Will there every be a 5th theme park?

[fey_spirit]

I will agree that the third gate still needs work, but the fourth is fine just the way she is... if they add any more there, there wont be time to get in and get everything done before they close the gates at that ungodly early hour... esp in peak season.

I think if they want more people to come one of the first things they need to adress are the complaints that we hear from those who don't go... one of those complaints is that "it's too crowded" a 5th gate would pull people away from the other parks that is very very true, but that doesn't have to be a bad thing if it make it a more pleasant experience thus drawing more people.

Then again I l cling desperatly to the hopes for a fifth gate because they've all but killed my favorite part of Disney in the parks (The villans) and I would love to see a Villans land complete with extreme chills and thrills - not to mention that would help give them an edge in the one market that Universal tends to beat them out on.

 

[DancingBear]

I will agree that the third gate still needs work, but the fourth is fine just the way she is... if they add any more there, there wont be time to get in and get everything done before they close the gates at that ungodly early hour... esp in peak season.

First, if that is the standard (too much stuff to do to get everything done in one day during peak season), then I guess Magic Kingdom fails that also.

Second, how about they stay open later?

 

[fey_spirit]

The diffrence between MK and AK is that there is too much to do in one afternoon at the Mk, and plenty to do over two or three days...

At AK it's almost impossible to do everything in one day now - but not enough there to make it worth going for more then one day... (That is if you're after more then the animals... I suppose if you wanted to go for rides and shows for one day, and animals the next... even then...)

They would have to do more then brush Ak up a little to make it worth spending two days there - if I want to look at animals while in Disney World I can hop over to AKL and not spend the money on park tickets...

Besides you miss the most important part :lanting tounge firmly in cheek:: I want my Villans! In all seroiusness though I note you didn't mention any argument that having a park based on the conept of providing thrills and chills right along with the other four family fun parks would give them an edge in that area when competing with Universal... they have a hard time putting these in the other parks in any real number because then the parents of young kids start complaing about how little Jhonny can't ride that yet... never mind that something like this would keep Litte Jhonny wanting to come back after he turns 16 and starts thinking Universal is superior because it has better coaster & Thrill ratio.

First, if that is the standard (too much stuff to do to get everything done in one day during peak season), then I guess Magic Kingdom fails that also.

Second, how about they stay open later?

 

[G8r4evr]

I agree, MGM needs alot of work, but I looove AK!!

 

[Another Voice]

Will there ever be a fifth theme park?

Not in the way we think about them.

Disney is currently in love with the idea of the "premium park". Traditional theme parks are huge investments which need a constant stream of guests. It's a "low margin, high volume" business. In the travel industry, constantly getting lots of people to fly/drive/rail/bus their way to Orlando is a daunting challenge.

Disney wants to go the other way - "high margin, low volume". That means charging a few people big bucks for a lot smaller experience. Think about the way spas have sprouted up all over the place. People don't want to wait in long lines and be serviced en masse anymore. People want something more personal and less of a hassle - and they'll pay huge bucks for it.

The current model is SeasWorld's Dolphin Cove where for big bucks you can swim, look at birds, eat a better-than-theme park meal and torment captive marine mammals without the crowds and poor people that populate other theme parks.

Disney wants something just like that.

One of the big problems, however, is coming up with an idea that will have people pay $500+ a day to see AND that Disney can make on a budget that will turn a profit on it's opening day. People aren't going to settle for modest California Adventure level attractions for that kind of ticket; Disney's real attractions are based paybacks of years and years with millions of visitors.

They've talked about creating something based on old video games, took a stab at creating a "magical relam" outside of standard Disney fare (this place has to appeal to well-heeled adults, not the people who trade Mickey pins). And of course there was the stab at 'Harry Potter'. But everything has turned up either unmarketable or not "Disney" enough (as in pushing the brand) to get any interest. The sad fact for Disney is that "The Brand" doesn't appeal to the $300 for a facial set. The Disney Institute was a huge and massively expensive attempt at the market and it was a tremendous failure.

 

[disneyfan67]

I have read all the responses and it provided some interesting thought. I don't think Disney should add another gate, unless it was just like the park in Japan, Tokyo Disney Sea. Which from everything I could get my hands on about it, is an impressive park.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_DisneySea

I doubt with all the money tied up in to the new cruise ships and a possible 3rd park in Disneyland, that Disney would take on a big expense like Tokyo Disney Sea. I read in different places, including the link of above that it was in the range of 5 Billion dollars back a decade or so. I couldn't imagine the cost now. I would love to be able to see a park of that quality in the U.S.

I would like to see WDW rebuild and add more attractions to the parks they already have. MK really should get the updated sub ride like Disneyland is getting in June, plus a few others, and expand MGM (Pixar) studios. That is one park that could use some more rides. How about finally expanding the monorail line to go to AK and AKL? I would make AKL my home resort if the transportation wasn't limited to just taking the bus. You want to get more people through the gates at AK? Build a Monorail line to it, add a couple more attractions and they will come.

 

[GreatLakes5]

IMK really should get the updated sub ride like Disneyland is getting in June, plus a few others, and expand MGM (Pixar) studios. That is one park that could use some more rides. How about finally expanding the monorail line to go to AK and AKL? I would make AKL my home resort if the transportation wasn't limited to just taking the bus. You want to get more people through the gates at AK? Build a Monorail line to it, add a couple more attractions and they will come.

I'm going to date myself with the first question -

When did Nemo's sub get taken away/replaced? (That would be Captain Nemo, not the orange fish ) It was a staple for me as a child.

Secondly, I agree with the monorail or SOMETHING...perhaps part of the reason we didn't thrill with AK as I thought we would was that, apart from those at the AKL, it felt so removed. I realize big animals need big space, but I do wonder if either something - anything - could be done in between to make it feel closer OR the monorail could be extended. laughing: at the thought of extending the monorail being said like it's just so easy to do...)

 

[XImagineer]

We all know that Disney has the land for more parks, and probably the demand is there to build them, but the real problem facing WDW is staffing the existing parks and resorts they have.

When I got hired back in the early 80s as a ride operator, they only hired something like 1 out of every 20 applicants. Now, there is greater competition in the area for employees, an area that has a very low unemployment rate at that, and Disney is having a really hard time filling existing jobs. The locals tend to shy away from it, as Disney is notoriously a low payer. Its not an exaggeration that you can make more at the local McDonald's here than you can as a Disney employee. The low pay and disproportionate rise in the cost-of-living has turned off a lot of quality people from moving down here and taking Disney jobs to get "get their foot in the door". The College Program has been expanded tremendously, but staffing your company with a revolving door of temporary employees is not the most sound business decision for the long term.

When Disney can once again staff its parks and resorts with quality people, that will be the time to start looking at expansion. Until then, don't expect too much.

 

[disneyfan67]

I'm going to date myself with the first question -

When did Nemo's sub get taken away/replaced? (That would be Captain Nemo, not the orange fish ) It was a staple for me as a child.

Secondly, I agree with the monorail or SOMETHING...perhaps part of the reason we didn't thrill with AK as I thought we would was that, apart from those at the AKL, it felt so removed. I realize big animals need big space, but I do wonder if either something - anything - could be done in between to make it feel closer OR the monorail could be extended. laughing: at the thought of extending the monorail being said like it's just so easy to do...)

According to Widen your World (link below), the "20,000 Leagues under the Sea" sub ride made it's last voyage in August of 1994. It is now a lame "Winnie the Pooh" play ground area with a soft floor surface for the liitle ones and a complete waste of prime realestate, IMO.

http://www.omniluxe.net/wyw/20K.htm


I'm a firm believer that Disney should add a monorail line to AK and it would improve that parks attendence figures. It would be great to be able to ride over to AK or AKL just for part of the day to just ride Everest or go to AKL and just check everything out and get a bite to eat. People who have never set foot in AKL would see how unique it is and plan to stay there on their next visit.

 

[thefirebuilds]

Monorails make tigers impotent. Duh.

 

[G8r4evr]

According to Widen your World (link below), the "20,000 Leagues under the Sea" sub ride made it's last voyage in August of 1994. It is now a lame "Winnie the Pooh" play ground area with a soft floor surface for the liitle ones and a complete waste of prime realestate, IMO.

http://www.omniluxe.net/wyw/20K.htm


I'm a firm believer that Disney should add a monorail line to AK and it would improve that parks attendence figures. It would be great to be able to ride over to AK or AKL just for part of the day to just ride Everest or go to AKL and just check everything out and get a bite to eat. People who have never set foot in AKL would see how unique it is and plan to stay there on their next visit.

Expanding the monorail is near the top of my Disney Wish List. Im really surprised that TPTB havent made this a focus. Is it really the expensive...in Disney Dollars?

 

[CanadianGuy]

I have heard some RI-DONK-CULOUS figures floated for expanding the monorail.. Numbers like $5 to 12 million per mile or something like that.

Part of the problem I'm told is that some of the land the monorail routes would pass thru is either flood plain or just plain ol' swamp. So sinking pilings to bedrock (where it exists) to support the monorail properly could cost MEGA $$$... and taking a route that avoids these areas adds significant distance.

Anyone else have details on this?

Knox

 

[ChrisFL]

I have heard some RI-DONK-CULOUS figures floated for expanding the monorail.. Numbers like $5 to 12 million per mile or something like that.

Part of the problem I'm told is that some of the land the monorail routes would pass thru is either flood plain or just plain ol' swamp. So sinking pilings to bedrock (where it exists) to support the monorail properly could cost MEGA $$$... and taking a route that avoids these areas adds significant distance.

Anyone else have details on this?

Knox

No details but it wouldn't surprise me about the swampland...I mean WDW's property was mostly swamp and sinkholes are abound in Florida due to the high water table. I know that could cause issues with expanding the monorail.

Although no one has mentioned MGM. Epcot and MGM are very close to each other and it doesn't seem that difficult to have some kind of transport to it thats faster than the boat or the awful buses.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

I have heard some RI-DONK-CULOUS figures floated for expanding the monorail.. Numbers like $5 to 12 million per mile or something like that.

If Disney could expand the WDW Monorail for a mere $5 to 12 million per mile, they would jump at the opportunity.

The Las Vegas Monorail cost $166.7 million per mile. It uses the same Bombardier technology (which Bombardier acquired from Disney) as the WDW monorail.

Now, Las Vegas and WDW are different terrains with different challenges. Maybe the WDW monorail could be expanded for half of the cost per mile as the Las Vegas Monorail. Maybe not.

Of course, after the construction costs, there are operating costs. Yes, there would some savings from fewer buses on those bus routes that are eliminated. But, in the end, a monorail expansion is an expensive undertaking, and one that doesn't produce direct revenue.

 

[CanadianGuy]

Thanks Horace.. But didn't the Vegas monorail costs include substantial costs of land acquisition etc? (Just checking - I'm not sure on this)

I couldn't remember the amounts I had heard for Disney exactly and didn't want to exaggerate.. A quick search reveals that my numbers were way low considering that in 1959 Disney built the DL monorail -- 8/10 of a mile for just around a million 1959 dollars.. So obviously.. it would be many factors of that now...

Knox

 

[Another Voice]

Various different routes have all been mapped out and surveyed, stations have been designed and essentially everything is ready for the bulldozers to roll. Expansion of the monorail system was built into the design of EPCOT Center back in 1982; it's been expected with each addition to the park since then.

The problem is that Disney won't make a big enough profit from it.

When WDW first opened, there was a charge for transporation. Most people never saw it, it was included in your passport price (but printed on the ticket), or came in the price of your resort room. For a lot of politicial, legal and tax reasons, WDW Transportation Co. was done away with* and the monorail became "free".

So now WDW is looking at a several hundred million investment with no obvious revenue stream to pay for it. There is no way they will spend that kind of money to iincrease attendance at Animal Kingdom when they could spend that same amount of money to make & market Pirates of the Caribbean 4: Plunder The Franchise and (hopefully) make gobs of money.


* - General Motors, sponsor of a not-small pavilion at Epcot to the tune of $100+ million dollars has spent the last half century killing transportation systems in cities across America. WDW wasn't any different.

 

[doconeill]

I would love to see a monorail expansion.

Perhaps rather than "extending" to MGM, they could shift and have a station in the vicinity of the International Gateway or find space between BW and BC/YC? MGM would be a short distance from there, and the resorts can be serviced as well. Its a relatively small expansion without the land issues.

AK is far more difficult as its so remote to everything else.

 

[G8r4evr]

Thanks Horace.. But didn't the Vegas monorail costs include substantial costs of land acquisition etc? (Just checking - I'm not sure on this)

I couldn't remember the amounts I had heard for Disney exactly and didn't want to exaggerate.. A quick search reveals that my numbers were way low considering that in 1959 Disney built the DL monorail -- 8/10 of a mile for just around a million 1959 dollars.. So obviously.. it would be many factors of that now...

Knox

Good grief, I had no idea of the cost. It doesnt sound like we will see a monorail expanion in our lifetime

 

[Lord Fantasius]

Who says the monorail doesn't produce direct revenue? A quick review of deluxe resorts will show that even rooms with a view of the parking lot at a monorail resort will fetch a $25 - $50 premium over a similar rooom at a non-monorail resort. Honestly, if people could jump on a monorail from the AKL and have breakfast at the CR, lunch at GF and dinner at Poly watching the fireworks without stepping foot in a bus I think they would fill AKL at far higher room rates than they are charging now. Not to mention any other deluxe resort connected to the monorail (think WL).

Secondly, the LV monorail construction costs weren't even close to $166m / mile. Back when it was being constructed, information was easier to find but an accountant's review of the so-called cost to build the LV monorail showed that almost half of the oft-quoted price tag was for the purchase of land, and zoning and easement changes/permits. Additionally, built into the bond issue (which is the "price tag" usually referred to) was a 25% premium that was used to repay the initial investors so they would not be out any money even if the monorail did not make any money. Ergo, the only people at risk for losing their shirts were the municipality and the people buying the bonds. If I remember correctly, the analyst showed that only about a quarter, if a third possibly, of the extravagant sum usually thrown around was actually utilized to build the entire thing, or around $25m/mile, including stations, equipment, everything!

The biggest hurdle of course at WDW is driving pilings into the march/swamp area to support the rail, but even that is feasible with the right engineering. The actual cost of building the monorail track would really be around $10m/mile, sans stations, equipment, etc., which is about what the actual construction figures for LV after backing-out political contributions/graft which I'm expecting would be notably less at Disney.

Sadly, however, I don't think Disney, Inc., will ever extend the monorail since the corporation is ruled by short-sighted management who probably didn't even ride a monorail until they took their position at Disney, Inc. Hence, they have little understanding of the dreams and imagination the monorail inspires in young (and old) kids, nor understand the big reason DL and WDW are so fantastical to a lot of people..they are NOT just another resort or theme park, they are imaginary realms made physical.

And no, the last time I thought a bus was a fantastical creation was when I was saying choo-choo and eating mashed peas out of a food jar.

-R

 

[thefirebuilds]

Wait, how about a bus with TVs on it!!?!?!?