Why do I feel like a 2nd class citizen?

[Tara]

what about when someone gets upgraded from a value to a dvc resort its nearly always a 1 bedroom, if your staying in a studio thats a better room. yet no dvc member would get that upgrade.

So what? How often is that non-member going to get that upgrade?

 

[Muushka]

So what? How often is that non-member going to get that upgrade?

Surprisingly more than I care to read about on the resort boards.

 

[Chuck S]

what about when someone gets upgraded from a value to a dvc resort its nearly always a 1 bedroom, if your staying in a studio thats a better room. yet no dvc member would get that upgrade.

How do they pick one DVCer paying with points over another? Also, wouldn't routinely upgrading DVCers be illegally "overselling" the resorts? They have to have the potential that all sold points be used in a given year...routine DVC point upgrades would eliminate that possibility.

 

[jlewisinsyr]

Remember, if a DVC room is used out of member inventory, the proceeds for that room are used to offset dues (breakage). I still hold an interest to know what the conversion is from CRO to DVC when they upgrade someone paying a Value rate to a DVC resort, does CRO pay the DVC charge or pass through the value rate?

 

[Tara]

Surprisingly more than I care to read about on the resort boards.

I think you misunderstood my question. My point is that any individual non-member is very unlikely to get that sort of upgrade more than once.

 

[Dean]

The referenced upgrades come from cash inventory that is not (or no longer) owned by DVC members.

As I've said before, someone else getting a benefit is not hurting a DVC member in any way. There are many groups that have historically gotten discounts that are not open to other including most DVC members unless they fit into the other group AND often they have to forego a DVC stay to take advantage of the other options. Certainly it does reduce the dollar value of DVC by reducing the potential costs on the cash side of the ledger. Still I'm confident that DVC will still end up being a value IF it was a reasonable option for that person to start with. I think the problem is that some people bought in without a clear benefit and now they are realizing DVC didn't make as much sense for them as they thought it did.

 

[DebbieB]

what about when someone gets upgraded from a value to a dvc resort its nearly always a 1 bedroom, if your staying in a studio thats a better room. yet no dvc member would get that upgrade.

If you notice, typically it only happens at OKW & SSR, which CRO seems to have a hard time filling. They don't have the easy park access that the deluxe resorts do to attract non-members but the cost is comparable. I think they hope they will like it and book it in the future or buy DVC. Plus it opens up a value room which they have a high demand for.

 

[jlewisinsyr]

The referenced upgrades come from cash inventory that is not (or no longer) owned by DVC members.

I understand that, but my question is, cash inventory is revenue that is considered breakge, right? If so, what is the cash equivalent being credited to the breakage.

 

[Inkmahm]

If you notice, typically it only happens at OKW & SSR, which CRO seems to have a hard time filling. They don't have the easy park access that the deluxe resorts do to attract non-members but the cost is comparable. I think they hope they will like it and book it in the future or buy DVC. Plus it opens up a value room which they have a high demand for.

I have to admit, someone I know is taking their family to WDW for the very first time in 2010. I know they don't have a lot of money so I suggested they stay in a value hotel onsite. Even that is a stretch for them. I suggested the value hotel hoping there is a chance that they will get a free upgrade to SSR or OKW. That would be great! And no skin off my nose if they do...

 

[Dean]

I understand that, but my question is, cash inventory is revenue that is considered breakge, right? If so, what is the cash equivalent being credited to the breakage.

Some yes, some no. Cash inventory includes breakage, units given up for exchanges and inventory owned by DVD (unsold or retained). I don't think any of us know exactly what cash inventory they're using and I suspect it spans the gamut. IF Disney uses any cash inventory for upgrades, they will pay DVC for it if applicable and those dollars will go to DVCMC to offset dues up to the limit set forth in the POS, any overage that is breakage inventory is profit for DVCMC. Typically DVC only gets back half the $$$ generated by a given cash rental, the rest goes other directions but this is only for rented inventory, my understanding is that non rented inventory is not compensated at all. I am not aware of an arrangement whereby Disney pays less to DVC than they would if they rented it out right but you never know. Still, IF it's cash inventory where DVC should be paid, they would be paid in this situation. One way to look at it is that if a given unit is not rented in some way, DVC gets nothing. Ultimately Disney is renting the units they use for the upgrades though other than the breakage inventory, they're essentially renting from themselves.

 

[Brian Noble]

But, whatever. Some years there won't be 40 percent discounts and the savings will be higher. Just the way it goes.

Lark is right on the money. The DVC "deal" is that you commit to a lifetime of vacations at WDW at a certain price. In exchange, Disney gives you a sizable discount on the lodging portion of your vacations. In essence, Disney is paying you to take on some of Disney's risk. If a cash guest decides that Disney is no longer for them, they just stop going. If a Member decides that Disney is no longer for them, they must somehow dispose of the Membership or use it in some other way.

Another way to look at it: Disney is treating DVC as a hedge against short-term decreases in travel demand. It's no accident that, since 9/11, Disney has not started construction of a single cash rental room, but has opened hundreds of DVC rooms in the same span. Indeed, they've even *removed* rooms from the cash rental pool to open these DVC units (top floors of AKL and the North Wing at CR). The Member is treating it as a hedge against long-term increases in travel demand, instead. The cost of lodging is essentially fixed, modulo any unexpected increases in dues. In the years where demand slumps, the cash guest makes out a little better. In the years that demand is strong, the Member makes out a little better.

As economic expansion is more common than contraction, it is likely that the Member has a nice deal over the long term. What's more, this is likely to be a win for both parties. Disney has a built in "dampener" for travel demand fluctuation year to year, and more predictable revenue streams and occupancy---that, in itself, has economic value. But, over the long haul, leisure lodging prices rise faster than inflation. The only way that Disney loses is if travel demand grows significantly faster than they have forecast (in which case they should have charged more for Membership and/or had more cash rooms). The only way that the Member loses is if travel demand collapses over the long term---possible if oil becomes chronically scarce, but otherwise unlikely.

 

[going/again]

How do they pick one DVCer paying with points over another? Also, wouldn't routinely upgrading DVCers be illegally "overselling" the resorts? They have to have the potential that all sold points be used in a given year...routine DVC point upgrades would eliminate that possibility.

i never said they should pick one dvc member over another, i just dont think its fair that none members do get upgraded to one bedrooms.

 

[Brian Noble]

In the grand scheme of global injustices, worrying about a handful of cash guests who get upgraded instead of me just isn't high on my list.

 

[disneygrandma]

Every time one of these threads is started, it ends up the same way. Yes, as DVC members, we much prefer studio rooms over the Values. Yes, we would much prefer having a 2 bedroom DVC Villa than 2 rooms at even a Deluxe WDW Resort. Yes, we understand that as DVC members we've already prepaid for our future trips. However, we still have the annual maintenance fees to figure in. Yes, we understand that as DVC members, we're free to book the offers Disney is putting out there. BUT.......our money is already committed to Disney. This would mean paying them ADDITIONAL money. Many of us are not so fortunate as to have that extra money. (and please, don't bring up how we could rent the points) We hear from all the happy members who state that perks were never guaranteed. And from all those who have figured out the $ facts.

But there are many others, such as the OP, and my husband & I, who would like Disney to show us some appreciation. Do they have to? Probably not, as many have mentioned, Disney is a business. However, for the OP and our family, it would be nice if we could get a little something as a Thank you. A special fastpass for DVC members staying on points would be nice.

As others have mentioned, how about negotiating a discount on MYW tickets? We bought in to DVC for our family to use. However, not even the AP discount can be used for our grown children or our grandchildren. As grandparents, we want to use our DVC membership for trips with them. We can't always go twice in 1 yr to make the AP worthwhile even for us. Yes, discounts are offered for special ticketed events (parties).......but not for every day.

What we're talking about here is a feeling. We love Disney. We love our DVC rooms. But........we don't feel so great when we're at the pool at SSR and see how crowded it is AND then overhear all the people talking about how they received their 1 bedroom when they had booked, and paid for, a value room at POP. OR when we're waiting outside a TS restaurant that we're paying OOP for and overhear everyone around us talking about how they've received free dining. (yes, I've heard the no such thing as free speech)

As someone trained in customer service, I know how an unhappy customer can effect a business. Disney is a business. Many of us DVC members are not happy that perks (which we know were never guaranteed) are taken away. (For those owners at BWV, I feel for you! That has the worst parking ever!) Most businesses, even Disney, will give their customers discounts & special offers to not only bring them thru the doors.....but to keep them coming back. The OP, myself & many others, feel that Disney already has our money, and no longer cares about how we feel. Yes, the free internet is good..........but doesn't effect my husband or myself. We're happy for those of you who use it.

We don't want to pay higher dues for discounts we as members receive. We would like Disney to want to give us some discounts (dining, shopping, tickets, etc) to encourage us to feel better about our situation. Maybe we'll eat less in the room then? Maybe we'll do more shopping. Maybe we'll tell everyone just how great DVC really is. But for those members who are feeling left out &/or not appreciated.......that probably won't happen. Again, DVC fastpasses would go a great way in making us FEEL better, without costing them money.

What it comes down to is this is how we feel, and not something that can be dismissed by jotting down a purchase price, etc on a piece of paper. We love Disney, we love DVC, but we're feeling under-appreciated and not very happy. Please try to understand that many DVC members feel this way, and don't attack the OP or any other members for this.

Thank you.

 

[tjkraz]

i never said they should pick one dvc member over another, i just dont think its fair that none members do get upgraded to one bedrooms.

Well, they don't have enough vacant one bedrooms to upgrade everyone so they certainly would have to pick one member over another. As nice as it would be to get upgraded, I think it creates more problems than it solves. It just isn't fair to have 100 guests pay 15 points per night for a Studio and 5 guests pay 15 points per night for a One Bedroom (via free upgrade.)

But there are many others, such as the OP, and my husband & I, who would like Disney to show us some appreciation. Do they have to? Probably not, as many have mentioned, Disney is a business. However, for the OP and our family, it would be nice if we could get a little something as a Thank you.

But we DO get perks. We get discounts on Annual Passes, certain restaurants, tours, hard-ticketed events, boat rentals, Photopass CDs, shopping, Internet service and on, and on, and on.

If I were to put a label on these threads it would probably be "enough is never enough." No matter how many perks DVC members receive there will always be someone saying "yeah, but what about ____."

If you spend your time listening to people talk about their "free dining", $750 gift cards, 40% off room rates, etc., you will never be happy. And you're not getting the full picture either. Sorry but when someone is paying $450 per night for a room at the BoardWalk Inn, I don't consider "free dining" to be such a great bonus.

 

[Brian Noble]

The OP, myself & many others, feel that Disney already has our money, and no longer cares about how we feel.

But that is precisely the deal. Disney markets hard to get you to sign up for a lifetime of vacations. After that, you are already "sold". Disney must market to the cash guest each and every year. The resulting differences should be obvious.

As I wrote above, though, that doesn't mean the cash guest gets the better deal, and the Member gets the worse one. On average, you're getting the better deal. It "feels like" the cash guest is doing better, because of all these "discounts"---but the discounts are off of rack rates that are (to put it charitably) exhorbitant. So, it might feel like you're getting the short end of the stick. But, if you sit down and really work it out, you're not---not by a longshot.

What it comes down to is this is how we feel, and not something that can be dismissed by jotting down a purchase price, etc on a piece of paper.

I get this. But what this really says is that Disney's marketing is effective. They are creating a sense of value by "discounting", and you are feeling left out of that. But, if you really compare apples to apples, a "discounted" cash reservation vs. a DVC reservation, the "discount" really isn't much of a value in most cases.

As a concrete example, consider the Dining Plan. I am convinced that most guests, left to their own devices, wouldn't quite eat one table service meal per day. Sure, a few do, but *most* do not. Indeed, I'd bet my last Mickeybar that *most* guests who just eat what, where, and when they want spend less than the dining plan costs. Again, there are exceptions, but I think they are exceptions rather than the rule. Yet, you'll hear over and over how much the plan "saves"---sure, it saves compared to the menu price of what you order while you are on the plan, but that's NOT what you would have ordered or where you would have eaten if you weren't on the plan. So, while the plan appears to be a discount opportunity, I suspect that on average it's actually an upsell program in disguise. We see several posts on the dining boards every single day that say "I have two credits left that I need to use, where should I eat?"

In fact, even when I actually hit one TS meal per night, I still end up spending less than the Plan costs in aggregate, because many of my meals are less expensive for one reason or another. I recall one light lunch for the two of us at Brown Derby that came to $60. It was excellent, but certainly would not have been worth four TS credits.

Now, it's true that this year, you can find some deals where Disney's cash price is competitive with the true cost of booking as a Member. But, this year and last---where they are giving 40% discounts during peak summer---are extraordinarily unusual. Most years, the discounts are much less generous, and the member is coming out even more to the good.

 

[Dean]

What it comes down to is this is how we feel, and not something that can be dismissed by jotting down a purchase price, etc on a piece of paper. We love Disney, we love DVC, but we're feeling under-appreciated and not very happy. Please try to understand that many DVC members feel this way, and don't attack the OP or any other members for this.

No attack, however, I think this is exactly the point many of us are trying to make. It shouldn't be an emotional decision but a rational one. No one can control how another feels, all they can control are the X & O's and be fair and honest. They should not be in the position of having to compete for our emotion beyond being fair and appropriate in the management of DVC. OTOH, I do believe DVC has left a lot on the table in terms of not securing discounts/perks that they could have. when I go to a Marriott I generally get a far more extensive list of discounts than with DVC, even in the same area like HH.

 

[PBB]

let me say, I appreciate and agree with the OP of this thread. I feel that DVC members are more than likely some of Disney's top enthusiasts and guests. Anyone who would commit 40 to 50 years of vacationing and loyalty would have to appreciate the company and the resort.

To me Disney has gradually downgraded services and events all over the parks and resorts over the years. A columnist on another disney fan site is great about documenting such downgrades and closures.

I started another thread about perks disappearing before I read this thread and this is very similar.

An example of making me feel like a 2nd class citizen. My wife and I were thinking about going on a Disney Cruise for our 25th anniversary in November. I called member services about getting some information. I did not realize that you could use points for 1 passenger and pay cash for the 2nd passenger. The MS agent told me that if I booked the cruise and I chose to pay for the 2nd passenger with cash then I would have to pay up front. I went to DCL and all the cruise ship required was a deposit and you could pay it over time until a certain point before the cruise. That made me feel line a 2nd class citizen the pricing for each passenger was relatively the same. They trust the general public to pay over time but a DVC member they want the money up front.

I don't understand why they don't offer us discounts on MYW tickets or have a special DVC annual or seasonal pass at a discount. Heck, if they gave us Florida Resident pass rates don't you think everyone would be talking about how great DVC is ? Great room rates plus we get a discount on tickets.....You would not need all the booths and sales agents trying to sell this product it would sell naturally;.

Do I see myself on a different level than a Florida Resident ? Maybe, I invested money into Disney and DVC. I am paying taxes on property in FL (I know by the agreement we cant use it for FL Resident tickets) I am paying a tourist sales tax as well on things I purchase there. I have told Disney that I am going to be a loyal customer for Life Yet, Disney gives a discount just because they live in the State of Florida.

Another good example is I used to fly around the country every week for years. After 9/11 the airplanes were practically empty. Company policies state I have to fly coach. I am a gold medallion member. Does the airline say First Class is empty let me upgrade you to first class ? No Would it have bred customer loyalty for no extra expense ? Absolutely.........

Disney is making a mistake treating their best customers as captive customers. It is similar to a marriage you have to show your spouse you love them to keep them.

 

[Chuck S]

The MS agent told me that if I booked the cruise and I chose to pay for the 2nd passenger with cash then I would have to pay up front. I went to DCL and all the cruise ship required was a deposit and you could pay it over time until a certain point before the cruise. That made me feel line a 2nd class citizen the pricing for each passenger was relatively the same. They trust the general public to pay over time but a DVC member they want the money up front.

Of course you need to pay immediately. The contract isn't between you and the cruise line, it is between DVC and the cruise line, and that contract likely calls for DVC to pay any cash portions upfront. Why should DVC then lose $ by paying upfront and waiting for you to pay...that cost and additional accounting/bookkeeping would be paid by all members through additional dues.

I don't understand why they don't offer us discounts on MYW tickets or have a special DVC annual or seasonal pass at a discount. Heck, if they gave us Florida Resident pass rates don't you think everyone would be talking about how great DVC is ? Great room rates plus we get a discount on tickets.....You would not need all the booths and sales agents trying to sell this product it would sell naturally;.

We DO get special rates on APs and PAPs. We used to get 10% of Length of Stay passes...people weren't satisfied and wanted more...they always want more. In fact, our DVC AP price is only $20 more than a FL resident AP.

Do I see myself on a different level than a Florida Resident ? Maybe, I invested money into Disney and DVC. I am paying taxes on property in FL (I know by the agreement we cant use it for FL Resident tickets) I am paying a tourist sales tax as well on things I purchase there. I have told Disney that I am going to be a loyal customer for Life Yet, Disney gives a discount just because they live in the State of Florida.

There is no "tourist sales tax," you pay the same sales tax as Fl residents pay. Sales tax is sales tax. Nor did you "invest" in Disney, those people are called stockholders, and they receive no discounts or perks whatsoever. We do not pay room occupancy (hotel) taxes...we own the property.

Another good example is I used to fly around the country every week for years. After 9/11 the airplanes were practically empty. Company policies state I have to fly coach. I am a gold medallion member. Does the airline say First Class is empty let me upgrade you to first class ? No Would it have bred customer loyalty for no extra expense ? Absolutely.........

Disney is making a mistake treating their best customers as captive customers. It is similar to a marriage you have to show your spouse you love them to keep them.

It is doubtful that on a per room night basis, we DVCers are "their best customers," we likely spend more as individuals over the course of our membership, but there is no way we spend the same amount per week of stay as a cash guest, even with discounts.

 

[Dean]

let me say, I appreciate and agree with the OP of this thread. I feel that DVC members are more than likely some of Disney's top enthusiasts and guests. Anyone who would commit 40 to 50 years of vacationing and loyalty would have to appreciate the company and the resort.

To me Disney has gradually downgraded services and events all over the parks and resorts over the years. A columnist on another disney fan site is great about documenting such downgrades and closures.

I started another thread about perks disappearing before I read this thread and this is very similar.

An example of making me feel like a 2nd class citizen. My wife and I were thinking about going on a Disney Cruise for our 25th anniversary in November. I called member services about getting some information. I did not realize that you could use points for 1 passenger and pay cash for the 2nd passenger. The MS agent told me that if I booked the cruise and I chose to pay for the 2nd passenger with cash then I would have to pay up front. I went to DCL and all the cruise ship required was a deposit and you could pay it over time until a certain point before the cruise. That made me feel line a 2nd class citizen the pricing for each passenger was relatively the same. They trust the general public to pay over time but a DVC member they want the money up front.

I don't understand why they don't offer us discounts on MYW tickets or have a special DVC annual or seasonal pass at a discount. Heck, if they gave us Florida Resident pass rates don't you think everyone would be talking about how great DVC is ? Great room rates plus we get a discount on tickets.....You would not need all the booths and sales agents trying to sell this product it would sell naturally;.

Do I see myself on a different level than a Florida Resident ? Maybe, I invested money into Disney and DVC. I am paying taxes on property in FL (I know by the agreement we cant use it for FL Resident tickets) I am paying a tourist sales tax as well on things I purchase there. I have told Disney that I am going to be a loyal customer for Life Yet, Disney gives a discount just because they live in the State of Florida.

Another good example is I used to fly around the country every week for years. After 9/11 the airplanes were practically empty. Company policies state I have to fly coach. I am a gold medallion member. Does the airline say First Class is empty let me upgrade you to first class ? No Would it have bred customer loyalty for no extra expense ? Absolutely.........

Disney is making a mistake treating their best customers as captive customers. It is similar to a marriage you have to show your spouse you love them to keep them.

I think the key point is that this is a business decision. They don't do this as a reward but with the expectation of they will get more income in the long run. They will put the same thinking to work if giving extra benefits to DVC members. They will not consider what they have already but what they will get. And while DVC members may be some of their most steady customers, they likely do not spend as much per trip as many others. Plus Disney is only going to consider what DVC members would spend extra due to the benefit, not what they spend overall.