A question for Christians

[TLHB70]

I love your post.

2 things...1) the simplicity of it and

2) I love that you say we "get" to enter...

Somedays I just sit in awe that I "get'' to have a personal retaionship with God, who I believe created the universe. That is so awesome to me! I "get' to talk to Him, I get to listen to Him guide me with His Holy Spirit, I "get" to learn about Him, I "get" to read His Word, I "get" to be assured of what will happen to me when I die. He's God. He says He knows how many hairs are on my head. And yeah, I believe that! As a hairdresser, I think about it everytime I look at a head of hair to cut or style. I have no idea how many hairs each client has but the Good Lord does. Simple and yet He is so awesome.

Thank you so much for this post! That is exactly how I feel. This is twice today that I have quoted you because your words express my thoughts exactly! Thank you for being an encouraging word today! I completely agree!
BTW, jimmiej, Saphire, and dsnyscrapper, I agree with all of you also! You all have encouraged me today!

2 Corinthinas 9:15
Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!

 

[Buckalew11]

Anyone ever read Ninety Minutes In Heaven? Great book! The first thing he sees in heaven are his relatives. They are so happy to receive him, he's overwhelmed with joy. He said he felt the presence of God without a doubt, but could not see him. Then he was brought back to life & for quite a while was angry with God for sending him back.

I have not read that. I remember thinking when my dad died that he was once again with his parents and family and was meeting his brother who died at a 1 1/2 years old (before dad was even born). I was actually excited for him just thinking about. Last year on Mother's day I remember thinking it was my nan's first mother's day with both of her sons. That was just a big WOW for me!

This whole thread reminds me of an old joke:

Man dies and goes to Heaven and is getting the tour from an angel. Of course, it's amazing, everything he had ever imagined and then some. But there's one thing that he has a question about, so he asks his angel: "What's going on over that wall?" The Angel answers: "oh, that's the Baptists, they think they're the only ones here!"

I heard this the first time from a Baptist, but any denomination works.

I think this thread illustrates the differences in Biblical interpretation that exist and the differences in denominational teachings. As much as I know that Joe, Buck and Jim believe what they have professed here and I'm not arguing that-I can't say those same words. To me, that would be taking a decision out of God's hands and putting it in my own.

I've heard that joke and it is funny esp. when you have a denomination who thinks you have to be Baptist or Catholic or whatever to be in Heaven. However, I hope you do know that I (and the others) are not saying you must be an "X" to go to heaven when you die.

I see it so differently than your last sentence. This is just discussion and I am not saying "I'm right, you're wrong", OK? Thi is the way I see it.

Sin separates God and man. God is perfection, man is not. God made a plan to reunite Himself with man and did that through Jesus Christ's death and resurrection for our sins.

That was God's decision on the matter because He tells us "the wages of sin is death". Then, he leaves it up to me to choose Him. He reveals Himself to me (us) in different ways and we make the choice or decision to accept Him or not. He lets us choose, He has chosen us by giving us Christ. So within this lifetime it is MHO that the decision is made. You choose Him or you do not.

 

[Buckalew11]

In my case, it's a very low number! *baldy*

OK so I might be able to stand there and count yours. Maybe that is God's way of keeping track of it---easier if some people just do not have any!

 

[Fitswimmer]

I have not read that. I remember thinking when my dad died that he was once again with his parents and family and was meeting his brother who died at a 1 1/2 years old (before dad was even born). I was actually excited for him just thinking about. Last year on Mother's day I remember thinking it was my nan's first mother's day with both of her sons. That was just a big WOW for me!



I've heard that joke and it is funny esp. when you have a denomination who thinks you have to be Baptist or Catholic or whatever to be in Heaven. However, I hope you do know that I (and the others) are not saying you must be an "X" to go to heaven when you die.

I see it so differently than your last sentence. This is just discussion and I am not saying "I'm right, you're wrong", OK? Thi is the way I see it.

Sin separates God and man. God is perfection, man is not. God made a plan to reunite Himself with man and did that through Jesus Christ's death and resurrection for our sins.

That was God's decision on the matter because He tells us "the wages of sin is death". Then, he leaves it up to me to choose Him. He reveals Himself to me (us) in different ways and we make the choice or decision to accept Him or not. He lets us choose, He has chosen us by giving us Christ. So within this lifetime it is MHO that the decision is made. You choose Him or you do not.

I know you do and that's why I think this thread is interesting. I could no more change your position than you could change mine, because we've both come to them after serious reflection and study.

As I said earlier, my main thesis is that I'm not God, and I can't know God's mind or assume what His decisions will be-and that's not just about heaven. It's also about life issues, whether the Bible is the last word or which religion is the "one, true faith". I believe that those decisions are in God's hands and as tempting as it is for me to wrest them away, I can't. All I can do is follow the faith that I believe God led me to with the best effort I can muster, and when I need help, I can call on God to support me.

 

[Buckalew11]

I know you do and that's why I think this thread is interesting. I could no more change your position than you could change mine, because we've both come to them after serious reflection and study.

As I said earlier, my main thesis is that I'm not God, and I can't know God's mind or assume what His decisions will be-and that's not just about heaven. It's also about life issues, whether the Bible is the last word or which religion is the "one, true faith". I believe that those decisions are in God's hands and as tempting as it is for me to wrest them away, I can't. All I can do is follow the faith that I believe God led me to with the best effort I can muster, and when I need help, I can call on God to support me.

Thanks for this discussion. I am glad to have friends here to share these ideas and views with. It is so interesting to me and I know it all drives some people nuts but I love hearing people's views and reading these threads.

For me it is more about a "one, true God" than a one true faith (or religion). Hence the #1 commandment.

 

[frndshpcptn]

oops! Sorry. I meant to go back to that. Give me a bit & I'll respond. Thanks!

Sure thing!

 

[jimmiej]

Oh, well that makes sense. There is more than one Book of Life - one for Jewish people and one for Christian people! Or are you saying that Jesus opens the same Book that G-d writes names in during the Jewish high holy days? I might be confused there. Also, when does he open the Book to see the names of the believers?

I believe there is only one Book of Life for all mankind, past & present. I know there is some disagreement in Christian circles over how God will deal with the Jewish people.

The order of events during the end times is widely debated. However, I believe like the authors of the Left Behind book series. First comes the Rapture, where all Christians past & present are "caught up" to be with Jesus (I Thessalonians 4). Shortly thereafter begins a 3.5 year period called the Tribulation, where God will begin exacting harsh judgements on the earth. The Anti-Christ will come to power & will try to convince people that he can take care of them. He will reach some sort of political agreement with Israel. Then begins another 3.5 year period called the Great Tribulation, where God's judgements become so terrible, huge chunks of people are killed at one time. Many will come to know Christ during this time & will be protected from harm.

Then Christ will return to earth, where He will reign for 1000 years. We will be with Him. Satan will be locked in Hell during this time. After 1000 years, Satan will be let loose where he will be defeated once & for all by Jesus.

Then comes Judgment. There will be two Judgments: The Great White Throne Judgement for all who rejected Christ. They will be shown that the Book of Life DOES NOT contain their names. They will be cast into Hell, to suffer forever (Revelation 20). The Judgment seat of Christ will be for believers only (2 Corinthians 5). Their works will be set afire. Good works will be saved (gold, silver), & evil works will be burned up (hay, wood). What is left will be our gift to Jesus, & we will be rewarded accordingly (1 Corinthians 3).

I know that's way more than you wanted , but there you go anyways. Again, there is considerable haggling over the order of events.

 

[salmoneous]

There will be two Judgments: The Great White Throne Judgement for all who rejected Christ. They will be shown that the Book of Life DOES NOT contain their names. They will be cast into Hell, to suffer forever (Revelation 20). The Judgment seat of Christ will be for believers only (2 Corinthians 5).

Do you believe there is a third group - folks who have neither rejected Christ, nor are believers?

 

[jimmiej]

Do you believe there is a third group - folks who have neither rejected Christ, nor are believers?

No.

 

[salmoneous]

No.

So are the folks who have never heard of Jesus in the believers, or the rejecters? Where does Moses fit it? Children who die in infancy? The mentally disabled?

 

[Buckalew11]

So are the folks who have never heard of Jesus in the believers, or the rejecters? Where does Moses fit it? Children who die in infancy? The mentally disabled?

I'm not jimmie but these are my thoughts on this:

I want to think, ponder, question and all that too but I do NOT want to come up with "my own ideas". No thanks. We'd all have different ideas (as seen here) and how would that be fair and just? I want to know what God expects and I think He is pretty clear about it all. I am thankful for that because guessing and always wondering if I'm on the right path would be terrible in my mind. Jesus stated "It is finished". I believe that. He did what He came to do for each one of us. We can be reconciled to God through His actions and love for us.

As for the man in the jungle. We talked in my SS class about him for several weeks actually. There were differing views on it. I spent quite a sleepless week worried about that man in the jungle and trying to find answers.

This is what I believe (which means nothing to most).

I believe that God has put into each life a desire to know Him in some way. There is something in us that makes us wonder if there is something or someone greater than ourselves out there. I belive we each have a void that can only be truly filled with God's love. Anything else will not do.

I think it is true that there are people who have never been told about what Jesus did for them. But I do believe that God shows Himself through nature, His creation, and through different individual things in our lives. So, I believe that even if someone has never heard specifically about Jesus, that if they recognize to the best of their capability that there is something greater than themselves and they are not (for example) worshiping the tree that bears them good fruit to eat and shade from the sun etc. but believes that something, someone made the tree and placed it there, and that is all they may know as God, then God would judge their heart accordingly.

I think if they worshiped a false god, (say the tree itself) that would be unacceptable to God. I think god knows our hearts and will be fair. If we have heard about Jesus and reject His actions and love for us on the cross then, yes, I think you will be judged according to that and held accountable for it.

I think if you are not mentally capable, too young, etc. to understand the concept of salvation through Christ then God will judge you fairly also because He knows that person's heart.

I have thought about this long and hard and read and studied until I could not see straight just a few weeks ago. I will say my class had different thoughts and opinions and some people held everyone equally accountable whether they were living in the USA or that deep, dark jungle. It was a subject that we just agree to disagree on.

As a Christian, if I believed that Jesus Christ was the only way for that man in the deepest darkest jungle to have salvation and it was going to be partly my fault that he would not know and would be eternally separated from God because of it, I would sell everything I own and I'd head to the jungle. I could not lay head on a pillow at night and have any type of peace knowing that that person's salvation was up to Christians and me specifically.

These are just my own thoughts. Something I have thought long and hard about this year.

Because I believe God is Just and can judge our hearts, I believe that babies and mentally disabled will go to heaven.

I believe that the Jews are God's Chosen and I believe that Moses and Abraham etc. are in heaven because of the belief and obedience in God.

I think people who have never heard about Jesus is covered in my above quote which is JMHO.

 

[jimmiej]

So are the folks who have never heard of Jesus in the believers, or the rejecters? Where does Moses fit it? Children who die in infancy? The mentally disabled?

We already discussed jungle people, babies, & the mentally disabled. As far as those before Christ:

Romans 4

3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

 

[daisax]

Of course, there are also those that claim Christianity simply because they were raised in the church but they have never actually accepted Christ.

Not all Christian sects believe you have to formally "accept" Christ in the way I'm presuming you do (a formal declaration of some sort, not necessarily ritualized) . Catholics believe that we are "born again" in baptism, and confirm it in confirmation. Like Baptists (as far as my understanding goes), we believe it's the actual baptism itself that satisfies Jesus' statement: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). Unlike Baptists, we think infant baptism covers it.

Our own ideas? Uh...no!

I want to think, ponder, question and all that too but I do NOT want to come up with "my own ideas".

Maybe it's my partial Jesuit education coming out, but what's so scary about ideas? God gave us minds as well as hearts -- why fear using them? Why fear that God who knows everything would hold honest curiosity and even honest confusion and doubt against you, preferring blind obedience?

I guess I'd throw myself on His mercy and wait for the verdict.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Not all Christian sects believe you have to formally "accept" Christ in the way I'm presuming you do (a formal declaration of some sort, not necessarily ritualized) . Catholics believe that we are "born again" in baptism, and confirm it in confirmation. Like Baptists (as far as my understanding goes), we believe it's the actual baptism itself that satisfies Jesus' statement: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). Unlike Baptists, we think infant baptism covers it.





Maybe it's my partial Jesuit education coming out, but what's so scary about ideas? God gave us minds as well as hearts -- why fear using them? Why fear that God who knows everything would hold honest curiosity and even honest confusion and doubt against you, preferring blind obedience?

I guess I'd throw myself on His mercy and wait for the verdict.

Gotta watch those Jesuits... Between them and the Sisters of Charity I can't make a decision about what to order in McDonald's without sufficient reflection and contemplation.

 

[Buckalew11]

Not all Christian sects believe you have to formally "accept" Christ in the way I'm presuming you do (a formal declaration of some sort, not necessarily ritualized) . Catholics believe that we are "born again" in baptism, and confirm it in confirmation. Like Baptists (as far as my understanding goes), we believe it's the actual baptism itself that satisfies Jesus' statement: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). Unlike Baptists, we think infant baptism covers it.




Maybe it's my partial Jesuit education coming out, but what's so scary about ideas? God gave us minds as well as hearts -- why fear using them? Why fear that God who knows everything would hold honest curiosity and even honest confusion and doubt against you, preferring blind obedience?

I guess I'd throw myself on His mercy and wait for the verdict.

Baptists do not think baptism saves you in any way. It is an outward show of what is in your heart. Nothing magical about the water. It symbolizes the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. But you are right, Baptist do not baptize babies and the reason is above.

Nothing is scary about ideas. I have many. Like I said (you quoted me in the third quote), I ponder, question etc and God gave me a mind to think about all sorts of things. However, I think it would be unjust if God said "OK, you all just make up your own minds about whatever you want to believe and (haha) if you get it right, good and if you get it wrong, too bad for you!!" How could anyone think that fair? Nope, I'll take an unwavering, Just God who makes the rules and says THIS is how you are saved. My own idea may sound good to me or yours to you but how would that be fair? A crap shoot of sorts.

 

[frndshpcptn]

I believe there is only one Book of Life for all mankind, past & present. I know there is some disagreement in Christian circles over how God will deal with the Jewish people.

The order of events during the end times is widely debated. However, I believe like the authors of the Left Behind book series. First comes the Rapture, where all Christians past & present are "caught up" to be with Jesus (I Thessalonians 4). Shortly thereafter begins a 3.5 year period called the Tribulation, where God will begin exacting harsh judgements on the earth. The Anti-Christ will come to power & will try to convince people that he can take care of them. He will reach some sort of political agreement with Israel. Then begins another 3.5 year period called the Great Tribulation, where God's judgements become so terrible, huge chunks of people are killed at one time. Many will come to know Christ during this time & will be protected from harm.

Then Christ will return to earth, where He will reign for 1000 years. We will be with Him. Satan will be locked in Hell during this time. After 1000 years, Satan will be let loose where he will be defeated once & for all by Jesus.

Then comes Judgment. There will be two Judgments: The Great White Throne Judgement for all who rejected Christ. They will be shown that the Book of Life DOES NOT contain their names. They will be cast into Hell, to suffer forever (Revelation 20). The Judgment seat of Christ will be for believers only (2 Corinthians 5). Their works will be set afire. Good works will be saved (gold, silver), & evil works will be burned up (hay, wood). What is left will be our gift to Jesus, & we will be rewarded accordingly (1 Corinthians 3).

I know that's way more than you wanted , but there you go anyways. Again, there is considerable haggling over the order of events.

No, it's not at all more than I wanted. I've actually never heard most of that before (actually, a few words seem familiar because I think it's sung about in Jesus Christ Superstar?).

I find it really interesting and I am learning a lot from this thread.

I guess my next step is trying to understand / reconcile the idea of only one Book of Life. It's so interesting because it really does all come down to belief. I believe in the Jewish Book of Life. You believe in the Christian version. It's a similar concept yet totally different to each group of G-d's followers.

How do you personally think G-d will deal with Jewish people during this time?

 

[daisax]

Baptists do not think baptism saves you in any way. It is an outward show of what is in your heart. Nothing magical about the water. It symbolizes the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Do Baptists consider people saved if they believe but skip the actual immersion? I thought it was mandatory in order for it to "count." You can skip it?

However, I think it would be unjust if God said "OK, you all just make up your own minds about whatever you want to believe and (haha) if you get it right, good and if you get it wrong, too bad for you!!"

But that's just how those of us who are less exclusionary about Heaven see the "Accept Jesus as your personal Savior or you won't go to Heaven" viewpoint. Almost like God saying "Ohh, sorry, you didn't have the right answer, despite your best intentions -- too bad for you!"

Nope, I'll take an unwavering, Just God who makes the rules and says THIS is how you are saved.

But you've come to that viewpoint based on what others have told you the Bible is saying. Many of us here have no such understanding that that's what the Bible said OR meant.

My own idea may sound good to me or yours to you but how would that be fair? A crap shoot of sorts.

I don't consider it a crapshoot to believe that an omnipotent God can sort us out.

 

[dsnyscrapper]

Do Baptists consider people saved if they believe but skip the actual immersion? I thought it was mandatory in order for it to "count." You can skip it?



I am Baptist, and Baptists do not believe that immersion is mandatory to be saved and go to Heaven. It is an act of obedience. In the New Testament Jesus states to 'go forth and baptize your brothers in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit'. You are save if you ask and accept Jesus in your heart. That is ALL that is required.

 

[Buckalew11]

Do Baptists consider people saved if they believe but skip the actual immersion? I thought it was mandatory in order for it to "count." You can skip it?



But that's just how those of us who are less exclusionary about Heaven see the "Accept Jesus as your personal Savior or you won't go to Heaven" viewpoint. Almost like God saying "Ohh, sorry, you didn't have the right answer, despite your best intentions -- too bad for you!"



But you've come to that viewpoint based on what others have told you the Bible is saying. Many of us here have no such understanding that that's what the Bible said OR meant.



I don't consider it a crapshoot to believe that an omnipotent God can sort us out.

it is my opinion that you do not have to be baptized to have salvation. I think that in obedience you should be baptized just as Jesus was. The thief on the cross was not baptized.

I have come to that viewpoint not because I have been told that by others but by reading the Bible. I think it is very clear on what you must do to be saved. I'm not sure how one might read it and not get that out of it but maybe you are right...or maybe it is not what they want it to say. I have no idea how God will deal with that type of thing. I suppose He'd know your heart so He could say, "That's OK, I know your heart was in the right place." But, I just don't think He will do that. JMHO.

I think god knows our hearts. Therefore I think He can sort us out (as in wheat and chaff). I think many people will think because they attended a church or taught a class they'll go to heaven but maybe they had no relationship with Christ and fooled everyone...but God Himself. Maybe someone else never stepped foot in church but had a personal relationship with God...God will know.

However, for me, thinking if I do A,B,C, and D will get me into Heaven, you doing X,Y, and Z and someone else doing 1,2,3 seems to me like why would God not have a specific path?

God created man to have fellowship with us therefore I think a persoanl relationship makes so much more sense than just guessing what pleases Him. Throughout the Bible God shows us He is a God of order. Seeing creation work shows us that. It is JMHO that there is a specific plan and one that does not rely on our own selves--that way we can't boast or outdo one another--it all about what He did for us.

 

[jimmiej]

Do Baptists consider people saved if they believe but skip the actual immersion? I thought it was mandatory in order for it to "count." You can skip it?

You are saved by being born again of the Spirit. While we should not "skip it", baptism has no effect on one's salvation.

Luke 23

39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Certainly, this man had no opportunity to be baptized.

But that's just how those of us who are less exclusionary about Heaven see the "Accept Jesus as your personal Savior or you won't go to Heaven" viewpoint. Almost like God saying "Ohh, sorry, you didn't have the right answer, despite your best intentions -- too bad for you!"

Matthew 7

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.