. One is used for trash the other is used recycling. I don't like a bare trash can because of the nature of things that get thrown in the the trash. Sure I clean out the trash cans inside the house from time to time but I'd be doing that a lot lot more if the can was bare with all the icky stuff that gets thrown in there. But I don't think either way is a problem it's just what you prefer.

 

[Julie's Haircut]

I said earlier (or in a similar thread on another forum) the last time I was in Walmart, I bought 9 items and while doing other stuff waiting, I didn't notice that the cashier put each of my 9 individual items in a double plastic bag. Walked out of there with 9 items and 18 bags to reuse or dispose of since those 18 bags will last a long time along with my other fantastic collection that I already have.

Are Walmart cashiers trained to use a ridiculous amount of bags for every customer? I'm pretty sure they don't get a bonus for the quantity of bags used. They try to put practically everything in a bag, including gallons of milk, 4 pound bags of dry cat food, 30 pack cases of wet cat food, large containers of liquid detergent that already have a carrying handle, etc. And, yes, even with smaller items the often use an individual bag for a single item.

Even if I tell them "no bag" when they scan an item, they often start to bag it and I have to repeat the request. Some ignore me even after the second request.

Usually I use self checkouts at Walmart to avoid this. But occasionally they are closed so I have to go into a manned station. And I hate those circular revolving bagging devices. I'd rather they have belts like most supermarkets so I can bag my own items.

(Last week I was waiting with our cart while DW used the rest room at Walmart and noticed a cashier scanning items. He was a guy probably in his 70s and he was twisting and jiggling every item over the scanner. Almost every item will scan by simply passing the bar code over. But no, every single item had him doing some kind of weird hand dance. It was amusing to watch but I bet his scan items per minute rate sucks.)

 

[Imzadi]

It was impossible to run a small load of wash, specifically to run the bags through the washer alone? It was impossible to use a needle and thread and mend some holes, or even use a patch? There was really absolutely nothing to do but throw the bags out?

’ve already said I’m neutral on the subject but this is a little over the top. Toss them in the wash after you go grocery shopping. Repair them when needed. If there’s a ban forthcoming then people need to learn to adapt.

Obviously people didn't do that. The FACT that we as a society stopped using cloth bags and embraced the easy to carry, use & toss plastic grocery bags seems to support what I said. Although my hypotheses as to WHY we, as a society abandoned cloth bags may be incorrect. The fact is: we did. I was a teen at the time, not an anthropologist - then or now. I recall, in my own home, we did mend the first few bags. But, they kept wearing down or abrading. And we washed the first few, but that seemed to use as much energy & resources as were supposed to be saving.

That was the latter quarter of the 20th century. We are now in the first quarter of the 21st century, with some of the most advanced technological gadgets to date. Do you really think people are going to be talking on their Bluetooth headphones while doing Little House On The Prairie, type of mending on their worn cloth bags? I don't think so. Not saying it's right. While I'm trying to reduce as much waste as possible and reuse the plastic bags I have, I am waiting for the first sturdy, many-use, biodegradable plastic bags to be invented. We will once again abandon those cloth bags. When that happens, for the first time, I will resurrect a zombie thread telling everyone, "I told you so."

I find this whole debate interesting. In the late 70's I worked in a grocery. Our paper bags then were much sturdier than those now and I grew up re using them for all kinds of things at home. Paper is made from trees ( renewable) and is biodegradable. Manufacture does use water and in the 70s created pollution. Plastic bags are made from petroleum ( non-renewable) do not biodegrade and involve more complicated resource extraction and production. I have NEVER understood how we made that transition as an environmental measure-and 40 years later it clearly was not the best decision. I also think bans are just a knee jerk reaction to a much deeper problem that needs to be fixed.

As I recall, and I was a teen at the time, so my recollection may not be accurate, but there was a huge push to save the trees. Turns out, all that tree logging was stripping the land and trees weren't growing at a rate that we were using & tossing paper products. It was the start of recycling paper. But, back then, it had a bad stigma, as no one understood how "clean" recycled paper pulp can get. Few people wanted to use "recycled" paper. The Internet hadn't been invented yet. There wasn't a lot of research out. And the technology wasn't as successful as it is now. When items were made with recycled content, the labels used to say, "Made with 10% recycled materials," vs, now, where the percentage is much higher. Back then, it seemed like an excess amount of energy was used to just recycle that 10%.

Moving to plastics was probably also a knee jerk reaction. I vaguely remember being told switching to disposable plastic cups & bags was a good thing as people could reuse plastic cups & bags many times before tossing. Of course, as plastic items became so plentiful and CHEAP, no one reused the disposable plastics again. They just immediately tossed them as it was cheaper and more convenient to simply buy another stack. Walk down the aisles of many of our dollar stores. There is more plastic junk that people need or even want. Our First World mentality of using & wasting created a greater problem than the original one.

 

[VandVsmama]

Against

 

[AurumPunzel]

But at the same time, I think a lot of the skepticism about reusable bags is undeserved and based mostly on critiques of the cheapest possible alternatives. I have a lot of reuseable bags that have seen more than a hundred uses, and washing them regularly keeps them from getting nasty. There is also the middle ground, which I often use myself, of putting meats in plastic while using cloth for all of the canned goods and produce and other products that don't have the same bacterial concerns. That is still a huge reduction in plastic bag use. And carbon footprint is only one measure of a product's environmental impact; to say that paper or cloth bags are worse because of a higher carbon footprint while ignoring the plastics getting caught in our trees, clogging our ditches and choking our fisheries is to make a deliberately disingenuous defense of the status quo.

The trouble is that the skepticism is justified based on science and the fact that many argue that they reuse the plastic bags as well, and that's reflected in 2 LCAs published by two environmental protection agencies: England's Environment Agency, and their Danish counterpart, the Environment Protection Agency (Miljøstyrelsen). They both established that many types of reusable bags (especially those made out of cotton and more substantial plastics such as 05 PP and 01 PET) need dozens, if not hundreds (possibly even thousands) of reuses before they can be better than a lightweight plastic bag reused at least once. The issue with plastic bags getting entangled in nature can easily be mitigated if people were more responsible in their use, and were educated on how to reuse them at home for various tasks, or the provision of recycling them was improved, since single-stream recycling centres often have difficulty processing them properly, whilst supermarket recycling points result in them being taken to a specialist facility that recycles them into various things, including plastic timber for construction, which is often ignored by greenleft politicians who pontificate on banning them.

If there’s a ban forthcoming then people need to learn to adapt.

The issue is that people won't, and even if they get used to paying for paper or ban-compliant reusable plastic bags, chances are is that it won't really make much difference as to the amount of waste generated. Since California's statewide ban came into force 3 years ago, it's only made a 0.2% difference in the amount of plastic bags dumped, since the now-banned bags were replaced with thicker ban-compliant bags that take longer to degrade, and replacing them with an even worse bag leads to a paradox of problem>solution>problem>solution>problem ad infinitum. The real solution is to start exploring bioplastics and make them more viable, while improving recycling of existing plastic bags.