Why are toddlers second-class citizens on DCL??

[Amberle3]

Just wanted to add $.02 to the 18yo pile...

Let's not forget that there are folks from countries other than the US that go on Disney cruises. Up here in Canada for most provinces the legal drinking age is 18. Our 18 year olds for the most part would not feel uncomfortable our out of place in a nightclub.

And how would the logistics of allowing some 18yo and not others into the teen clubs work? Do you tell one that he can use it because he's in HS, but another that he can't because he's in college? Do you tell the Canadian 18yo who's in HS that he can't go to the adult clubs? What about the person who's just barely turned 19? Or 20? Or 21?

Don't get me wrong, I understand that some 18yo are more comfortable socializing with younger children. But the question becomes where do you draw the line? With a business that deals with thousands of people each sailing there have to be clear-cut guidelines in place. The fact is that at 18 an individual is legally considered to be an adult. Allowing 18 year olds free access to the teen clubs would probably stir up legal trouble for Disney should something untoward happen, because they provided the means and the opportunity.

Personally I don't think that it's unfair that an 18 year old is treated like an adult - they are adults. They can drive, they can vote. They can find employment, move out and be self-sufficient. If the only difference is that they can't drink in the US, well that's not a major difference to me. The US is apparently the only country with a drinking age of 21. According to the information I found 40+ countries have a drinking age of 18, more than 20 are lower than 18 and only 4 are at ages 19 or 20. The US has the highest minimum drinking age in the world.

No, the current solution doesn't fit everyone. Just like there are very mature 17 year olds that aren't comfortable in the teen club but aren't allowed in the adult clubs. But the line has been drawn to accommodate the majority of passengers and to best fit within legal guidelines.

 

[MiaSRN62]

They did not have to drink onboard to have a good time.

I understand this. My son wouldn't feel this way either, but he does like to hang with kids his own age. So if the adult bars had other 18 year olds (particularily those still in HS) that he could relate to, I'm sure he'd have fun. I'm just not sure that's what you get, on average, in the adult clubs. My dh and I went 2 nights on the Wonder to the clubs after hours. We saw noone there in the 18-20 age bracket. Mostly couples actually is what we encountered. We had a great time, just not sure my high school aged son would if no other 18 year olds were there.
I am also aware of drinking on the islands. He, so far, seems to have very little interest in this anyway. His idea of a good drink is a banana smoothie ! lol

 

[MiaSRN62]

Personally I don't think that it's unfair that an 18 year old is treated like an adult - they are adults. They can drive, they can vote. They can find employment, move out and be self-sufficient.

Well, you see it more cut and dry than I do and this is ok. It's your opinon. Still, I repeatedly suggested some sort of activities (dance/excursion etc) for the 18-20 year old crowd a couple times during the week. This would make everyone happy. Then parents of 14 year olds wouldn't feel like an 18 year old HS student was taking advantage of their dd or whatever and since this age group can't drink they all wouldn't feel out of place in an adult nightclub (well at least some wouldn't). I think once my ds graduates HS, he'll feel a little more acclimated to the adult scene as opposed to being 18 and in HS and going to the adult spots. Sure there has to be a place to draw the line.....and I guess the majority here feels a HS student should be perfectly content to hang with a much older age group (20's, 30's 40's etc in the clubs) simply based on the fact that they are legally an adult. But in HS, he's accustomed to hanging with other HS students not 30 year olds.

 

[ClarabelleCow]

Maria - just curious, have you asked your son what he thinks?

 

[Karel]

Originally posted by MiaSRN62
Sure there has to be a place to draw the line.....and I guess the majority here feels a HS student should be perfectly content to hang with a much older age group (20's, 30's 40's etc in the clubs) simply based on the fact that they are legally an adult. But in HS, he's accustomed to hanging with other HS students not 30 year olds.

What he needs to do is find kids his age going on your cruise and email them ahead of time. You're assuming he's not going to find a group of people his age. Just because nothing is officially planned doesn't mean that there won't be a group that age going to the clubs, swimming, playing basketball etc. Or see if a friend can go with you.

I took at quick look at the Carnival and Royal Caribbean sites. The teen group on RCCL also stops at 17. The Carnival site listed the kids camp only to age 15. I didn't look deeper to see if there were older teen activities.

You've made good points but you need to write to Disney and make your suggestions. Who knows - they may listen.

 

[mickeymo]

on the 3/13 Magic cruise, we met a family traveling with the 18 year old son who "aged down" because as a frequent Disney cruiser he enjoyed the teen activities. I don't know if he was still in h.s. - but, IMO if they are willing to take the younger kids aging up or aging down for lab/club activities for a trial period, then there should be room for negotiation with an 18 year old h.s. student. It wouldn't hurt to explain the situation to the counselors once on board.

 

[MiaSRN62]

Thanks Karel and Mickeymo for the comments/suggestions.

To answer your question Clarabelle, yes, I did bring this all up with him. It's the whole reason I booked the cruise when I did. He told my dh and I that he would rather stay home (with grandmom) if he couldn't join in on the teen club activities. I think he had such a positive experience with Common Grounds in '02 that he wanted to know that was available to him again especially since this cruise will be 7 nights vs our last one which was 4 nights. I think every parent really knows their older teen best. Mine (and I'm sure there are others like him, just as there are probably exact opposities of him) loves to hang with his friends in all his downtime. They play sports or video games etc. His friendships are extremely important in his life----he doesn't like to be alone---gets bored easily. If he can't "hang" with his friends for one reason or another, he'll be on the phone with them. He was voted junior class VP this year and president in 10th grade. Heck, he was even voted team leader of the teen club in '02.
I constantly either have kids over my house or my ds is over one of his friends houses. So I don't think he'd have as good a time going into an adult nightclub on the ship and trying to seek out kids his ages (as I mentioned, my dh and I never saw any older teens in them the two times we went). In the teen club, counselors are there and everything is at his disposal. The itinerary is kept full so there's always something for the teens to do. This is the sort of structure he enjoys right now. This may change when he graduates HS---time will tell. Heck, he may not even want to vacation with us period once he gets to college. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it

 

[disneymom3]

Back to the OPs comment. I totally agree with you. That was the main comment we had on our cruise. I know it's practically sacriledge to say it on here, but we couldn't figure out why people would spend so much on a Disney cruise when the other lines do the kids clubs just as well. The one way that DCL could choose to differentiate themselves, they have chosen to ignore. That two to three year old crowd is severely lacking for things to do!! Flounders is totally boring when you are used to hanging out with your three year old brother. Thankfully our two year old is potty trained so that was not a concern in the pools, but he was way too young to graduate up.

For the posters who think you should just wait to go until the kids can participate, I suppose that's an option, but WHY would Disney want you to? Have they forgotten that those little two to three year olds have older siblings??

For me, this is not a personal thing. My kids spent almost all of their time with us anyway and that is how we like to do a family vacation. (Actually, if my boys could have been together in the club, they probably would have spent more time there. Big sis was not with us as much.) However, it does seem like a silly choice for Disney to not provide for that age group.

 

[moinab]

Getting back to the OP's topic, I'm not sure if you are aware that your child is free to use the Oceaneer Club facilities, you just have to stay with him/her if he/she is not potty trained. My DS was 6 weeks shy of his 3rd birthday (and still in diapers) on our cruise last summer. I brought him to the club to play, and he had a fantastic time.

We had a great time on our cruise with our toddler and 5 month old DD. We put both children in Flounder's once, but we really preferred to spend all of our time with our children.

HTH

 

[MiaSRN62]

Getting back to the OP's topic

well, I can take a hint
BUT, I do feel the correlation between problems with toddler activities and older teen activities can relate and it's why I brought it up. I could totally sympathize with how the OP feels.
I'm off this thread now......thanks to those of you that listened.

 

[disneymom3]

I agree with you Mia. Didn't mean to sound as though I was reprimanding you! (You didn't quote me, but I had said basically the same thing.) However, I only have experience with the toddler end of things at this point.

 

[hydster]

Mia I TOTALLY understand where you are coming from and see it from your perspective! I don't have a teen yet but I feel the same way you do when they do get to that age! Being 18 on a Disney ship is kind of like me and my tween at Christmas time. The toys out there were too "babyish" (like Barbie and Bratz) for my dd and the older stuff was too old (like cd's, movies, makeup) and I was torn as to what to buy for her. It stinks to have your child in those years where they are too old but too young and no one seems to want to help out! When I was 18 my parents took me on a Carnival cruise. I was too old for any of their kids club programs and really didn't want to participate in them, nor did I want to go on the bridge tour or the galley tour with my *gasp* parents. I ended up spending most of my days lying at the pool wishing at the very least I had been able to bring a friend along to share in the misery of being 18 and not much for someone my age to do. Now I had a great time being with my family and everything but my parents wouldn't allow me to drink or gamble (much) but I did gamble some. I think Disney and all cruise lines actually need to figure out something for the kids to do from 18-20 where it would be appropriate for them. I dont know that they would have to have something to fill the entire day every single day but having something for them to do would be helpful even if it was just for 3-4 hours at night or in the afternoon. I know when I was 18 I surely wouldn't have wanted to hang out with my parents every night and I actually didn't. I spent time in our cabin watching tv most nights along with my single 25 year old brother who had no spouse and nothing to do either, didn't gamble and didn't drink and didn't want to be caught hanging with mom and dad every night. We would go to dinner and the show and then back to the cabin. It seems to me that the cruise industry is doing a great disservice to kids from 18-20 who maybe DON'T party, don't drink and maybe their parents would rather that they didn't go to a comedy type club where they are exposed to certain ideas and things (not that they don't hear it at school or know about it) but on vacation parent's may not want their kids to have to deal with crude language, adult subject matter, alcohol or whatever. Would it be possible for you to maybe at least take a friend for your son so that he wouldn't be totally alone?? They could catch a movie, play some basketball or even play a little in the arcade. I realize it isnt a great solution but maybe it would help him at least have SOMETHING to do and SOMEONE his age to do it with.

As for the OP..I understand your position as well. It can be frustrating to say the least when your kids are at the wrong ages but everyone tells you to go because it is so family friendly!

You both have my empathy! I have no solution but I do understand!!! Hopefully something will come of this and Disney and other lines will try to figure out something for both age groups!

Heidi

 

[musicgirl]

Wow, hot thread!!!

Just my @ cents, so here goes.

Kids are all different. Not everything is for eveyone. When considering any vacation whether it is on land or sea, at a resort or whatever, you decide what is best for your family. If a certain vacation doesn't fit your family, chose something else.

My dh's side of the family did a week vacation at a beach in NC. He has 5 brothers and 1 sister. My dh hates sand, always has always will. The main activities the group did were golfing and hanging out at the beach.

He could golf. But the greens fees were sky high and all 3 of us like to golf.

There were lots of grandkids (all under 11). Lots of different income levels and likes and dislikes. They spent 90% of the time on the beach.

We were the only who didn't go. We went on a DCL cruise because it fit our family's need.

Many people mentioned having the young toddlers move up to the clubs. Remember, there are a number of people who have stated that their kids didn't like the clubs!! The clubs are not necessarily for all kids.

Do what is best for your family. Is there really any cruise that could suit an entire family with ages ranging from 2-18??


Just a thought or 2.

 

[hydster]

Is there really any cruise that could suit an entire family with ages ranging from 2-18??

Right now no way...but that isnt to say it couldn't be done. The cruise industry just hasn't understood yet that they need something for ALL ages to do that is age appropriate. They sell it as a family all inclusive fun trip but it really isnt ALL family all inclusive it's specific family all inclusive and that's where people are frustrated. I certainly think that if the cruise industry were to try to come up with something they could. It might cost them some extra millions but they could do it...they just don't. It hasnt been a big enough issue apparently for them to warrant changing it and yet as a parent I can totally see how it would be frustrating. For the kids 18 mos to 3 I cant see why they cant make an area for them to play in like they do for the other age groups on board...but parents have settled for it because that's the way it is. Even if they limited the amount of children per sailing for it and just had to move over X amount of counselors to accomplish it they do limit space for the kids club...I don't see how this could be much harder to do. For the 18-20 young adult set why couldnt they set apart a place on the ship, one of the clubs or something and have age appropriate things for them to do as well? Maybe for the 18-20 year olds it wouldn't have to be an all day all night thing but at least something. Have age appropriate comedy, music, dancing, movies, hanging out type place for them to go and hang with kids their own ages. Adults tend to forget (I know I'm one of them) how it is to be 18 and a "tween" again. Too young but too old. I certainly think if the cruise industry did a focus group of kids that age they would figure out something that these kids would like to do that wouldn't require much more work than is happening now. With kids that age I wouldnt think you would need as many counselors as you do with the younger set as they are old enough to use the potty and take care of themselves and are also adult enough to decide that they no longer wish to participate in said activity it is just the cruise industry is comfortable where they are and not willing to do much more in my OPINION!

Heidi

P.S. This whole thing wasn't directed at you musicgirl so I hope you dont get that idea..I just used your quote and then ran with it!* I understand your points!

 

[musicgirl]

No problem Heidi!

Lorie

 

[CACruiser]

It has to do with staffing ratios. The Flounders club has very limited spacing and is by appointment?

I checked into a lot of cruises before my youngest turned three. The potty training rule is the norm in all the major lines.

LisaCA

 

[Daisy5115]

We actually moved up our cruise to take advantage of the fact that my son wouldn't be three yet and his fare would be much lower. I know he won't be trained for a long time so why wait a year when who knows if we may still have issues? I don't mind sitting with him in the OC if he wants to play in there with his brother and the price of FLounders is a small one to pay if we want to do adult things a few nights. I'm thinking he willmostly be sleeping in there! We didn't do Disney World because my 6yr old is afraid of everything there! (well, dark and loud things, anyway) Why bother to force him on rides and loud shows when he can handle the cruise activies much better?
There are many reasons to cruise with Disney, I feel blessed to be able to!

 

[MiaSRN62]

It seems to me that the cruise industry is doing a great disservice to kids from 18-20 who maybe DON'T party, don't drink and maybe their parents would rather that they didn't go to a comedy type club where they are exposed to certain ideas and things (not that they don't hear it at school or know about it) but on vacation parent's may not want their kids to have to deal with crude language, adult subject matter, alcohol or whatever.

Thanks Heidi ! Just had to pop back in and let you know I appreciate the fact that you see where I'm coming from with this issue. Musicgirl suggested "if a certain vacation doesn't fit your family then choose something else". It's not that cut and dry. We shouldn't have to. We all love the DCL and I'm not going to deprive everyone else just because DCL doesn't have ways to entertain 18-20 year olds. The solution is not to simply give up cruising imo.
Thanks again Heidi---you expressed an 18 year old's (particularily one still in HS) perspective perfectly. Just had to jump in and say that Thanks to disneymom too !

 

[4kidsandadog]

When we took our first cruise on the Magic this past December, I had 3 kids who were of Oceaneer Club age... a 3yo, 5yo and 8yo. My 3yo was not pottytrained, but was wearing pull-ups. The first night, when his brother and sister were preparing to go to the club, he was heartbroken at not getting to go with them. I asked one of the counselors if there was any way he could stay with his siblings. I said that we would never leave the ship with him in the club and would be willing to come back every now and then to check on him if they'd like. He went to talk to Shea (the head of the Club/Lab) and she was very agreeable to this. We ended up being able to let him stay and play, while we would come back every hour and a half or so to see how he was doing. He did not spend a lot of time in the club that week, maybe 3 hours tops during the day (often broken up by lunch or something like that). He did spend time in the evenings, usually after dinner. We had late seating and he tended to fall asleep; we were able to take him into the club and they would make him a pallet to lie down on. I was very thankful for this; it was the only way we would have been able to see any of the late-night activities without dragging my older daughter (12) away from her friends and having her stay in the cabin with him.

Bottom line... we didn't let him not being potty-trained stop us from cruising. We went with the plan/understanding that he would be with us most of the time and that we would occasionally ask our daughter to sit with him. But it never hurts to ask.

Karen

 

[crisi]

It seems to me that the cruise industry is doing a great disservice to kids from 18-20 who maybe DON'T party, don't drink and maybe their parents would rather that they didn't go to a comedy type club where they are exposed to certain ideas and things (not that they don't hear it at school or know about it) but on vacation parent's may not want their kids to have to deal with crude language, adult subject matter, alcohol or whatever.

disservice - a harmful action. Harmful to whom? I think disservice is a pretty strong word. And great disservice is certainly too strong.

I completely agree that more COULD be done for 18-20s and toddlers. More could be done for 37 year old mothers of two like me. More could be done for singles and seniors. More could be done for little boys (there is a Princess greet, but where is Buzz?) More could be done for sports fans (the sports deck on DCL is pretty lame - and with ESPN replaced by the Stack on the Magic - they've decided to reduce service to that market). The "family" dance club doesn't start playing dance music until my kids have been asleep for an hour, more could be done there - and the early family shows back in Beat Street were overcrowded - couldn't find a place to sit - more could be done there.

But, other than "families with 18-20s and toddlers would appreciate the effort" WHY should they do it. Competatively, its a market most cruise lines seem to miss, so there isn't an overriding need to keep up with the competition - which wouldn't be a driving factor for Disney anyway. They have no need to expand their market to particularly appeal to these groups - their ships sail full, they get a ton of repeat business, their customer satisfaction is great.

18-20s are probably a particular hard market to cater to. How many 18-20s are on the ship on any given cruise? I'd bet the average is less than 25 people - it isn't a huge age range and it would primarily be young adults who have younger siblings or nieces and nephews they are traveling with. Or babysitters, who are not being brought along so that they can participate in programming. Of those, how many would participate in activities targeted to them - rather than hang in the arcade or the spa or Beat Street or by the adult pool or...... That group doesn't tend to be real participatory - and many of them are going to be anxious to spend some time in the adult areas. If they offer special excursions, how often would they get cancelled because not enough people signed up? Have a special dance for them, and it will be real dull if only two people are there. Its possible these things have been tried in the six years DCL has been sailing, and the interest isn't there.

I do understand the frustration. But I'm not sure that its as easy to solve as people seem to believe it is, or makes any business sense to do so.