A question about the human race

[CapeCodTenor]

I like to play a game with myself from time to time where I will ask a question, something big like; contemplating the universe before the Big Bang, a question I've asked here on the Dis, which got a really good discussion going, and try to come up with an answer. The question I'm about to ask came from an episode of Stargate SG1. In this episode, SG1 discovers advanced humans on a planet. When asked how they got so advanced, Dr. Daniel Jackson mentioned that if we hadn't gone through the dark ages we'd be colonizing space right now. The character in Stargate, Daniel Jackson, said that the dark ages lasted about 800 years. Now I'm not sure if it lasted 800 years (I like history, but I don't remember the time frame for the dark ages), but even if it didn't there was a significant period of time when the church held a lot of power and science took a back seat to the church. So here's the question; If the human race had not gone the Dark Ages where would we, as a human race, and planet, be right now?

My answer: I would like to think that we'd be colonizing space right. That we'd have some form of regular space travel in some kind of ships and that we, as humans, have learned to get along and have pulled out resources together to work for the betterment of man kind. Lofty goals, I know, but it’s a dream.

 

[themarquis]

Interesting question!

But I think historians don't really think there was such a thing as "the dark ages". At least, there was not a long time period when NO scientific or cultural change was occurring or that people "regressed" or became "primitive" -- this really didn't happen if you take a closer look at the history.

But I think your question could be something more like "without the strong influence of the church during that time period, what would humans be doing now?" Interesting (and no, I don't know the answer )

 

[CapeCodTenor]

Interesting question!

But I think historians don't really think there was such a thing as "the dark ages". At least, there was not a long time period when NO scientific or cultural change was occurring or that people "regressed" or became "primitive" -- this really didn't happen if you take a closer look at the history.

But I think your question could be something more like "without the strong influence of the church during that time period, what would humans be doing now?" Interesting (and no, I don't know the answer )

I've read that historians are getting away from using the term "Dark Ages" and that when it was first used it was because we didn't know much about that period. I really didn't know what else to call it, but i do like the way you put it.

 

[GeorgeG]

I think you have asked a good question and it's certainly worthy of significant debate. Unfortunately, there are those who would argue both for and against the churches role back then. Any conclusion would be strictly theoretical.

Even the same question posed to more recent centuries when more facts are known to to counter faith in ancient religious beliefs would be subject to disagreement. While questioning traditional religious doctrine will no longer get you killed, well, in most places, such debate still isn't readily accepted in many circles. Even fiction like the DaVince Code, though somewhat based on real history, raised the defensive hackles in church organizations around the world.

Still, if we had been able to accept what we could be shown over what we had been (still are) told to believe over past ages, I think we would light-years ahead of where we are today. Perhaps a lot of wars could have been prevented.

 

[amyhughes]

My first thought is we would be far more overpopulated, so yes we would have had to reach out into space much sooner.

If we hadn't had an 800 year span of rare to no innovation, think of penicillin being discovered 800 years sooner, cures to diseases being discovered 800 years sooner, etc. The church also wouldn't have got away with several burnings and killing of people with epilepsy (they thought they had demons in them), and other people who suffered from neuro diseases or handicaps.

The DNA chain, molecular biology, cellular regeneration used in medical procedures. All of these things are relatively new discoveries. Sanitization, I can't imagine 800 years ago it was very sanitary, and indeed that is what let the Plague really take hold. It wasn't until the turn of the 19th-20th centuries that you see sterilized surgical equipment become widespread, soap used with great fervor, and human waste not tossed into gutters.

Also Vaccinations weren't used then either. When Vaccinations were introduced many in the public thought that it was an insane idea to inject a virus into a perfectly healthy child.

Imagine the amount of people who would have lived longer lives with these aids. So yeah, I think we would have been severely overpopulated, much sooner.

 

[c4a]

Now, is this if no religion had existed or one in particular?

Is this solely (souly? sorry.) from a scientific perspetive or an artistic one as well?

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

Maybe I'm thinking too small, but I suspect that should there have been some different turns taken in history we would have been able to:
1) ...effectively eliminate hunger by creating new technologies in agriculture
2) ...cure cancer. As it is researchers are within reach making it a chronic disease (in many cases) and not a fatal one. Imagine what could have been.
3) ...have some colonization in space, albeit probably not more than as a novelty at this point

 

[ford family]

Interesting question!
But I think your question could be something more like "without the strong influence of the church during that time period, what would humans be doing now?" Interesting (and no, I don't know the answer )

How much damage is currently being done to the education of American children by creationists?

ford family

 

[daisax]

even if it didn't there was a significant period of time when the church held a lot of power and science took a back seat to the church.

Part of this is because of the plague. It wiped out millions of people at a time when the world population was a fraction of what it is now.

I actually attended a fascinating lecture by one of the heads of the World Health Organization explaining why the AIDS epidemic in Africa is of such vital world security interest, and he pointed to the plague and the dark ages, and how many parallels there are.

In each case there were entire generations orphaned, raising themselves, and this led to social upheaval on a scale that we haven't seen since, and only got a hint of in the early 20th century flu pandemic. The plague didn't just destroy human physical life, it destroyed communities and entire social orders, leading to anarchy.

To a certain degree the Church filled the vacuum of political power and in the following centuries solidified it. But the ascendency of the Church was more a result of the socio-economic-political breakdown than the cause of it.

 

[themarquis]

Part of this is because of the plague. It wiped out millions of people at a time when the world population was a fraction of what it is now.

I actually attended a fascinating lecture by one of the heads of the World Health Organization explaining why the AIDS epidemic in Africa is of such vital world security interest, and he pointed to the plague and the dark ages, and how many parallels there are.

In each case there were entire generations orphaned, raising themselves, and this led to social upheaval on a scale that we haven't seen since, and only got a hint of in the early 20th century flu pandemic. The plague didn't just destroy human physical life, it destroyed communities and entire social orders, leading to anarchy.

To a certain degree the Church filled the vacuum of political power and in the following centuries solidified it. But the ascendency of the Church was more a result of the socio-economic-political breakdown than the cause of it.

I think the black death would have come at the *very end* of what we generally call "the dark ages" and right before the renaissance. Some say the plague actually made the renaissance (the 'Rebirth" of classical culture and the scientific revolution) possible, since it created massive social changes that led to the birth of early capitalism -- in particular, there were not enough people around to do all the manual labor, so labor itself became more valued, and workers could more or less set their own prices. The traditional feudal economic structure was decimated by the lack of labor, and people moved to cities and some became the upwardly mobile members of the new middle class.

So long story short, the black death was probably pretty beneficial for Europe in the end, and spelled the END of the "dark ages".

 

[PlainJane]

Of course without the pesky church we wouldn't have the College of William and Mary, Princeton, Harvard, or Yale.

 

[Mikelly1221]

Someone will have to help me with my time frame, but weren't many of the early scientists Christians or deists that believed in God and were trying to explore the world from that angle and made so many discoveries? I'm thinking of Isaac Newton as an example.

 

[themarquis]

Someone will have to help me with my time frame, but weren't many of the early scientists Christians or deists that believed in God and were trying to explore the world from that angle and made so many discoveries? I'm thinking of Isaac Newton as an example.

I think there may be a bit of confusion in this thread because everyone seems to have a different idea of what the "dark ages" might have been, lol!

Isaac Newton (who FYI may have been a Christian but was also persecuted by the church) was doing stuff in the 17th/18th centuries. The dark ages ... well ... if it existed as such ... was about ... mmm .... 6th thru 15th centuries, maybe the beginning of the 16th?

Oh heck ... I should just give it up! History, schmistory!

 

[Galahad]

If the human race had not gone the Dark Ages where would we, as a human race, and planet, be right now?

.

IMO, not appreciably different than we are today. We overstate, IMO, the lack of "progress" made during the Dark Ages and we also discount every other aspect of life that slows down or speeds up progress.

How much damage is currently being done to the education of American children by creationists?

IMO, none at all. Hysteria isn't productive regardless of who is being hysterical.

 

[Mikelly1221]

I think there may be a bit of confusion in this thread because everyone seems to have a different idea of what the "dark ages" might have been, lol!

Isaac Newton (who FYI may have been a Christian but was also persecuted by the church) was doing stuff in the 17th/18th centuries. The dark ages ... well ... if it existed as such ... was about ... mmm .... 6th thru 15th centuries, maybe the beginning of the 16th?

Oh heck ... I should just give it up! History, schmistory!

And I like to think I understand history! Oh well!

 

[themarquis]

And I like to think I understand history! Oh well!

hee hee ... I'm sure you do, but I just realized while I was typing that post that probably nobody cares about all the dates and stuff!

 

[HamTown]

The term "dark ages" is a very European-centered concept, really about the Catholic church. The plague had a lot to do with it, but I think the advance of Islam into Europe and the weakening of Italy were more important to the idea that everything "went dark". There was plenty of advancement of the sciences in China and the Islamic world during that time period.

The world really didn't stop progressing.

It's a great questions though!

 

[Charade]

Anyone else feel like they're riding SpaceShipEarth?

 

[Mr. Pig]

The Dark Ages are considered the time between the fall of the Roman empire to the revival of learning in the West. I don't think the Church caused it or even made it any worse. In fact the Church kept communication open when Roman institutions ended.

I will agree with others that the Dark Ages actually pushed Europe forward in the end. Look at how many inventions came from China - gunpowder, the weaving loom, etc. but China was more stable at this time. Imperial bureaucracy stifled individual initiative. In the unstable West there were less limitations. It took some time but the inventors of rockets and gunpowder weren't the first ones to go to the moon but the descendants of those that lived through the Dark Ages did. And as was stated before, the Black Death meant fewer people which meant labor was more valuable and advancements in technology was spurred on for labor saving machines.

As we can remember from "The American Adventure" at Epcot, Tomas Edison said that "discontent is the first necessity of progress".

 

[Imzadi]

My answer: I would like to think that we'd be colonizing space right. That we'd have some form of regular space travel in some kind of ships and that we, as humans, have learned to get along and have pulled out resources together to work for the betterment of man kind. Lofty goals, I know, but it’s a dream.

You mean, like Gene Roddenbery's original vision of the future?

BTW, I like your siggie. It's similar to mine.