You must be swift as the coursing river (as long as it's the Lazy River) - comments welcome

[Herding_Cats]

Those are rookie numbers. Four per day. More like 4 per trip to the kitchen!

 

[WillRunForPizza]

I make pretty large cookies though!

 

[WillRunForPizza]

How do you know when/how much to adjust your training paces?

For context, I did this workout this morning:

• 10 min easy + drills and strides + 3 x 3 min @ LTP+5s (8:19)/4 min @ LTP-5s (8:09)/2 min easy + 10 min easy

I actually did better than usual hitting paces:

1. 8:11/8:08/10:20
2. 8:20/8:14 (where I turned around which always slows me down a little)/9:49
3. 8:17/8:10/9:38

It didn't feel easy in the sense of an easy run, but it did feel easy for a workout. I actually forgot what the workout was initially and thought I had a longer recovery and then a second set of the same intervals. I wasn't mad about it either because I thought that second set would make the workout a little more challenging. So when my watch said it was time for the cooldown, I was like, "Wait, what? That's it?"

Maybe this workout just shouldn't be that hard? But also maybe after 10 weeks of training after my POT HM, my fitness has improved and I'm actually not doing these at the appropriate pace. How do I know? The only thing approaching a time trial in my plan is a 10K at 10KP+5% in 2 weeks. Do you ever change your training paces mid-plan?

ETA the T+D was also around 66+64 - I'm pretty heat-tolerant but that's not nothing.

 

[striker1064]

How do you know when/how much to adjust your training paces?

I'm sure others have their own experiences, but I stick with my training paces until I have a race that supports the idea I've gotten faster. Then I'll adjust them. Throughout a plan, things absolutely get easier for me as it wears on, a sign my fitness improved. Just based on my own experiences, I'd guess that's what's happening for you as well. I've definitely run intervals that were supposed to be anywhere from challenging to very difficult and felt they were pretty easy. Remember, the goal is to be well-prepared for your race, not to burn yourself out. If you're crushing your training and still feel like your body can give you more, your training is working.

 

[DopeyBadger]

How do you know when/how much to adjust your training paces?

A couple of considerations. According to Steve Magness (at least I believe it was him) there is a window of time in a training plan that is tricky for making changes to a training plan. The aerobic system takes about 8 weeks to reach maximization during a single training cycle. The muscular/skeletal system takes about 12 weeks to reach maximization. So that means there is a window of time from about 8-12 weeks where you're going to "feel" like you can do more because aerobically your are capable, but physically your body may not yet be prepared for it. Based on your writing above and being at 10 weeks into the training plan, you fall within this window of time.

Second, consider when the "A" race is. I don't remember which coach said it, but it takes about 6-8 weeks of training before the training is fully realized. So a common recommendation is to not change the pace scheme when you're inside 8 weeks from the race day. Once inside 8 weeks, if you change the paces to be faster, you're unlikely to see any significant gains from it, and you're only more likely to cause more fatigue without the gains.

The basis of making changes to a training plan pace scheme is usually a mid-point "B" race. A race situation is typically going to give you the best data. I'd be careful using workouts as a means to change paces. Mostly because in most scenarios, a training run isn't suppose to be a max level effort. So what feels good in moderate intervals may not be realistic in a full race situation. Given you have an upcoming 10k TT, I'd wait to use that as see if an adjustment is warranted.

• 10 min easy + drills and strides + 3 x 3 min @ LTP+5s (8:19)/4 min @ LTP-5s (8:09)/2 min easy + 10 min easy

If I'm understanding this correctly, LTP is lactate threshold pace. By definition that's roughly a pace that can be raced for about an hour (give or take). This workout is an over/under. You're doing 5 seconds slower than LTP for 3 min, and then 5 seconds faster than LTP for 4 min (total of 7 min per rep). LTP is sustainable in a training run for about 20-25 min or so, with one minute rest for every five min run. The total duration of a LTP usually shouldn't exceed about 60 min or so. So you're length of time is 7 min per rep and 21 total min. CV pace is about 2-5% faster than LTP. So if LTP is 8:14, then CV is about 8:04 min/mile. CV is usually done in reps from 3-10 min with a resting period of 1 min per 2.5 min run. The goal of this workout is trying to run through the burn. You've increased the presence of fatigue by-products and you're trying to teach your body to be more efficient at clearing those by-products.

I would categorize this workout as a low volume over/under. It is moderately difficult, but not challenging. In terms of a hard workout, maybe a 5/10. When the volume of LTP and CV is low, then it is easy to over run the workout, or for it to feel easier than you think. But if the pacing is appropriate, then stick with it despite it feeling maybe too easy. Because it's still working its intent under the hood.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

Thanks, @striker1064 and @DopeyBadger! That's really helpful. I'll stick with my current paces for this cycle and then see where we are.

 

[striker1064]

I also wanted to mention, each training plan I've followed has gotten harder leading up to peak week, but that difficulty comes from things not related to faster paces. With a few more solid weeks of training on your plan before you start tapering, I would guess you have harder workouts coming up. Increasing your paces now could make those impossible to finish.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

I also wanted to mention, each training plan I've followed has gotten harder leading up to peak week, but that difficulty comes from things not related to faster paces. With a few more solid weeks of training on your plan before you start tapering, I would guess you have harder workouts coming up. Increasing your paces now could make those impossible to finish.

Also a good point. It is true that I have not yet reached the hardest week of the plan.

 

[GollyGadget]

My biggest issue with training for a disney marathon is that the mega-hunger hits when it's time to make all of the christmas cookies and then I eat all of them.

I'm confused... I'm not supposed to make up the calories with cookies?!?

 

[WillRunForPizza]

I'm confused... I'm not supposed to make up the calories with cookies?!?

I mean, I made peanut butter cookies yesterday - that's a good balance of carbs, fat, and protein, right?

 

[Herding_Cats]

I'm confused... I'm not supposed to make up the calories with cookies?!?

On your definitely are! In my case, I tend to seem like I’m fueling for a marathon with cookies on a daily basis!

I mean, I made peanut butter cookies yesterday - that's a good balance of carbs, fat, and protein, right?

Yes. With a big glass of chocolate milk.

 

[Cabius]

I'm confused... I'm not supposed to make up the calories with cookies?!?

You gotta leave some room for chips, too!

 

[azrivest]

Yes. With a big glass of chocolate milk.

Mind blown.

I can't believe that I've never thought of that once in the last 39 years.

 

[Baloo in MI]

On your definitely are! In my case, I tend to seem like I’m fueling for a marathon with cookies on a daily basis!

Yes. With a big glass of chocolate milk.

And this is why I never lose weight from running! The more I run the hungrier I get and the few cookies are left for the family to eat (because I ate them all). And Dopey always comes around when holiday treats are plentiful! I fully support the idea of cookies and chocolate milk!!

 

[Herding_Cats]

And this is why I never lose weight from running! The more I run the hungrier I get and the few cookies are left for the family to eat (because I ate them all). And Dopey always comes around when holiday treats are plentiful! I fully support the idea of cookies and chocolate milk!!

I’ve averaged a 10# gain per marathon training cycle. And I haven’t lost it between. Sooooo yeah. Cookie season is looking dangerous

 

[Cabius]

And this is why I never lose weight from running! The more I run the hungrier I get and the few cookies are left for the family to eat (because I ate them all). And Dopey always comes around when holiday treats are plentiful! I fully support the idea of cookies and chocolate milk!!

I track every calorie I put in my body, and try to maintain a 500-calorie/day deficit with at least 100-150g protein and LOTS of carbs. It's annoying, but it's literally the only way I can avoiding gaining weight from running.

 

[HangWithMerida]

And this is why I never lose weight from running! The more I run the hungrier I get and the few cookies are left for the family to eat (because I ate them all). And Dopey always comes around when holiday treats are plentiful! I fully support the idea of cookies and chocolate milk!!

I keep hearing this from people and it hasn’t been my experience so far. Luckily I guess. I am eating more carbs for sure but my appetite sort of comes and goes. And I still don’t have any more of a sweet tooth than normal. TBH, I have a pretty robust sweet tooth normally, but I have only had maybe 2 weeks during training where I was a bottomless pit. Even then, I wanted “real” food not junk.

 

[Blue Caterpillar]

I keep hearing this from people and it hasn’t been my experience so far. Luckily I guess. I am eating more carbs for sure but my appetite sort of comes and goes. And I still don’t have any more of a sweet tooth than normal. TBH, I have a pretty robust sweet tooth normally, but I have only had maybe 2 weeks during training where I was a bottomless pit. Even then, I wanted “real” food not junk.

that is lucky! I find I can either try to lose weight or increase fitness, but at the same time is hard. After Marathon weekend I am going to try to focus on diet, for a few months before training hard again.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

I took a day off today on account of having too much vacation time to roll over and headed over to Epcot with my mom for a few hours. We got to ride Guardians of the Galaxy while we were there and it was AWESOME. Imagine Space Mountain, but super smooth and with individually rotating cars and a plot. Loved it.

ID: Nova Corps ship on the right, Epcot ball on the left

We also sampled some holiday festival treats:

• Coquito milkshake (with rum), Connections Eatery. Delicious. Would buy again. 5/5
• Eggnog and cream filled donut, The Donut Box. Yummy but the crumble on top kept falling off and making a mess. 3.5/5
• Gingerbread stout, The Donut Box. A little sweet but not overwhelmingly so. Went well with the donut. 3.5/5
• Tostada, Las Posadas. Very yummy. 4/5
• Horchata margarita, Las Posadas. Not my favorite, but I also don't like whiskey. 2/5
• Peanut stew, Refreshment Outpost. A surprising amount of heat for Disney. Don't know how authentic it was, but it tasted good. More sweet potato would have been nice. 3.5/5
• Red velvet mini bundt, Holiday Hearth Desserts. Cake was very moist and cream cheese frosting was good. The other glaze was too sweet and the sprinkles added a weird texture. 3/5
• Christmas IPA, Holiday Hearth Desserts. Shocking, a beer without any gimmicky holiday flavors. Yes please. 4/5 but mostly just for being a decent, normal beer.

Re: training hunger, when we left, my mom was stuffed and didn't even want to try the mini bundt cake, whereas I was like, "I could eat more things if we didn't have to leave now..."

 

[WillRunForPizza]

December 5 - 11, 2022
Marathon training week 12 | 28 days until WDW Marathon
In which I run a long way (still not a marathon)

Monday
Planned: 10 min easy + drills and strides + 3 x 3 min @ LTP+5s (8:19)/4 min @ LTP-5s (8:09)/2 min easy + 10 min easy
Completed: 10 min easy + drills and strides + 3 x 3 min @ LTP+5s (8:19)/4 min @ LTP-5s (8:09)/2 min easy + 10 min easy
Interval splits: 8:11/8:08/10:20, 8:20/8:14 (turnaround time)/9:49, 8:17/8:10/9:38
Total: 53:13, 5.76 miles, 158 bpm

I thought workouts were supposed to be kind of hard? Then I had a moment of panic, like maybe I'm running too slow and my training isn't working like it's supposed to and I'm going to crash during the marathon and everything is ruined... Luckily @striker1064 and @DopeyBadger got me back on track. But this theme will return.

Plus: lower body strength

I decided that since my run felt so easy, I should make my strength workout harder, so I did 3 sets of 12 instead of 2 sets of 8. And then slightly regretted that choice when I was sore for two days. Oh well.

Tuesday
Planned: 55 min easy
Completed: 1:00:03 easy (10:47)
Total: 5.57 miles, 144 bpm

It took a bit of warming up before I could move normally with the soreness. And I figured, 55 minutes, 60 minutes, how much difference is there really.

Plus: core

Plus Epcot! (Previous post)

Wednesday
Planned: 60 min easy
Completed: 1:00:08 easy (10:45)
Total: 5.59 miles, 148 bpm

I was still kind of sore and feeling rather blah about it all. For whatever reason I was just not into this run - even though my pace and HR were pretty similar to the day before, it felt a whole lot harder mentally.

Thursday
Planned: 10 min easy + drills and strides + 5 x 30s @ SSP (8:40)/20s @ MAS (7:09)/10s @ VHI (<7:09) + 6 min easy + 5 x 30s @ SSP/20s @ MAS/10s @ VHI + 10 min easy
Completed: 10 min easy + drills and strides + 5 x 30s @ SSP (8:40)/20s @ MAS (7:09)/10s @ VHI (<7:09) + 6 min easy + 5 x 30s @ SSP/20s @ MAS/10s @ VHI + 10 min easy
Interval splits: that's a joke, right?
Total: 46:28, 4.7 miles, 160 bpm

While similar to last week's very short interval workout, this one was a lot easier. (Too easy?) But it's still really annoying to have zero feedback on whether you're hitting your paces. The intervals are too short for the data to be valid.

Friday
Planned: 55 min easy
Completed: 1:00:03 (10:41)
Total: 5.62 miles, 147 bpm

Fine. Unmemorable. Added 5 minutes again.

Plus: upper body strength

Followed by a visit to Animal Kingdom, including the safari, Everest, and Flights of Passage. The giraffes were right next to the road!


ID: A giraffe reaching up to a palm tree for a snack

Saturday
Planned: 18 miles easy
Completed: 18.06 miles easy (9:50)
Total: 2:57:44, 154 bpm

This is it. The big one. The one we've all been waiting for.

(“We know Oliver’s speech by heart,” Fred told Harry, “we were on the team last year.”)

Okay, maybe just me.

This 18-mile run is the longest (though perhaps not the hardest) of my training plan. I felt good and even a little giddy starting out. I had myself mini-celebrations for all the milestones I could come up with: single digits to go, halfway, half marathon. The weather even cooperated for about half of my run with cloud cover and a nice cool breeze.

Around 9 miles in the cloud cover started to clear, which was unfortunate because I still haven't figured out sun protection on long runs. If I put sunscreen on before I leave, I'll have sweated it off by the time I need it anyway, and if I carry it with me, which I don't want to do, I can't put it on because I'm all sweaty and don't want to stop running. Has anyone come up with a workable strategy for this?

Other than the increasing sun, I still felt good until the half-marathon point, when a carousel of minor aches started cycling through. First my glutes hurt, then my quads, then my hips, then my foot, then back to my glutes. I ignored it all but it started to get tiring.

With about 5K to go, I was ready to be done, and my mini-celebration had devolved into a general sense of "oh good, are we there yet?" With about 3/4 of a mile to go, I had finished my 2L bladder of water. Then, finally, I was done. I felt okay until I slowed to a walk, when my legs promptly screeched, "WHAT have you DONE to us??" The first couple of minutes of my cooldown walk probably looked a little like I was drunk. This is why I don't do run/walk.

My legs ached for the rest of the day, but once I remembered how to walk again, I actually felt better when I was up and moving around than when I was resting. I got plenty of additional time on my feet between walking the dog and fixing meals and cookies. I thought about taking a nap but decided that not napping was better preparation for marathon + Epcot time, so I powered through. Or at least shuffled through.

With my longest run of the plan/ever in the books, I feel...okay looking four weeks ahead to the marathon. I definitely could have run at least a couple more miles at the end (at least if I had more water). Not sure about 8 more but I'll be in a different place on race day with the taper behind me. I'm happy that I got through it without any serious issues and was able to maintain my pace throughout - I aim for a bit faster than normal easy pace on long runs because the time savings is significant, and while I most certainly felt tired in the last few miles, my pace stayed pretty consistent. Also I didn't make my toenails any worse, so that's a plus.

Fuel
Pre-run: coffee and toast with peanut butter and cinnamon
40ish minutes: Maurten gel
80ish minutes: caramel macchiato GU
120ish minutes: almond butter packet
Immediate post-run: blueberry yogurt smoothie

I finally managed to try the almond butter on a run. I liked having something besides sugar in my stomach, but it was hard to eat. I do have a smaller packet that I got from the OUC HM, so I may try that at the marathon. Also it was kind of annoying to have to carry it around until I found a trash can - it was too messy to stick in my pocket. So overall I'm kind of meh about it.

Sunday
Planned: rest
Completed: rest

I am fortunately not too sore and not too sunburned today. My calves are making themselves known a bit, which is unusual for me, but it's less soreness than a greater sense of awareness of their presence. I'll still do some extra foam rolling and stretching throughout the day.

Total
Mileage: 45.3
Time: 9:04:02

This week was an odd one. Other than the longer long run, it was actually easier than last week, which is not what I was expecting from the peak long run of the program. It actually would have been shorter total mileage than last week too if I hadn't done 60 instead of 55-minute long runs on Tuesday and Friday. Seems a little weird. That also meant that the 18-miler was nearly 40% of my mileage for the week, which I don't think is the goal as a general rule. So while I'm happy I got through it all, I feel a little let down by the weekday runs.

Coming up
Either a cutback week or the start of the taper, depending on how you look at it. Since the following week really is the hardest week of the plan, I'm looking at it more like the former. And TBD whether I swap Thursday's hill workout for something else on account of not having hills.