Would Natasha Richardson survived if she would have been in US?

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That still doesn't mean it would have been different if this was in the US. This could have happened anywhere.

Ya I agree...but Montreal needs to get a helipad asap. I can't imagine not having quick access to Vancouver if it was neededand without the helicopter we'd be looking at best a 2 hour trip depending on ferries/traffic. Our hospital is outstanding and isn't lacking for diagnostic equipment. But the best minds and research are in Vancouver, I'm sure it's a similar situation around any of the really large cities in Canada. Even if it wouldn't have made a difference here, it very well could in the future.
 
Hmm ... aren't there plenty of teeny hospitals in the US without CT scanners and other kinds of equipment?

My dad ended up in a teeny rural hospital when he started having what he thought were esophageal spasms and got really dehydrated. They kinda poked and prodded him a bit and hemmed and hawed then told him they didn't even have a scope to look down there, and nor did they have a gastroenterologist (tiny 12 bed hospital). What the heck kind of hospital doesn't have the ability to scope somebody?

They sent him off to another one in "the big city" ;) (45 mins away from the teeny one) and they quickly took a look in there and figured out what was going on (esophageal strictures).

I sincerely doubt that hospital # 1 had a CT scanner. The point is that folks die or suffer all the time in the US and a lot of other places when they're out in BFE and rural health care systems are inadequate.

I think the main issue underlying her death is rural access to care, NOT anything to do with different national health systems.
 
From another thread. This is what happens when a patient receives appropriate and timely care when there is a head injury.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/26...ncy/index.html

updated 9:26 a.m. EDT, Thu March 26, 2009
Natasha's lesson helps save Ohio girl
By Elizabeth Cohen
CNN Senior Medical Correspondent

(CNN) -- Connie and Donald McCracken were watching CNN one evening last week when they learned of the tragic death of actress Natasha Richardson from a head injury. Immediately, their minds turned to their 7-year-old daughter, Morgan, who was upstairs getting ready for bed.

Two days earlier, Morgan, her father, and brother had been playing baseball in the yard of their Mentor, Ohio, home when her father hit a line drive that landed just above Morgan's left temple. A lump formed, but the McCrackens iced it down and the swelling subsided within an hour.

"For the next two days, she was perfectly fine," Donald McCracken says. "She had no symptoms. She went to school both days and got an A on her spelling test as usual. There were no issues whatsoever."

But after hearing about Richardson's death, the McCrackens wondered if Morgan was really as OK as she seemed. After all, Richardson had been talking and lucid immediately after her fatal injury.

When they went upstairs to kiss Morgan good night, she complained of a headache. "Because of Natasha, we called the pediatrician immediately. And by the time I got off the phone with him, Morgan was sobbing, her head hurt so much," McCracken says.

The McCrackens took Morgan to the emergency room at LakeWest Hospital in neighboring Willoughby, where doctors ordered a CT scan and immediately put Morgan on a helicopter to Rainbow Babies and Children's Hospital in Cleveland, with her father by her side.

"I knew it was bad when she had to get there by helicopter in six minutes, instead of the 30 minutes it would have taken to get to Cleveland in an ambulance," McCracken said.

When the helicopter arrived at Rainbow, the McCrackens were greeted by Dr. Alan Cohen, the hospital's chief of pediatric neurosurgery. He whisked Morgan into the operating room, pausing for a moment to tell McCracken that his daughter had the same injury as Richardson: an epidural hematoma.

McCracken remembers standing in the emergency room, feeling like the life had just been sucked out of him. "My heart sank," he says. "It just sank."

Unlike Richardson's, Morgan's story has a happy ending. After surgery and five days in the hospital, she's at home and doing fine. "Dr. Cohen told us that if we hadn't brought her in Thursday night, she never would have woken up," McCracken says.

Now the McCrackens sometimes wonder if they waited too long to get Morgan to a doctor. After hearing about Richardson's death, many people are asking themselves the same question: Do all head injuries need attention, even ones that seem minor?

"Sometimes there's a gray zone, and there's no right answer," Cohen says. Watch for tips on when to go to the ER »

In most cases, it's pretty clear when someone needs medical attention after a head injury, says Greg Ayotte, a spokesperson for the Brain Injury Association of America and a cognitive rehabilitation therapist. "They're confused, they're agitated, or they might be dizzy or unresponsive," he says.

But then there's what doctors call the "talk and die" scenario, where someone seems fine, only to die hours, or sometimes even days later.

"Talk and die" can happen with several different kinds of brain injuries. In the case of epidural hematomas, the injury Richardson and Morgan had, blood pools in the area between the lining of the brain and the skull. "Fluid is building up in a contained space, creating pressure. Something's got to give, and that something is the brain," Ayotte says. If you don't get to the hospital to have surgery to drain the fluid, "the deterioration can happen very quickly."

Here, from Ayotte and other experts, is a list of what to do after someone has suffered a head injury.

1. Be vigilant

Keep an eye on someone who has hit his head, even if the person never lost consciousness. "A lot of folks are still under the assumption that as long as you're not knocked out, you're OK, and that's not true," Ayotte says.

2. Look for dizziness, vomiting, headache and confusion

If the injured person has these signs, take him or her to an emergency room, says Dr. Jam Ghajar, clinical professor of neurological surgery at Weill Cornell Medical College in New York, and president of the Brain Trauma Foundation.

3. Look for changes in symptoms and behavior

Any sudden change, such as Morgan's headache going from mild to severe in minutes, means the person needs medical attention. For example, Ghajar says, if a person gets suddenly sleepy in the first 12 hours after a hit, it may mean the parts of the brain responsible for staying awake are experiencing pressure from a bleed.

4. Be especially wary if someone a) has been drinking alcohol, b) is on blood thinners, c) is elderly or d) is a young athlete

It's tough to distinguish brain-injured behavior from drunken behavior, so when in doubt, take the person to the hospital, Ghajar says. Also, blood thinners can turn a mild bleed into a major bleed, so be especially vigilant if the injured person is taking blood thinners such as warfarin.

He also warns people to be extra vigilant when an elderly person hits his or her head. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has information on traumatic brain injury and senior citizens. The CDC also has information on concussions in young athletes.

5. Go to a certified trauma center if you can

The American College of Surgeons has a list of certified trauma facilities; a hospital that's not a trauma center may not have a neurosurgeon on call. You can also look on this map from the American Trauma Society. Find your state, select trauma centers, update the map, and you can find information about trauma centers in your area.

The McCrackens say they look back and still can't believe Morgan suffered such a severe injury and didn't show any signs for 48 hours. "She didn't black out, her speech wasn't slurred, she wasn't dizzy, she wasn't any of the things you'd expect," McCracken says. "And you don't want to be one of those panicky parents who takes their child to the emergency room all the time."

Cohen's advice after a head injury: When in doubt, go. "It's always better to err on the side of being conservative," he says.
 
There are teo many variable to give an answer to your question, the first being she refused treatment.

How many hospitals in small communities (9000 in this case) would have a neurosurgeon in the hospital?

Her initially refusing treatment was "voided" by her calling for emergency treatment when she became symptomatic in her hotel room. By then there was a history; EMS arriving after the initial head injury with some assessment, or at least an understanding of what happened, and then being called to a hotel room where she was having neurological symptoms. What should have been done at that point, because obviously someone knew when she was injured, was to call for an air evac. If that happened, she probably would have lived. She was conscious on arrival at the smaller hospital. By chopper, she could have been in Montreal by the time they got her at the first hospital. Furthermore, no one understands the Canadian system better than the EMS responders who SHOULD know what each hospital has for assets. They should have known that the hospital that they transported her to, has no Ct, no neurosurgeon, and did not have the capability of handling this type of injury. They should have immediately called for air transport when they were called back to care for her.
 

By chopper, she could have been in Montreal by the time they got her at the first hospital. Furthermore, no one understands the Canadian system better than the EMS responders who SHOULD know what each hospital has for assets. They should have known that the hospital that they transported her to, has no Ct, no neurosurgeon, and did not have the capability of handling this type of injury. They should have immediately called for air transport when they were called back to care for her.

The problem is that there is NO helicopter available in Quebec. The government won't pay for it. Only a few provinces in Canada have medical helicopters: British Columbia, Ontario and Nova Scotia. Quebec does have the medical transport planes, that transport people from rural areas to metropolitan areas for care, but there are no helicopters available to reach out of the way places like Tremblant.
 
The problem is that there is NO helicopter available in Quebec. The government won't pay for it. Only a few provinces in Canada have medical helicopters: British Columbia, Ontario and Nova Scotia. Quebec does have the medical transport planes, that transport people from rural areas to metropolitan areas for care, but there are no helicopters available to reach out of the way places like Tremblant.

Wow I just thought it was the norm, I can't imagine seeing a hospital without the helipad :(
 
That still doesn't mean it would have been different if this was in the US. This could have happened anywhere.

Most US hospitals have a CT scan. Many have a neurosurgeon on call. Most that didn't, would have had an emergency room physician who would have been able to drill burr holes.
 
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That still doesn't mean it would have been different if this was in the US. This could have happened anywhere.

The problem is that there is NO helicopter available in Quebec. The government won't pay for it. Only a few provinces in Canada have medical helicopters: British Columbia, Ontario and Nova Scotia. Quebec does have the medical transport planes, that transport people from rural areas to metropolitan areas for care, but there are no helicopters available to reach out of the way places like Tremblant.

Well that is a horse of a different color. No air transport, no CT scan and once becoming symptomatic, she was doomed being so far from an appropriate hospital. Yes, I think she would have survived in the USA.
 
Well that is a horse of a different color. No air transport, no CT scan and once becoming symptomatic, she was doomed being so far from an appropriate hospital. Yes, I think she would have survived in the USA.

She also could have survived elsewhere in Canada.
 
There is helicopter service in Quebec - I've been flown on one. From Chicoutimi to Montreal (I know I ended up at Montreal Childrens, but I *think* the helicopter may have landed at a different hospital (I was small and sick - not really paying attention or remembering)).

And I watch the helicopters land at the Toronto Sick Kids every day - my office overlooks the helipad. One of about 3 in a radius of a couple of blocks.

Not only are we playing Monday quarterback, but we are playing Monday quarterback without all the facts. It is possible that she would have been saved in the US, it is possible that she wouldn't have been. It is also possible that she would have been saved had she worn a helmet, not refused the first ambulance, etc.
 
According to a recent WHO ranking of the world's healthcare systems, Canada placed 7 spots better than the US. I don't think she would have had a better chance at survival in the US.
 
She also could have survived elsewhere in Canada.

That too.
According to a recent WHO ranking of the world's healthcare systems, Canada placed 7 spots better than the US. I don't think she would have had a better chance at survival in the US.

I think that totally depends upon which parameters are being measured. Emergency medical service? Preventive care? Vaccine compliance? Well baby check ups? Oncology? Orthopedic surgery? Timely diagnostics, MRI, CT? I can get an MRI the day it is ordered if necessary, I have and for something as non life threatening as a torn rotator cuff. Most Americans can. Would I trade my health care for the Canadian system? Not a chance!
 
I can get an MRI the day it is ordered if necessary, I have and for something as non life threatening as a torn rotator cuff. Most Americans can.


So long as you have the funds to pay for it. What if you don't? Universal Healthcare in Canada means that every single person has equal access to healthcare, regardless of if they're living on welfare or spending their days at the local country club.
 
Am I the only one with South Park's Blame Canada stuck in my head?
It seems that everything's gone wrong
Since Canada came along
Blame Canada
Blame Canada
They're not even a real country anyway
 
I agree with everything Dawn says.

Well, at least on this thread :laughing:

...and nice try, Bobbles. Y'all just can't go quietly into the sunset, can ya...
 
So long as you have the funds to pay for it. What if you don't? Universal Healthcare in Canada means that every single person has equal access to healthcare, regardless of if they're living on welfare or spending their days at the local country club.

That is just not so. Anyone presenting to the emergency room, regardless of their ability to pay, gets treated appropriately and equally. If that includes an MRI and brain surgery, that is what they get. If they require hospitalization in ICU for weeks, that is what they get. The nurses and doctors at the bedside do not concern themselves with their ability to pay.
 
Wow I just thought it was the norm, I can't imagine seeing a hospital without the helipad :(


I am not sure where the writer got their info but the hospital that she was taken to has a helipad

Sacre-Coeur Hospital Montreal QC 45°31′58″N 073°42′44″W

and there is also one near the original hospital

Sainte-Agathe-des-Monts QC 46°07′00″N 074°18′00″W.
 
If she refused initial medical attention like she did in Canada the same thing would have happened no matter where she was....
 
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