An end to tipping?

[rotlex]

Then don't go to buffets. Problem solved.

Not that simple when 50% off the places you like to eat, especially when on a Disney vacation, are buffets. Nope. Simple answer is, simply refuse to pay an 18% "surcharge" at buffets, and total the bill up to what I think a buffet tip should be.

 

[MrsDuck]

I hate required tipping.

 

[daughtersrus]

My opinion is that employers should pay their employees and adjust the cost of the product accordingly if need be.

 

[compwiz1202]

Not that simple when 50% off the places you like to eat, especially when on a Disney vacation, are buffets. Nope. Simple answer is, simply refuse to pay an 18% "surcharge" at buffets, and total the bill up to what I think a buffet tip should be.

I haven't been to Disney in forever. How much does the wait staff do at buffets there? Some buffets here in PA they will refill your drinks and keep clearing your dirty dishes, and some they will be pretty much non-existent. So that would determine how much of a tip I would leave for a buffet.

 

[kaytieeldr]

This is exactly the problem with tipping. It has nothing to do with finer restaurants vs. cheap restaurants as was mentioned earlier. Even in the same restaurant, I may order a sirloin steak for my kids for $10, a ribeye for myself for $18, and my wife will get fillet for $25. Mine I want medium rare and the others want well done. There is no difference in cooking a steak, only the cost of the cut is different. Thus, why is a tip on the $25 fillet larger than the tip on the ribeye?

The server does nothing different to the family of 4 who sits at one table and has a $30 bill as opposed to the next table family of 4 who has a $60 bill. Only those 2 tables for the hour nets $18/hour just with the tips. Pretty darn good wage, significantly higher than minimum wage as well as higher than most normal jobs, and doubtful that these 2 tables are the only ones they have for that hour.

If only. You seem confident that (a) both parties will tip greater than 20% and (b) that the server keeps all the tips.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Sorry--and at the risk of going off-topic, but a pet peeve of mine--the above is not true. As the author of this very interesting blog pointed out in his first book, if that were the case, you'd tip at the beginning of the meal, not the end.

Again, sorry--carry on.

Praying Colonel, you're my hero!! Thank you for the fact, and the blog link!!!

 

[kaytieeldr]

I don't care what they are doing before hours or when they are just standing around (that is called "not working" and I don't get paid to just stand around and not work...)

Ah, but perhaps you should care. Can we agree you realize the restaurant doesn't just automatically prepare itself for the next party, or the next seating, or the following day... That your server and their coworkers are preparing a great dining experience for you even before you arrive? Even of you're there at opening?

In reality, the tip % calculation should be: minimum wage X hours of service / meal cost. That gets the staff minimum wage for the time they are there working for you as the customer and anything above that would be a tip for exceptional service. In the example of a $60 meal, that gets the server 9% tip for wage, or $5.40 for 45 minutes worth of work, which equates to $7.25 (I think) minimum wage that is here where I am. Anything beyond that is an actual tip for exceptional service.

In reality, it's not up to any of us to decide what the tip calculation "should" be, or how anyone who is not us or employed by us "should" be compensated. Anyone who doesn't agree with tipping as it exists in this country has options: fast food, don't dine out, find restaurants that don't allow tipping...

By the government taxing staff with the expectation of getting 15% tips, that means that the government has set the minimum income for waitressing at a higher income than minimum wage.

The government doesn't have this expectation; not every server will make minimum wage from customers every shift (or even week); and since many, many, many men work in this field as well - you might want to expand your vocabulary from 'waitressing' .

 

[kaytieeldr]

Don't believe everything that you read on disboards. As explained in this IRS publication, servers are taxed based on their actual amount of tips that they report to their employer and to the IRS.

Because everything everywhere is cash only and both the employers and the IRS trust every worker in the country to be 100% truthful, right?

You've never worked as a restaurant accountant or bookkeeper, have you?

 

[kaytieeldr]

The problem is that you are using statistics for all wait staff everywhere. No one is arguing that the high school kid working at Mr Gatti's makes $18 an hour. However, your position that the hypothetical server makes only $9.80 an hour doesn't pass the smell test.

This person gets two bucks an hour from his boss and is tipped $15 by one of his tables for a 45 minute meal. Presumably, he also gets tips from the other tables that he is assigned during the same period. It is simply not possible for all of this to add up to less than ten dollars per hour.

That being said, a person who doesn't earn a living wage waiting tables should look for a job that pays a living wage and not merely expect people to tip more.

It's not Acklander's position, it's Labor Board statistics. Facts. Numbers. The average total hourly wage earned by a restaurant server in this country is apparently $9.80. That's taking into account all servers in all restaurants where tipping is part of the hourly wage calculation.

It appears you, like mrrodgers, are considering only the time the server is actually serving you - as if they magically appear at your table to be at your beck and call the instant you need them, and disappear from existence when you walk out the door.

You're using that very brief snapshot, that hour or so, to determine that their actions, business, sales (and so tips) are consistent with that hour. That's impossible and unrealistic. Just because YOU don't need them to wait on YOU when you're not in the restaurant, they still have a job to perform.

 

[OceanAnnie]

It's not Acklander's position, it's Labor Board statistics. Facts. Numbers. The average total hourly wage earned by a restaurant server in this country is apparently $9.80. That's taking into account all servers in all restaurants where tipping is part of the hourly wage calculation.

It appears you, like mrrodgers, are considering only the time the server is actually serving you - as if they magically appear at your table to be at your beck and call the instant you need them, and disappear from existence when you walk out the door.

You're using that very brief snapshot, that hour or so, to determine that their actions, business, sales (and so tips) are consistent with that hour. That's impossible and unrealistic. Just because YOU don't need them to wait on YOU when you're not in the restaurant, they still have a job to perform.

The job the waitstaff performs for their customers is exactly what they are tipped for. The customer is not their employer, unless you want to look at that one snapshot in time.

 

[mom2of2]

Not that simple when 50% off the places you like to eat, especially when on a Disney vacation, are buffets. Nope. Simple answer is, simply refuse to pay an 18% "surcharge" at buffets, and total the bill up to what I think a buffet tip should be.

The only way at Disney that you will get the 18% off is if you speak to the manager and then it will only be removed if you have a valid reason. Because you refuse to based on what you think it should be is not a valid reason and you will have to pay the 18%.

As for the DDP when it included tips, guests complained that servers were guareenteed a tip so they didn't work as hard. WDW did away with the tip included due to that. Now the reason people don't want to tip correctly is because the DDP is too expensive...we can't win

 

[tvguy]

My opinion is that employers should pay their employees and adjust the cost of the product accordingly if need be.

A valid point. Only flaw, people like you and I won't pay that adjusted price. Which is at the center of the whole Made in America versus Made in China debate. That's why American made products are rare, and everything is stamped "Made In China"

 

[tvguy]

ok, if you google for labor board statistics it shows the average wait person makes $9.80 an hour once you add in the tips. Yes, there will be people who make more than this (higher end restaurants, big cities) and there will be people who make less than this (I'd guess your breakfast type restaurants and coffee shop type places) but when all is lumped together, they average $9.80 an hour.
Maybe you don't count the time they're setting up for your arrival, but I'm sure the people working it do; and you may not count what you have to tip out to the support staff - but that time and expenses are there - you jus can't say, I'm in a restaurant and pay an 18$ tip for 45 minutes, so therefore they make over 18$ an hour. It's not accurate.

Okay, honest question here, but putting on the flame retardant suit . Are the skills necessary to wait tables truly worth much more than minimum wage?

 

[Acklander]

Okay, honest question here, but putting on the flame retardant suit . Are the skills necessary to wait tables truly worth much more than minimum wage?

You've never waited on tables, have you? LOL

Not everyone can do it, that's for sure. I haven't done it in over 20 years so not sure if much has changed. It's hard work, and you've got to know how to juggle quite a bit with a smile on your face. If it only paid minimum wage, I probably would have chosen easier work instead.
And the professionals - the ones who make the really good money - many have taken courses in wines, French, Italian, etc... as well as numerous hospitality classes.

 

[WowLookAtThat]

I do tip however I only will when the service is good. If a waiter ignores me when I ask for a check or stands around talking with the other waiters and rolls his eyes when I ask for a clean spoon I am not going to tip.

 

[tvguy]

You've never waited on tables, have you? LOL
.

Nope. Many minimum wage jobs, but never had a tipped position.
I was an armed guard at a department store, had to pay for the 40 hour training class to carry a gun, and the gun. All to earn the minimum wage of $1.75 an hour.

Decided to get into radio. Safer. But had to study for a 3rd Class FCC license, and take a test. All for $2.25 an hour (only because minimum wage had gone up from the time of my security job).

 

[Planogirl]

Okay, honest question here, but putting on the flame retardant suit . Are the skills necessary to wait tables truly worth much more than minimum wage?

Working with the public day in and day out and doing so successfully definitely takes a certain skill.

 

[cornflake]

Okay, honest question here, but putting on the flame retardant suit . Are the skills necessary to wait tables truly worth much more than minimum wage?

Depends. In a diner or a chain restaurant, probably not, though in a busy place takes a lot more organization and coping skills and the ability to deal with five full tables of people all wanting stuff at once and running food out and etc. than like, working the register in a big box or fast food place. It's also more physically taxing than a lot of min. wage jobs (though certainly not all). However, more comparable, skill wise.

Waiting tables in decent to high end restauarants? Totally different animal, the higher you climb, which is why the waitstaff jobs there are much harder to get and end up paying much more.

In a nice restaurant, a server likely has to know the menu inside and out, and it changes every day, know how the dishes are prepared and what's in them, know the ingredients and what they are (like, you can't just say 'with capers' and not know what they are because someone might ask you what they are), know something about drinks because you have to communicate with the bartender and get drinks from them and communicate with the sommelier. You should know how dishes (and sometimes beverages) go together, etc.

You may well have to be able to memorize orders (lots of places don't allow waitstaff to write orders) which is hard, especially when it's large tops with persnickity people, communicate much more specific requests to the kitchen, deal with the kitchen much more, as they're not just slopping from vats a la Olive Garden, but timing everything specificially and you have to be on point... you have to do more specific side work, know more general stuff - a four-course place setting with a napkin folded into a swan isn't rocket science but it's not a fast food register either, etc.

As someone else noted, the highest-end places have waitstaff who have trained, taken courses in serving, presentation, languages, etc., to better serve and communicate with their customers to provide a whole experience. At that level, it's a career not a job.

I do tip however I only will when the service is good. If a waiter ignores me when I ask for a check or stands around talking with the other waiters and rolls his eyes when I ask for a clean spoon I am not going to tip.

I really don't get the... what seems like searching for any excuse not to tip. The waiter talked to other waiters, no tip. The waiter didn't talk to my kid, no tip... I don't get it; it just seems like... a way to feel powerful over people by taking their salary over such petty little things.

Actual bad service, I'll reduce a tip too; no one is saying otherwise. Talking to other people, not hopping to immediately, not being as engaging as someone would like, that's not bad service, imo.

 

[WowLookAtThat]

I really don't get the... what seems like searching for any excuse not to tip. The waiter talked to other waiters, no tip. The waiter didn't talk to my kid, no tip... I don't get it; it just seems like... a way to feel powerful over people by taking their salary over such petty little things.

Actual bad service, I'll reduce a tip too; no one is saying otherwise. Talking to other people, not hopping to immediately, not being as engaging as someone would like, that's not bad service, imo.

And I don't like paying for bad services. If that is an excuse it is a valid one. I never remarked on how I dislike waiters talking to each other (that was a far reaching assumption.) but rather the fact that a customer shouldn't have to deal with a waiter's bad attitude when asking for a simple courtesy such as a clean spoon. I never said that the waiter had to talk to my child or even be engaging but when a customer requires the check or some help the waiter should at least provide that. A tip is a courtesy and not a right. It is a polite courtesy given when someone does a competent job. If the waiter is competent or I notice they are overworked (especially here on the weekends ) and on normal times I do tip. I understand that waiting tables is a hard job (did it myself for a year) but there is also an understanding that a waiter is basically a customer service type of job and if the customer is treated rudely or given attitude for a simple request then the tip is little to nil.

 

[cornflake]

And I don't like paying for bad services. If that is an excuse it is a valid one. I never remarked on how I dislike waiters talking to each other (that was a far reaching assumption.) but rather the fact that a customer shouldn't have to deal with a waiter's bad attitude when asking for a simple courtesy such as a clean spoon. I never said that the waiter had to talk to my child or even be engaging but when a customer requires the check or some help the waiter should at least provide that. A tip is a courtesy and not a right. It is a polite courtesy given when someone does a competent job. If the waiter is competent or I notice they are overworked (especially here on the weekends ) and on normal times I do tip. I understand that waiting tables is a hard job (did it myself for a year) but there is also an understanding that a waiter is basically a customer service type of job and if the customer is treated rudely or given attitude for a simple request then the tip is little to nil.

A tip isn't a courtesy. It's the waitstaff's salary. You might not like that that's the way the industry is set up, but it is.

In addition, if you don't tip because the waiter is doing something you feel isn't servile enough, you're costing them money on top, as they're taxed on the assumed tip that you didn't give them.

The talking to your child wasn't you, no, it was another poster who had a similar list of reasons to deny a tip, I was combining them; didn't mean to imply they were all you. You did say if waiters are standing around talking though.