Why do I feel like a 2nd class citizen?

[yitbos96bb]

There is absolutely no doubt that the AP discount is a great perk offered by DVC.

That said, I think there should be some modification...
A family of six that has 25 points should not get the same benefit as a family of two that own 1400..

The later statement is just my opinion.

MG

Well I'll give you the 25, but you are going down a dangerous slope if you do it that way. Most people on DVC are going to have between 150 and 400 points.. are they less deserving of a perk than the 1400 point person. now when purchasing, i have no issues with bigger point purchases getting better incentives.

 

[yitbos96bb]

I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Or perhaps right. No matter how I attempt to manipulate the Disney Discounts they still come up short compared to my DVC. I even called a reservation sales agent/travel agent to see what kind of a deal I could negotiate with my AP rates. It still comes up short to the DVC. Perhaps, because our ownership was paid off about ten years ago and our only cost for rooms is the MF we may be at more of an advantage than other folks in enjoying the fiscal benefits of DVC ownership. As far as the perks, it seems that over the years the perks lost were, for the most part, perks we did not use. On the other side of the perks coin those that have been added have been those that we do indeed use and benefit from. Perhaps it is all relative to your travel patterns, and where and when you stay. I do miss the "free" fishing excursions on Bay Lake perk.

DDP, free or otherwise, is kind of an oxymoron for us. From a fiscal point of view the "free" isn't really free since it is based on the purchase of a vacation package at the rack rate. Using our TIW and DVC accommodations we still manage to come out ahead in comparison to the Vacation Package discounts. In spite of all the wonderful restaurants that are DDP participants we are disappointed that some of our favorites, specifically in DTD, are not DDP participants. We also find DDP to be a ball and chain that compels us to stay on-site to spend our vacation dollars. Perhaps it is great for the occasional or first time visitor but it is rather stifling for those that want to use their DVC as a home-base while they venture out to Kissimmee, Orlando, or, dare I say, Universal Studios. We have no complaints about DVC other than wishing we had known about it years earlier. We are still getting our bang for the buck. For us it not only continues to have that "special" feel. It seems to improve at each visit.

I concur on DDP... It was a much better value when the tip and app was included. Even with the app and no tip is was still good. Not only does it chain you, it also forces you to get the more expensive dishes even if they aren't your first choice, if you want to maximize value. I like TIW... sometimes its not a better value, sometimes it is, but that "gamble" is worth the freedom to me... and hey the tip is covered.

 

[dmoore22]

I used to pay close to $600 (maintenance fees) for a 5 night stay in 1 bedroom. Now with the new improved point schedule, we get 4 nights for $600. Not to rehash the point increase because I understand why they raised them, but my maint fees just went from $120 a night to $150 a night.

This aroused my curiosity. I never thought to break down my MF in terms of a per night stay. Using that calculation it is costing us $80.96 per night to stay at our home resort. If I subtract the property tax, which becomes a deduction since we itemize, the cost is then $65.49 per night at our home resort.

I concur on DDP... It was a much better value when the tip and app was included. Even with the app and no tip is was still good. Not only does it chain you, it also forces you to get the more expensive dishes even if they aren't your first choice, if you want to maximize value. I like TIW... sometimes its not a better value, sometimes it is, but that "gamble" is worth the freedom to me... and hey the tip is covered.

Value is another relative term. If its cheap, and you don't want or need it, is it really a bargain? Does it have value (rhetorical question)? We prefer TIW because we can eat what we want, when we want, and where we want. And, of course, we find the best, and most important value is in the discounts!!

 

[Muushka]

This aroused my curiosity. I never thought to break down my MF in terms of a per night stay. Using that calculation it is costing us $80.96 per night to stay at our home resort. If I subtract the property tax, which becomes a deduction since we itemize, the cost is then $65.49 per night at our home resort.



Value is another relative term. If its cheap, and you don't want or need it, is it really a bargain? Does it have value (rhetorical question)? We prefer TIW because we can eat what we want, when we want, and where we want. And, of course, we find the best, and most important value is in the discounts!!

It is a deduction, meaning that you can't subtract total amount on the property from the price per night, it just gets deducted from your income. Not sure if you took that into account.

It is more like a fifth or so of the property tax paid depending on your tax rate. Also not sure if I stated it so that it is understood! We can't do the long form so the deduction does not help us.

 

[Grumpygrandpa]

Just a thought;do you have a special relationship with your guide? In all our years we have never had a call whilst in WDW.

Our guide calls every time we visit WDW.

 

[dmoore22]

It is a deduction, meaning that you can't subtract total amount on the property from the price per night,

The total, ie. total annual dues - total property taxes = MF$ to Disney, was divided by the total number of nights we stay at our home resort per year to obtain the per night cost without taxes. The total annual dues, including the property tax line item, were divided by the total number of nights per year we stay at our home resort to obtain the per night cost of our accomodations. When quoting rack rate prices Disney usually adds the disclaimer, "taxes not included." That is because WDW overlaps Osceola County and Orange County which have different tax rates. It's a little cheaper to get your souvenirs in the Orange County section of WDW because of this. Approximately 19% of the MF goes to Florida property taxes.

it just gets deducted from your income. Not sure if you took that into account.

Instead of a debit/liability/expense against our income it becomes an asset in the form of an income tax refund. For the purposes of accounting we budget that amount back into our vacation fund.

It is more like a fifth or so of the property tax paid depending on your tax rate. Also not sure if I stated it so that it is understood! We can't do the long form so the deduction does not help us.

Can't help you on that one. All I can say is try the long form, it can be your friend!

If I use my AP room only discount at a Value Resort for our next trip coming in May/June it will cost us $79/night from May 30 - June 3, $144/night from June 4 -5, and $129/night from June 6 - 10 which totals $1,636 for 12 nights. Our stay at OKW will be $971.52 for the same period using the MF per night formula. Of course its really not fair to compare OKW to a Value Resort. If we would book at a moderate, such as Coronado Springs it would cost us $2,604 with the AP discount vs. $971.52 for the same time period at OKW. In both scenarios I've included taxes. DVC has been good for us, and to us, so far. We definitely do not feel like second class citizens.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

No... Annual fees will never be higher than the equivalent cost of the room you are staying in; percentage increase you could make that arguement but my statement is based on actual dollar cost not percent of increase. And besides, I was comparing room costs not maintenance fees... So the cost of buying DVC points sans annual fees vs the escalating cost of the equivalent room.

I can go to Disney cheaper than DVC, but I can't get as nice a room as I can through DVC.

On an airplane so I'll comment further later on.

But couldn't you say that about anything? If you index it for inflation, many prices will never increase.

MG

 

[Grumpygrandpa]

I am still very happy with my DVC points. IMHO the only way I can lose out is if the parks go out of business and close down....so it benefits us all when Disney makes sure that the parks are going to survive this economic downturn by advertising significant discounts and free dining to generate people coming to Disney. Just remember a vibrant healthy Disney is a benefit to our "investment".

 

[dmoore22]

I am still very happy with my DVC points. IMHO the only way I can lose out is if the parks go out of business and close down....so it benefits us all when Disney makes sure that the parks are going to survive this economic downturn by advertising significant discounts and free dining to generate people coming to Disney. Just remember a vibrant healthy Disney is a benefit to our "investment".

 

[jlewisinsyr]

True, but not practical for many Members.
What do you suggest we do with our points if we continued to reserve cash deals?

Again, the cash discounts don't bother me personally. I'm just stating the facts.

MG

It may not be pratical, but the point was that the option was still there, there is nothing Disney does to prevent a DVC member from taking advantage of a CRO discount. Everyone has the option, whether economical or not.

 

[dmoore22]

Over the life of your DVC contract the largest expense by far will be annual dues. They will indeed go up, sometimes faster than a hotel room.

MG

Think so? You should go shopping with my DW when she stops in EVERY shop at Epcot, multiple times! And she never leaves empty handed! Compared to that the MFs are a bargain.



PS: If anyone reports to my DW that I said this I'll be forced to deny it.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

It may not be pratical, but the point was that the option was still there, there is nothing Disney does to prevent a DVC member from taking advantage of a CRO discount. Everyone has the option, whether economical or not.

Well.... If I had that kind of money to throw away, I wouldn't be worried about missing out on the discount!

MG

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Think so? You should go shopping with my DW when she stops in EVERY shop at Epcot, multiple times! And she never leaves empty handed! Compared to that the MFs are a bargain.



PS: If anyone reports to my DW that I said this I'll be forced to deny it.

MG

 

[Muushka]

The total, ie. total annual dues - total property taxes = MF$ to Disney, was divided by the total number of nights we stay at our home resort per year to obtain the per night cost without taxes. The total annual dues, including the property tax line item, were divided by the total number of nights per year we stay at our home resort to obtain the per night cost of our accomodations. When quoting rack rate prices Disney usually adds the disclaimer, "taxes not included." That is because WDW overlaps Osceola County and Orange County which have different tax rates. It's a little cheaper to get your souvenirs in the Orange County section of WDW because of this. Approximately 19% of the MF goes to Florida property taxes.



Instead of a debit/liability/expense against our income it becomes an asset in the form of an income tax refund. For the purposes of accounting we budget that amount back into our vacation fund.



Can't help you on that one. All I can say is try the long form, it can be your friend!

If I use my AP room only discount at a Value Resort for our next trip coming in May/June it will cost us $79/night from May 30 - June 3, $144/night from June 4 -5, and $129/night from June 6 - 10 which totals $1,636 for 12 nights. Our stay at OKW will be $971.52 for the same period using the MF per night formula. Of course its really not fair to compare OKW to a Value Resort. If we would book at a moderate, such as Coronado Springs it would cost us $2,604 with the AP discount vs. $971.52 for the same time period at OKW. In both scenarios I've included taxes. DVC has been good for us, and to us, so far. We definitely do not feel like second class citizens.

Whoa, way over my tiny tax-limited brain! I thought you were just taking the amount you pay in taxes on the MF and thinking that rather than being a deduction you just got the whole amount off of your taxes. You obviously know what you are doing!

As far as the long form, it used to be our friend but we don't have enough deductions to do it these days.

 

[dmoore22]

Whoa, way over my tiny tax-limited brain! I thought you were just taking the amount you pay in taxes on the MF and thinking that rather than being a deduction you just got the whole amount off of your taxes. You obviously know what you are doing!

Don't give me too much credit. I had an uncle that was a tax consultant and a friend that's an accountant that did a little indoctrination on me when I was younger.

A lot of it has to to with manipulation (legally of course), some rationalization, and timing. Years ago, before DVC existed, we invested what was to be our retirement savings in shares of Disney and Pixar plus some tech stocks and mutual funds among others. Of course we live our lives as if we don't have this nest egg to fall back on. When we found out about DVC we debated the pros/cons and what kinds of things we would like to do when we retire. In the meantime our shares in Disney appreciated, split, appreciated, split, appreciated, and split again. Finally the stars were in alignment and we found a DVC resale at a very nice price that included a years worth of banked points (MF already paid on banked points) and an add-on in which the seller paid the first year's MF. We sold some of our Disney shares to pay for the points. Even with selling the shares the value of our Disney stock was still more than our initial investment. However, since we sold the shares at an appreciated value we would have to claim capital gains. Since we saw the dot-com bubble had sprung a leak we moved some of our poorly performing tech positions into cash thus creating a capital loss that more than offset the capital gains thus creating a refund on our income taxes. Here comes the rationalization: Since the money spent to purchase into DVC was not money we earned the old fashioned way (blood, sweat & tears) and the portfolio value, after the stock sale/DVC purchase, maintained a positive capital gain, we considered our DVC purchase a freebie since the value is only on paper anyway. Hence our only cost for accommodations has been the MF without having to further touch our retirement savings/investments. We could also consider the cost to actually be less than the MFs we have paid over the years since we started off with a full year in which we did not have to pay the MF.

 

[staceymay00]

We are hoping to be members soon - waiting on ROFR - so I can't comment on how DVC members have been treated by WDW over the years, but I would not feel slighted by discounts to the general public. They are doing it to fill vacant rooms, not to slight DVC members or long time visitors who have had to pay rack rate in the past. As a WDW stockholder I would prefer WDW get some revenue from the rooms than nothing. It doesn't really make good business sense to offer free dining to people who have already committed to regular Disney vacations.

We are staying at the Polynesian the week after Easter with a great AP rate. It still is not cheap...about $2250 for seven nights in a garden view standard room. I did a very simple comparison to see how the same week in an OKW 1 BR would stack up to our Poly discount.

Let's say I buy 300 points to stay in a 1 BR at OKW for Easter week every year, the most expensive point season. I know, the location is not on the monorail next to MK but I am getting a kitchen, w/d and more space. So I buy 300 pts for $70 each and get to use them for 30 years. That is $700 a year. MFs are another $1500 or so a year, about equaling my Polynesian rate of $2250. It is pretty unusual to get a 45% discount over Easter, right? I can't imagine getting that year after year. I know I have ignored inflation of the MFs (but room rates will go up, too) and opportunity cost of the initial purchase money. And obviously financing BLT might not work out as favorably, but then again you get 50 years of points.

In any case I feel like by buying DVC we are pre-purchasing our lodging at a nice discount every year, not just when the economy is poor. And we get larger accommodations with a kitchen and w/d in the unit. "Luckily" we can only afford 150 pts right now so we will have the option of extra cash trips or a split stay paying cash for a portion if there are great general public discounts to be had.

 

[ssawka]

If you want to know how much you are paying for each trip, do the following:

1. Take your initial purchase price.
2. Add in the total amount of interest you will pay over the course of your loan (if you finance)
3. Determine the total amount of MFs you'll pay over the course of the contract. (assume a 3% increase per year)
4. Sum up #1, #2, and #3
5. Determine the total # of points you'll be given over the contract (Number of Points * 50)
6. Divide #4 by #5, that gives you your cost per point
7. Multiply #6 by the number of points you are using for your stay.

This dosen't really account for the time value of money, but it is close enough.

I will provide a Excel spreadsheet when I have time to upload it (can't do it from work)

 

[lark]

I tend to look at the value of a cro discount by asking what the rental value of points for an equivalent DVC stay would be.

We have an upcoming stay this summer for 225 points at BLT. At the current 40 percent discount through CRO, the same stay would cost $1957 with tax. That's kind of a bummer -- it only comes out to $8.70 per point. (I would lose access to the TOTW lounge, though, but would gain daily housekeeping.) My dues on these points are about $900, so essentially for this vacation, having purchased DVC "saves" me about $1050. It's going to take a lot of years of going at that kind of savings to justify my purchase price.

But, whatever. Some years there won't be 40 percent discounts and the savings will be higher. Just the way it goes. Plus, I'm not guaranteed that CRO would even have the room category I want (I haven't checked), which I was able to get right at 11 months with no fuss. So, that's worth something.

Just for kicks, I checked prices yesterday on deluxe concierge accomodations with the 35 percent discount, because I'd sort of like to try one of those. Assuming I could rent my points for $10.50 to $11 per point, the cash from that rental would allow me an equivalent stay at the discounted rate at the atrium club/mk view in the contemporary or the poly. I'm actually thinking about doing that -- just renting out my points and using the cash. If I do that, the value of my DVC membership turns out to be higher. I'd end up having spent $900 (in dues) for a $2500 accomodation, or a "savings" of $1600. Ultimately, I don't think I would give up the extra bedroom, but I think this illustrates that, at least if you're willing to rent points and thus convert your points to cash, there's nothing that keeps us DVC members from taking advantage of the discounts too.

 

[dmoore22]

Assuming I could rent my points for $10.50 to $11 per point . . .

You know what they say about "assume." There are too many variables that are unique to each DVC owners' situation to develop an absolute criteria to compare the costs of a CRO discount to a DVC member points stay. Because of our unique situation the current CRO discount options are not a bargain for us. We would be in the red using them for comparable DVC accommodations/park passes/dining options. DVC keeps us in the black. I can certainly see how it could be the opposite for other DVC owners that are not in our situation. If we were in the latter group we would probably be questioning the value of continued ownership in DVC and trying to see what we could do to make it a win/win situation or get out.

 

[going/again]

No... Annual fees will never be higher than the equivalent cost of the room you are staying in; percentage increase you could make that arguement but my statement is based on actual dollar cost not percent of increase. And besides, I was comparing room costs not maintenance fees... So the cost of buying DVC points sans annual fees vs the escalating cost of the equivalent room.

I can go to Disney cheaper than DVC, but I can't get as nice a room as I can through DVC.

what about when someone gets upgraded from a value to a dvc resort its nearly always a 1 bedroom, if your staying in a studio thats a better room. yet no dvc member would get that upgrade.