13 Year old gir declared brain dead has now officially died

[sunshinehighway]

The same place the hamburger comment came from it was said that the nurses were trying to get the family out of the room. ( around 16 )



Nobody has dismissed the idea that the hospital did someone wrong.

Yes that's one of the other comments people in other places seem to be using to show how bad this family was to deal with. There's no way 16 people from this family were allowed into her room in picu. No way.

 

[dakcp2001]

Yes that's one of the other comments people in other places seem to be using to show how bad this family was to deal with. There's no way 16 people from this family were allowed into her room in picu. No way.

I'd say from all we have seen in the media, it is blatantly clear that this family is difficult to deal with. We are not making that up, we see that with our own eyeballs.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

Someone who may or may not have been at the hospital that day, on a comment on an internet site reports that they saw what looked like a family member offering her a bite. Not a lot to go on, and lots of possibilities from the family having permission, to Jahi refusing the bite, to someone who is confused about what they saw, to an outright lie by someone seeking attention in an anonymous forum.

It's PICU. There should be someone in the room at all times.[/QUOTE]

That is completely false. You think healthcare is expensive now? Just imagine how much 1 on 1 care would cost. In my hospital picu nurse can have up to 3 patients. They always have 2. And even if care was 1 on 1, you would still need to leave the room to get meds, blankets, read the orders, talk to doctors, go pee.

The PICU as CHO has been described as a single room with all the beds in one space. Even with a 3:1 ratio, there should be multiple nurses in that setting.

Now, it's possible that the PICU has a different set up with individual rooms, but since that's how the hamburger reporter describes it it seems as though if they're describing the room wrong it's likely because they weren't there at all, in which case the hamburger story has no merit.

My kid has had a number of surgeries. We've never been alone in a room during the post surgery recovery time. Alone in a curtained area, yes, but always in a room with multiple beds and multiple staff members. The idea that somehow, "minutes" (quoting the poster I was quoting above) after surgery, Jahi and her family were in a room with other PICU patients and no staff members, seems very unlikely to me, so that the parents could do all these horrible things that they're accused of in plain sight of other families but with no nurse or other professional in the room? That seems either highly unlikely, or neglectful.

 

[dakcp2001]

Yes that's one of the other comments people in other places seem to be using to show how bad this family was to deal with. There's no way 16 people from this family were allowed into her room in picu. No way.

I've seen it happen. It happens when people ignore the " you cannot all go in there at once" and then we have to call security. They come from the ground floor. It actually happened last Friday on my floor. Bunch of drunk twenty somethings.

 

[North of Mouse]

I really wish the media would quit saying it was "just a tonsillectomy". It was so much more than that. I've had the same procedure Jahi did and was told numerous times of the very real risks of the surgery and had to sign numerous sheets of paper saying I was aware of the side effects/risks of the surgery.

And yes, death was mentioned more than once as a risk.

-----and could cause death' - is mentioned on 'any' paper that I have ever signed off on before surgery of any kind using general anesthesia. Just had gallbladder surgery last week and was showing this to my dh - really is 'calming' for the nerves. LOL

I didn't say that exactly. They do want you to eat though, (of course not before you feel you are ready, but my daughter requested it about an hour after surgery and they let her have it). We don't give popsicles, patients are given a throat spray to numb the throat before eating and you are given toast as you more than like haven eaten for at least 12 hours, in some cases more :-/

She definitely ate toast. 3 rounds at first, and another three for lunch. And then the consultant checked her in the evening and yes, another three rounds of toast. Its all in her notes.

Can hardly take this in - sure isn't the way they do it here - at least in none of the 'throat' cases I have seen.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Can't medical records be altered or information left off?

DH had rotator cuff surgery and a torn bicep repaired on Oct. 28th. The surgery center (rated #1 in our county) tried to give him Tylenol multiple times even though he is allergic. I wanted to speak to the doctor about the mistakes so I requested the records. There wasn't any mention of the mistakes. It shows what he was given instead, but no mention is made of the drug he was almost given. The nurse had to sign that medicine out. I don't know what she would do with the unused medication, but it was not mentioned in DH's records. Maybe she didn't have to record it in his chart since she didn't end up giving it to him, but I think that is walking the line of shady.

The doctor wrote out a prescription for Tylenol with Codeine. When the discharge nurse handed it to me, I pointed out yet another mistake. The nurse wrote on the RX, "Wife refused." I don't think so! I made her write, "Wife refused because husband is allergic." In my opinion, she was trying to make me look like the difficult person instead of putting in writing the obvious mistake.

I recognize that DH's situation is WAY different than Jahi's case. Hospitals, nurses, staff, and parents make mistakes. I'm not sure everyone openly admits to their mistakes even if it is required. Some things are harder than others to cover up, though.

Electronic records cannot be altered that I am aware of. Not every type of electronic record is contained in the patient's chart, but they would still be looked at by the DPH or recoverable during a lawsuit. Things such as the paging systems, the monitors, the pumps, medication administration systems, pharmacy records, care documentation systems, etc.

"Patient refused" is just industry speak for patient didn't want it. It is not a negative connotation, necessarily. (That would depend on other documentation to that effect.)

Of course people make mistakes. I've made them myself. We all have. It is understood that humans are running the systems. It is also understood that a lot of different things are going on in a hospital and with staff caring for patients at any given time. The standard for care is "reasonable and proper". And that policies are followed. Most facilities strive for excellence.

I don't think anyone is saying for sure the hospital didn't err. And I don't think anyone is saying for sure the family did anything to harm Jahi. People are just speculating. And those of us who work in hospitals and understand these things are just trying to explain how it works, and what our experiences are. Nobody is saying the hospital and its staff is infallible. I've been on the receiving end of mistakes as a patient myself and with family members, too. It would be silly to say that nobody did anything wrong for sure. But it's also possible that policies were followed and people acted reasonably and proper. We just don't know yet.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Yes that's one of the other comments people in other places seem to be using to show how bad this family was to deal with. There's no way 16 people from this family were allowed into her room in picu. No way.

Ha! Welcome to our world!

 

[Arielle22]

I had my tonsils out when I was 30. My sister had hers out the same day and was 22. We were told to only eat soft food and nothing hot for several days. It took us about 5 days before we felt like eating more than ice cream and ginger ale.

We both had bad reactions to the anesthesia and threw up. We threw up all the blood we had swallowed during the surgery. Since I first heard about this case I have wondered if when she was first throwing up blood if it was thought to be what she had swallowed.

As far as nurses to patient ratio, my nephew spent 4 months in NICU when he was an infant. He was a micro premie with many issues. There were 4 babies to a room but the nurses were not in there every minute of the day. They were close at hand when an alarm went off but otherwise were at the nursing station unless they had a task to do with the baby.

My MIL spent a couple weeks in an ICU in a first rated hospital in Boston. She had her own area with a curtain but again the nurse was not with her all the time.

I don't think anyone has enough information to determine if there was negligence by either the hospital or the family. However the family has muddied the water so much with their claims that the truth may never be known.

 

[karriemouse]

Yes that's one of the other comments people in other places seem to be using to show how bad this family was to deal with. There's no way 16 people from this family were allowed into her room in picu. No way.

Allowed - NO. Went into - YES. As a former PICU nurse there is no 'guard' on the door 'allowing' people in - the nurses have far better things to do!

Whilst most families will follow the rules put there for the well being of their child there are always some who don't - get one family member into the unit and they will let the world, his wife and Great-Aunt Bertha come in until someone removes them.

And no, I'm not saying this happened, none of us know as we weren't there - but some of us do have the experience to know what CAN happen on a PICU.

 

[Green Tea]

I'm confused (probably because I am reading this from the back) but why was she in PICU after a tonsillectomy? Wouldn't she have been in recovery? Then from there put into PICU after the bleeding?

Was it after she was put in PUCU that the huge family came to visit, or did they go into the recovery room?

 

[StitchesGr8Fan]

I'm confused (probably because I am reading this from the back) but why was she in PICU after a tonsillectomy? Wouldn't she have been in recovery? Then from there put into PICU after the bleeding? Was it after she was put in PUCU that the huge family came to visit, or did they go into the recovery room?

It was always planned for her to go to the PICU after surgery due to the complexity of the surgery.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Allowed - NO. Went into - YES. As a former PICU nurse there is no 'guard' on the door 'allowing' people in - the nurses have far better things to do!

Whilst most families will follow the rules put there for the well being of their child there are always some who don't - get one family member into the unit and they will let the world, his wife and Great-Aunt Bertha come in until someone removes them.

And no, I'm not saying this happened, none of us know as we weren't there - but some of us do have the experience to know what CAN happen on a PICU.

Any ICU I've been to is locked and requires a buzz in.

 

[StitchesGr8Fan]

Any ICU I've been to is locked and requires a buzz in.

Yes, but the buzz in opens the doors so anyone standing outside them can walk in. It isn't like there are turnstiles that only let 4 visitors through at a time.

 

[phorsenuf]

Any ICU I've been to is locked and requires a buzz in.

It must vary hospital to hospital. When we were visiting my MIL in ICU in TN we could walk right in.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Yes, but the buzz in opens the doors so anyone standing outside them can walk in. It isn't like there are turnstiles that only let 4 visitors through at a time.

The person at the desk buzzing people in sees who comes in. Anytime I've had to be buzzed in I've had to also sign in what would be the point of the door being locked if they don't even check who they are letting in?

 

[karriemouse]

Any ICU I've been to is locked and requires a buzz in.

Locked from the outside, yes, certainly ours was - but not from theinside. So once one family member is in they can let others in.

We used to allow 2 visitors per bed, and so family would phone/text each other and arrange to let each other in and swap over. As long as they were staying within the rules we allowed and were happy with that as it didn't take nursing staff away from nursing just to open the door.

 

[Wendy31]

I've been following this thread & have read some of the different articles about the case.

I understand the difference between brain death, coma, & a vegetative state, & I understand the difference between brain death & cardiac death. From reading, I also understand that a hospital isn't under any kind of obligation to keep a brain dead patient on a vent after the patient's been declared dead. I think, if I'm understanding correctly, a brain dead patient might be kept on a vent for 24-48 hours or so which gives the family time to say good-bye.

However, what I'm not really understanding is how Jahi ended up on a vent. From what I've read, the heavy bleeding caused her to go into cardiac arrest, correct? She wasn't on a vent when the bleeding began. So why would the hospital have placed her on a vent? Why wouldn't they have just called "time of death" & then told the family, "I'm very sorry. There was nothing we could do. Jahi's heart arrested."

Also, while I really feel for the family & I couldn't even imagine if something like this happened to my child, I'm feeling less sympathy for the family as this goes on. I'm not sure how a parent would want this for her child. From some of the videos I've seen & interviews I've read w/ the family, I just find myself having a hard time believing anyone could be this delusional. And is NO ONE close to the family stepping in & gently explaining anything to the mother? This mother is literally watching her daughter's body decay before her eyes, & no family member should have to witness that!

As someone else mentioned in an earlier comment, as a parent, I'd be horrified if something like this happened to my child after surgery, & I'd want to know what happened & why it happened.

I mean, something out of the ordinary happened, right? Whether it was something the family did (letting her talk, feeding her hamburger, suctioning blood, etc.) or something the hospital did or neglected to do. In my mind, something happened, & we probably will never know the full story.

I watched one interview w/ the grandmother who is supposedly a nurse - in the interview, if I'm remembering it correctly, she said her daughter came & got her after the surgery because Jahi was bleeding. And she said that she (the grandmother) was the one who told the nurse to get the doctor.

DH & I were talking. This particular hospital is supposed to be one of the nation's (or state's) top children's hospitals, right? I can't even imagine a scenario where, in PICU, a patient's family member is given a bucket to "catch the blood" or the family is left alone to suction blood & all the medical personnel just stand by & watch. That just seems bizarre to me.

While I understand that nurse-patient ratios can't be 1:1, I also know (or believe) that PICU patients would be monitored closely & that nurses would be close by.

I also realize that patients & patients' families don't hear all the information correctly. I think it was on the nurses' site that one nurse quoted a statistic - a patient & the family only hears 50% of the information, of that 50%, they only understand 50%, &, of that 50%, they only correctly remember 50%. And, when you're in an emergency situation, your perception of time is skewed.

However, I will say that, after something tragic happened in our family last January, I no longer really trust what the doctors & nurses are telling the family. I do believe that the doctors are doing everything they can, but I don't believe they always tell the family the absolute truth.

W/o going into all the details, my sister-in-law passed away last January. DH's brother & her parents had to made the very hard decision to take her off life support. When we left the hospital on a Tuesday, we were told that she was stable & that the doctors knew what was wrong & were treating her accordingly. On our way back to the hospital the next day, we received a call that she was gone. She had been put on a life support, & they were waiting for the rest of the family. Later that day, the doctors came in to talk to us (the relatives) & told us that she had never had a chance, that it was a lost cause from the beginning. And, now, a year later, I still feel... I don't know... betrayed. And I wasn't even an immediate family member. I do believe that the doctors did their ultimate best w/ my sister-in-law, but I think the family should have been given the facts from the beginning. We went home on Tuesday thinking she would recover. On Wednesday, she was gone. And I just now no longer really believe that doctors are telling the family the full truth of the situation.

Anyway, I hate the circus that this has turned into, & I'm upset w/ Jahi's family for letting it get this way. As a parent, you need to be strong for your child & do what's best for your child. The hospital may have done something wrong, you as the parent may have done something wrong, you may feel terribly quilty... but you still do what's best for your child & worry about the other stuff later.

 

[JanaDee]

It must vary hospital to hospital. When we were visiting my MIL in ICU in TN we could walk right in.

My experience, too.

 

[bcla]

It must vary hospital to hospital. When we were visiting my MIL in ICU in TN we could walk right in.

Depends a lot. I've had experiences with maternity wards (which are paranoid of baby snatching), ICUs, and emergency rooms.

One issue in Oakland and San Francisco would be victims of gang violence being treated. Often they have worries that maybe someone being treated for a gunshot wound might get a visit from the shooter's gang looking to finish off what they started. The two biggest county hospitals in the Bay Area have trauma centers where gunshot wounds are often treated. Highland Hospital in Oakland has extremely high security provided by the Alameda County Sheriff's Office. San Francisco General Hospital has security from the San Francisco Sheriff's Dept.

When my child was born, there was ample private security on the maternity floor. I specifically remember a woman waiting to get in on the ground floor who was cussing out the staff for not letting her get in. That's sort of the unpleasantness you can find in certain urban hospitals. BTW - CHO isn't in the greatest neighborhood. While it technically isn't West Oakland, it feels like it. It's a pretty good neighborhood just a few blocks away. That's sort of what Oakland is like. When we took our kid to the emergency room at CHO, we made sure to park in their garage and not on the street. It was past midnight and just plain felt unsafe to walk on the street. There are upscale neighborhoods like Temescal bordering poor neighborhoods like West Oakland. CHO is in a poorer area around the Berkeley-Oakland border.

I mentioned John Muir Hospital in Walnut Creek, California. This is an affluent area. I saw almost nothing stopping us from entering the ICU. Even though the policy was no children, we weren't stopped until we entered the ICU and were told to have the kid wait downstairs.

 

[lizzi6692]

I've been following this thread & have read some of the different articles about the case.

I understand the difference between brain death, coma, & a vegetative state, & I understand the difference between brain death & cardiac death. From reading, I also understand that a hospital isn't under any kind of obligation to keep a brain dead patient on a vent after the patient's been declared dead. I think, if I'm understanding correctly, a brain dead patient might be kept on a vent for 24-48 hours or so which gives the family time to say good-bye.

However, what I'm not really understanding is how Jahi ended up on a vent. From what I've read, the heavy bleeding caused her to go into cardiac arrest, correct? She wasn't on a vent when the bleeding began. So why would the hospital have placed her on a vent? Why wouldn't they have just called "time of death" & then told the family, "I'm very sorry. There was nothing we could do. Jahi's heart arrested."

Also, while I really feel for the family & I couldn't even imagine if something like this happened to my child, I'm feeling less sympathy for the family as this goes on. I'm not sure how a parent would want this for her child. From some of the videos I've seen & interviews I've read w/ the family, I just find myself having a hard time believing anyone could be this delusional. And is NO ONE close to the family stepping in & gently explaining anything to the mother? This mother is literally watching her daughter's body decay before her eyes, & no family member should have to witness that!

As someone else mentioned in an earlier comment, as a parent, I'd be horrified if something like this happened to my child after surgery, & I'd want to know what happened & why it happened.

I mean, something out of the ordinary happened, right? Whether it was something the family did (letting her talk, feeding her hamburger, suctioning blood, etc.) or something the hospital did or neglected to do. In my mind, something happened, & we probably will never know the full story.

I watched one interview w/ the grandmother who is supposedly a nurse - in the interview, if I'm remembering it correctly, she said her daughter came & got her after the surgery because Jahi was bleeding. And she said that she (the grandmother) was the one who told the nurse to get the doctor.

DH & I were talking. This particular hospital is supposed to be one of the nation's (or state's) top children's hospitals, right? I can't even imagine a scenario where, in PICU, a patient's family member is given a bucket to "catch the blood" or the family is left alone to suction blood & all the medical personnel just stand by & watch. That just seems bizarre to me.

While I understand that nurse-patient ratios can't be 1:1, I also know (or believe) that PICU patients would be monitored closely & that nurses would be close by.

I also realize that patients & patients' families don't hear all the information correctly. I think it was on the nurses' site that one nurse quoted a statistic - a patient & the family only hears 50% of the information, of that 50%, they only understand 50%, &, of that 50%, they only correctly remember 50%. And, when you're in an emergency situation, your perception of time is skewed.

However, I will say that, after something tragic happened in our family last January, I no longer really trust what the doctors & nurses are telling the family. I do believe that the doctors are doing everything they can, but I don't believe they always tell the family the absolute truth.

W/o going into all the details, my sister-in-law passed away last January. DH's brother & her parents had to made the very hard decision to take her off life support. When we left the hospital on a Tuesday, we were told that she was stable & that the doctors knew what was wrong & were treating her accordingly. On our way back to the hospital the next day, we received a call that she was gone. She had been put on a life support, & they were waiting for the rest of the family. Later that day, the doctors came in to talk to us (the relatives) & told us that she had never had a chance, that it was a lost cause from the beginning. And, now, a year later, I still feel... I don't know... betrayed. And I wasn't even an immediate family member. I do believe that the doctors did their ultimate best w/ my sister-in-law, but I think the family should have been given the facts from the beginning. We went home on Tuesday thinking she would recover. On Wednesday, she was gone. And I just now no longer really believe that doctors are telling the family the full truth of the situation.

Anyway, I hate the circus that this has turned into, & I'm upset w/ Jahi's family for letting it get this way. As a parent, you need to be strong for your child & do what's best for your child. The hospital may have done something wrong, you as the parent may have done something wrong, you may feel terribly quilty... but you still do what's best for your child & worry about the other stuff later.

They didn't know she was brain dead when she was put on the vent. Until December 12th when brain death was proven they were obligated to do everything they could to save her. Doctors don't just throw up their hands and say "oops guess she's dead" when someone goes into cardiac arrest, they try and fix it.