13 Year old gir declared brain dead has now officially died

[Lintasare]

I just read on the All Nurses thread that according to the family a trach and G tube have been placed.

 

[bcla]

I've been following this thread & have read some of the different articles about the case.

I understand the difference between brain death, coma, & a vegetative state, & I understand the difference between brain death & cardiac death. From reading, I also understand that a hospital isn't under any kind of obligation to keep a brain dead patient on a vent after the patient's been declared dead. I think, if I'm understanding correctly, a brain dead patient might be kept on a vent for 24-48 hours or so which gives the family time to say good-bye.

However, what I'm not really understanding is how Jahi ended up on a vent. From what I've read, the heavy bleeding caused her to go into cardiac arrest, correct? She wasn't on a vent when the bleeding began. So why would the hospital have placed her on a vent? Why wouldn't they have just called "time of death" & then told the family, "I'm very sorry. There was nothing we could do. Jahi's heart arrested."

Also, while I really feel for the family & I couldn't even imagine if something like this happened to my child, I'm feeling less sympathy for the family as this goes on. I'm not sure how a parent would want this for her child. From some of the videos I've seen & interviews I've read w/ the family, I just find myself having a hard time believing anyone could be this delusional. And is NO ONE close to the family stepping in & gently explaining anything to the mother? This mother is literally watching her daughter's body decay before her eyes, & no family member should have to witness that!

As someone else mentioned in an earlier comment, as a parent, I'd be horrified if something like this happened to my child after surgery, & I'd want to know what happened & why it happened.

I mean, something out of the ordinary happened, right? Whether it was something the family did (letting her talk, feeding her hamburger, suctioning blood, etc.) or something the hospital did or neglected to do. In my mind, something happened, & we probably will never know the full story.

I watched one interview w/ the grandmother who is supposedly a nurse - in the interview, if I'm remembering it correctly, she said her daughter came & got her after the surgery because Jahi was bleeding. And she said that she (the grandmother) was the one who told the nurse to get the doctor.

DH & I were talking. This particular hospital is supposed to be one of the nation's (or state's) top children's hospitals, right? I can't even imagine a scenario where, in PICU, a patient's family member is given a bucket to "catch the blood" or the family is left alone to suction blood & all the medical personnel just stand by & watch. That just seems bizarre to me.

I believe vents are actually used for actual life-support, such as when there's weakened lungs. As others stated, she wasn't declared dead until days later. I think the hospital staff thought that they were attempting life-saving care in the meanwhile.

And while Children's Hospital Oakland has a stellar reputation, I'm not sure it's necessarily considered one of the top ones in the nation or state. You can check the US News rankings, and CHO isn't listed anywhere for any specialty. That being said, I was told that it was the first choice should we need emergency treatment for a child. They have the only Level I pediatric trauma center in the area. I served on jury duty with a nurse and asked her about the place, and she called it the "Mecca" of all children's facilities in the Bay Area. UCSF Benioff and Stanford Lucille Packard have reputations from being affiliated with world-class medical schools, but CHO does have an excellent reputation. I've been there as a patient when I was younger, and I've personally taken my child there for emergency care. I wouldn't hesitate to return if needed.

 

[Wendy31]

They didn't know she was brain dead when she was put on the vent. Until December 12th when brain death was proven they were obligated to do everything they could to save her. Doctors don't just throw up their hands and say "oops guess she's dead" when someone goes into cardiac arrest, they try and fix it.

I realize that. But not every person who goes into cardiac arrest ends up on a vent either. Doctors call "time of death" & that, sadly, is it, & then they go out to talk to the family in the waiting room.

I guess what I'm asking what would put one cardiac arrest patient on a vent & one cardiac arrest patient not?

In Jahi's case, would she have ended up on a vent because they did manage to get her heart started back but couldn't keep it beating on its own, so they would have put her on vent? And then, later, as you said, discovered that she was brain dead.

 

[bcla]

I just read on the All Nurses thread that according to the family a trach and G tube have been placed.

It's going to get nasty if they try to feed a dead body. By now any chance that the GI system even has rudimentary function is gone. I heard maybe there was minimal GI function for up to a week. Some says it's gone without brain function to control the activities.

 

[mom2rtk]

I just read on the All Nurses thread that according to the family a trach and G tube have been placed.

I'm even sadder than before.

 

[lsyorke]

I realize that. But not every person who goes into cardiac arrest ends up on a vent either. Doctors call "time of death" & that, sadly, is it, & then they go out to talk to the family in the waiting room.

I guess what I'm asking what would put one cardiac arrest patient on a vent & one cardiac arrest patient not?

In Jahi's case, would she have ended up on a vent because they did manage to get her heart started back but couldn't keep it beating on its own, so they would have put her on vent? And then, later, as you said, discovered that she was brain dead.

If you code someone and you get a heart rate back without respirations, they go on a vent. If one has no heart rate, even after massive intervention, there's no need for ventilation.

This whole situation is sad, but it's also a wake up call that medicine/surgery can't fix everything. And if something goes wrong, it's not always negligence. Todays society expect medicine to be able to fix everything without complication. That's just not a realistic view. Human bodies aren't machines that you just replace the part and off you go. Each body is different with it's own set of potential problems, and while the medical community does their best to have every outcome a positive one, it's never going to happen.

 

[dakcp2001]

Any ICU I've been to is locked and requires a buzz in.

I am a nurse and I have worked in a number of hospitals. Only one has had a locked icu. That is one out of many. Only locked unit in my hospital is psych. And we lock the CCU between 630 and 8 for shift change to protect patients privacy.

 

[LisaR]

I just read on the All Nurses thread that according to the family a trach and G tube have been placed.

My hope was this family simply had a tumultuous relationship with the hospital and when they got her to another facility, common sense would kick in. I figured they just didn't trust the hospital staff because they thought they were responsible for the state that their daughter was in. They were determined to do the exact opposite of anything the hospital recommended. I thought getting her out of the hospital was the best thing that could happen. Instead, it looks as if they have really gone off the deep end. If this is true, it is very disheartening. What type of facility would even encourage this?

 

[JanaDee]

I just read on the All Nurses thread that according to the family a trach and G tube have been placed.

Who in the world is unethical enough to risk their license working on Jahi?

 

[sunshinehighway]

I am a nurse and I have worked in a number of hospitals. Only one has had a locked icu. That is one out of many. Only locked unit in my hospital is psych. And we lock the CCU between 630 and 8 for shift change to protect patients privacy.

And many hospitals have locked icus.

Only locked unit in your hospital is psych? Not even maternity? I thought that was pretty standard these days.

Either way it doesn't change the fact that it's all speculation based on Internet rumors. It's actually really sick that people are willing to speculate on how this mother killed her daughter based on nothing.

 

[lsyorke]

Only locked unit in your hospital is psych? Not even maternity? I thought that was pretty standard these days.

I've worked in many ICU's, not one was locked.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

Is it possible for us all to agree that all ICUs will have different rules, from being locked/unlocked, how many people are allowed in, etc.

As I stated earlier, the PICU my daughter was in was locked, we had to buzzed in and they were very strict about the number of people let in. The ICU my grandmother was in we had to be buzzed in, although the nurses often gave us permission to let family members in as they arrived, so we weren't interrupting them. The ICU my grandfather was in didn't require us to buzz in. All were in the SF Bay Area.

I am very interested in the discussion and will continue to read all posts, even if they further discuss ICU rules...but I don't think any one of us is "right" since we don't know the PICU rules at CHO nor if they were enforced in this instance.

 

[sunshinehighway]

I've worked in many ICU's, not one was locked.

Well I guess they must not exist then.

Yup let's assume they had a party in her room with 16 people and burgers. I read it on the Internet so it must be true. Got to head out for that date with the French model I met online.

 

[Tozzie]

And many hospitals have locked icus.

Only locked unit in your hospital is psych? Not even maternity? I thought that was pretty standard these days.

Either way it doesn't change the fact that it's all speculation based on Internet rumors. It's actually really sick that people are willing to speculate on how this mother killed her daughter based on nothing.

You are speculating just as much that the hospital is at fault , my opinion is the parents did something since they could tell the press anything they wanted and not fear a rebuttal, yes I will villify them until proven otherwise. They are way too sneaky for my liking. I also think they are only keeping this charade going in the hopes of a monetary windfall You dont have to agree or like it but that is my opinion

 

[MaryAnnDVC]

Who in the world is unethical enough to risk their license working on Jahi?

A Catholic hospital, protecting "life" at all costs.

 

[lsyorke]

Well I guess they must not exist then.

Really? Just offering information.

 

[JanaDee]

A Catholic hospital, protecting "life" at all costs.

Right. That didn't even occur to me.

 

[lsyorke]

A Catholic hospital, protecting "life" at all costs.

This came out from the Catholic Church

http://www.ncbcenter.org/resources/jahi-mcmath-and-catholic-teaching-on-the-determination-of-death

 

[MaryAnnDVC]

Well I guess they must not exist then. Yup let's assume they had a party in her room with 16 people and burgers. I read it on the Internet so it must be true. Got to head out for that date with the French model I met online.

Now you're just being dramatic. This is a DISCUSSION board. If we went solely on FACTS that we KNOW then we wouldn't be having much of a discussion now, would we. There's a ton of speculation that we're discussing, period. A lot of "if...thens". But it's certainly more dramatic for you to interpret what some have said they heard (and I don't recall ANYONE saying that what they've heard is what they believe is solid FACT WRITTEN IN STONE) as "a PARTY in her room with 16 people and BURGERS."

 

[mrsksomeday]

Nick Smith ‏@nicksmithnews 31m
#NEW INFO: according to family, #JahiMcMath has had feeding tube inserted and is "doing great." pic.twitter.com/TqWC1qt3FQ

I am sickened, saddened, and disgusted by this news. She has no way to digest food. This is going to get horrible very fast.