What would you do if...

[mhsjax]

I don't want to force anyone to have a child they don't want either but I find it sad that fathers get no say in what happens to unborn children that are just as much theirs even though they aren't physically carrying them. I don't even see many people mentioning the father at all here. They should be part of the discussion even if they don't get to make the final decision. Having the father or father's family willing to help does make a difference. He should be getting custody of the child part of the time if he wants it (unless the hypothetical 15 year old here was raped of course).

I also find it hypocritical to say that no mother should have to have a child they don't want (which I agree with by the way) but to say men do have to have children that they don't want. I'm not suggesting if they don't want them that abortions are forced but just as a mother can choose to not have the financial burden of a child they choose not to have a father needs the same legal out (signing away parental rights for example).

There needs to be more equity without forcing anyone to make a choice they don't want to make either way. Of course fathers are treated like second-class citizens when it comes to their children by much of society so I'm not really surprised.

I completely agree with you. I guess because I have both sons and a daughter. But if a man has no say and can't force a woman to keep a baby, then a woman shouldn't be able to force child support on a father that didn't want to keep the baby.

It takes 2 to make a baby, then it should take 2 to make the decision. Don't' want a baby at 15, then don't have sex at 15. Fine something more important to do with your spare time.

 

[sbell111]

The problem is that in reality, the 15 year old girl isn't making the decision to raise a baby herself in a vacuum. Unless they kick her out, her decision to keep a baby is also manipulating mom and dad into a fair amount of financial, emotional and physical support.

I've never met a 15 year old who could support herself and a child, provide all the child care for a baby and be mature enough to be a good parent. And I've met a whole lot of 15 year old girls.

Why should mom and dad be stuck with another baby they really don't want to raise? It will end up having a big impact on their financial situation, their homelife, their free time and maybe their relationship. Why does she get to make that decision for them?

Because they are her parents (and the baby's grandparents). Their parental responsibility didn't go away just because things suddenly got difficult.

 

[FireDancer]

I think the financial costs are the least of the problems. I think it's safe to assume you've never given birth or been pregnant. First, how do you monitor the mother 24/7 to insure she is taking proper care of herself and not doing anything to harm the child? Second, there is way more to pregnancy and birth then just the cost, I would consider the emotional and physical "costs" much much greater then the financial ones. So, do you compensate the mother for basically being a surrogate for the father? Is financial compensation good enough? Do you just say too bad so sad he wants the baby? Well now there go the mother's rights.

I think it would be awesome if fathers could be treated more equal in these situations, but the logistics of pregnancy just don't allow it IMO.

I just want it to be an option. If, in the end, the mother doesn't want the child and the father does than she will have the abortion as she should be able to. I just think adding the legal option to give up parental rights gives an additional choice that isn't there now. I fail to see how adding one more choice that is at the sole discretion of the mother hurts anyone.

I also think that in the end the more pressing and easier to legislate solution is for when the mother wants the child and the father doesn't. Add a legal way for him to say cool, have the child but I'm not taking responsibility for it and you have taken a big step towards equality. It is a sad decision and I would hope most fathers wouldn't make it but if we truly care about gender equality in this country it would be an option.

You are ultimately right though, there is no way to make father's rights absolutely equal but we can take steps to close the gaping inequality gap that currently exists.

 

[morethananyonex]

I completely agree with you. I guess because I have both sons and a daughter. But if a man has no say and can't force a woman to keep a baby, then a woman shouldn't be able to force child support on a father that didn't want to keep the baby.

It takes 2 to make a baby, then it should take 2 to make the decision. Don't' want a baby at 15, then don't have sex at 15. Fine something more important to do with your spare time.

But what do you do when a woman doesn't believe in abortion? Or if she doesn't find out she's pregnant until too far in for an abortion? How about if the father decides to walk away after the point where an abortion can be done? So the mother is a single mother with no financial support?

Like I said, in a perfect world it would be an equal decision. There's just way too much grey area here. The reality is the man gets his say during conception, otherwise he's at the mercy of the woman. Until men get pregnant too that's how it is.

I just want it to be an option. If, in the end, the mother doesn't want the child and the father does than she will have the abortion as she should be able to. I just think adding the legal option to give up parental rights gives an additional choice that isn't there now. I fail to see how adding one more choice that is at the sole discretion of the mother hurts anyone.

I also think that in the end the more pressing and easier to legislate solution is for when the mother wants the child and the father doesn't. Add a legal way for him to say cool, have the child but I'm not taking responsibility for it and you have taken a big step towards equality. It is a sad decision and I would hope most fathers wouldn't make it but if we truly care about gender equality in this country it would be an option.

You are ultimately right though, there is no way to make father's rights absolutely equal but we can take steps to close the gaping inequality gap that currently exists.

The option would be a good step, I agree. But I still think it would be way too difficult to implement. Especially in situations where the pregnancy isn't discovered until past the point of abortion, then it just becomes unfair to the woman again. The only way I could see it working is if both parties could sign off on it.

 

[sbell111]

The problem with this is what happens if said teen say, decides to go out with her friends and doesn't come back for hours and hours, leaving the baby in your house, hungry and needing changing and etc., when you agreed to watch the baby for 15 minutes?

What happens if the teen breaks down and says they can't keep up with their schoolwork and the baby keeping them up?

I think it's a perfectly understandable stand to take 'your baby, your responsibility' but I kind of doubt how well it sticks. It doesn't stick well with PETS. How many people do you know who end up walking and scooping and feeding the fish of the teens who are supposed to be doing that but are so busy or forgot or 'god, mom, I'll do it, in a miiiinuuute!!!'?

Could you just leave the baby crying? Of course not. Congratulations, you just got a baby.

[/quote]Posts like this one just support the theory that you don't have children.

You act as if the moment that the teen has a baby, that she turns into an MTV show. The reality of it is that she's going to behave based on how you've raised her.

Is she going to be gone for hours instead of the 15 minutes that was agreed on? Not if you raised her right. After all, if she wouldn't have done it before she had the baby, she's not going to do it after.

The same goes for not being able to keep up with her schoolwork. Could she handle all the extracurriculars before the baby? If so, she's going to be able to handle a baby with appropriate support. If not, how did she have time to make a baby?

Finally, regarding what happens if the baby is crying and needs attention, I'm a responsible adult. If that was happening in my house, I'd likely pick up the baby, give him a bottle, change him, whatever. That would be rolled up into showing my daughter how to be a good parent.

 

[sbell111]

Exactly. It is all well and good to say you're not going to do child care, but the reality is that there are many, many situations and ways in which you're likely to end up doing it. And not just hands-on baby care but all the other extras that come along with having a baby in the house. How many of us would just let dirty bottles sit in the sink until our teen got around to washing them? Dirty diapers stink up the bathroom because the teen forgot to take out the trash on her way to school?

Would you have given the teen a pass on doing the dishes or taking out the trash or any other assigned chore before she got pregnant?

Even a well-cared for newborn has a way of messing up the sleep schedules of the entire household; how many of you could sleep through a newborn crying long enough/loudly enough to wake a teen?

Not me. I'd either wake up the teen so she could care for the baby or simply deal with the baby. I'm not seeing the big deal.

Supporting a young teen parent does mean taking on some of the responsibility of caring for the baby, and there's no real way to set limits on that. It just happens in the course of having your child and her child living under your roof.

Of course you can 'set limits' on those things. You handle them exactly as you would handle her responsibilities before she got pregnant.

Parenting our children does not start at the moment that they have a baby.

 

[sbell111]

I do wonder what CPS would have to say about you kicking your 15yr old out on the streets.. I would hope you'd be charged with something. How sad you feel this way.. I'd do everything in my power to help my child, I would hope she'd have the baby... I am pro-life.. I'd even take your pregnant 15yr old in and support her the way a mother should support her daughter no matter what choice they make in life.

I agree with everything about your post, except for the pro-life thing as I am pro-choice. I'd still hope that she'd have the baby. The mere fact that I allow for a woman to have the choice doesn't mean that I would favor them making that choice. It certainly doesn't mean that I would force that choice on them as some in this thread would.

 

[FireDancer]

The option would be a good step, I agree. But I still think it would be way too difficult to implement. Especially in situations where the pregnancy isn't discovered until past the point of abortion, then it just becomes unfair to the woman again. The only way I could see it working is if both parties could sign off on it.

I think finding out about it too late (and I mean actually finding out about it too late, not knowing and keeping it secret until too late) would mean adoption is really the only opt out solution for either the father or the mother. I also think that contrary to some folks it is a very selfless act that should be commended. A child gets life and parents that want to care for them. I really fail to see how anyone can have a problem with it even though of course it brings with it some issues.

You are right, it is a hard to implement but so is so much other legislation that we have found a way to work out (or mostly work out). It is just kind of sad how society treats fathers in many cases. They act as though we aren't equally important to the lives of our children but we are. Sure, there are some crappy ones out there but that is a reflection of them personally, not all of us, just as Casey Anthony isn't a reflection of all mothers.

Look at the current P&G 'Thank you mom' campaign. One of my friends just commented yesterday on Facebook 'Aargh!! Can the Procter & Gamble ads during the Olympic Trials be any more insulting to Dads?!? I guess I don't ever take my daughters to practices or games.' and he is right but I digress. I don't want to take this thread anymore off topic than I already have.

 

[sbell111]

parenthood is not a good choice.

Parenthood is the best choice that I've made in my entire life. I'd give it a tie to marrying my wife, but man is it awesome. It is not optimal for a teenager, but still it would have AMAZING benefits. Of course, you've never looked into the eyes of your beautiful baby.

 

[sbell111]

The teen has no other choice because you have taken any viable option away from them.

Let's see, you can either have an abortion or go live on the street with a newborn baby. Ninety nine percent of the time they are going to go with the abortion because the alternative is homelessness and no family. You are forcing their hand. You can tell yourself that it's all up to the kid if you want. Whatever eases your conscious.

The fact that you would kicked them out even if they opted for adoption is just sickening. It really shouldn't surprise me though.

In reality, I suspect that most girls if given that option by their mothers would merely go live with their fathers.

 

[sbell111]

I'm not taking any option *away*. I'm simply clarifying the options that exist. The option to bring their baby back to my house does not exist, sorry. Nor does it exist for the nameless 30-year-old with no other options. She can't come live with me and bring the baby and expect me to support them either, sorry. That option doesn't exist for her. I'm not taking it away from her, it was never there in the first place.

The simple fact is your plan doesn't work.

You can't legally force your daughter to have an abortion. You also can't legally kick her out. Therefore, whether she decides to have the baby, or give it up for adoption, or have an abortion, she will be stuck living with you.

 

[eliza61]

Because they are her parents (and the baby's grandparents). Their parental responsibility didn't go away just because things suddenly got difficult.

And they should not be stuck with a kid that they did not have but now because of an irresponsible child are now forced to raised?

Philly has an epidemic of poor women struggling at 55,60 and older now being forced to try and raise grand kids. Oh, hell no.

I have friends (not good friends, but they are nice people) in this situation. daughter got pregnant at 15 by a no good, drug dealer. now they are stuck in their late 50's trying to not only get mom (their daughter) to do the right thing but now stuck with this horrible 3 year old. their finances are shot because who do you think is picking up the tab for this kid. Who do you think is paying for childcare, clothes, doctor visits. Then the girl gets an attitude because mom and dad won't foot the bill for her to have a designer prom dress etc, etc. Excuse me but when you decide to kick out a kid, you effectively give up going to the prom, disco, wildwood for senior week and senior trip. You are a mother now. Here in NJ sorry there are not a lot of jobs for 15/16 year olds. heck some of the college kids are home and having a hard time finding a job.

they have told their daughter that in one year they are selling the house and moving without her. Yes, it sounds cold and they are devestated to know they are essentially tossing their kid out on the street but they are now to the point of desperation. She's 18 won't work, no plans to go to college, claims she wants to stay home with the baby. Oh how nice.

Now some kids do do the right thing and I'm hoping this young lady is the extreme, some how I don't think so. I'm lucky my sons never came home with a baby. We have told both our sons, no sorry you can not move into our house with a newborn. YOu made the baby, YOU figure out how to raise the bably. If that makes us cruel so be it. I will help out as much as I'm financially able to, but I will not risk my retirement to raise a grandkid.
I'm totally prochoice and if they get a girl pregnant and can't afford it or raise it, they need to look at all options.


I absolutely break out in hives with the thought of having to raise any more babies. I cringe when I see shows like "teen mom" and all that other crap that makes teenage pregnancy look so glamourous and sooo easy. Yeah, it's easy when you aren't paying the rent, buying the food or diapers or worrying about getting the kid vaccinated.

 

[eliza61]

The simple fact is your plan doesn't work.

You can't legally force your daughter to have an abortion. You also can't legally kick her out. Therefore, whether she decides to have the baby, or give it up for adoption, or have an abortion, she will be stuck living with you.

No she won't. CPS will call you to court and you will appear before a judge. Tell them exactly the situation and when girl turns 18 have her become a ward of the state. She can apply for state aid, apply for welfare and can get public housing.

like I said, call me an evil mother but you made the decision to have a kid, better figure out how to raise that kid.

Once again it's very easy to say I'm not having an abortion when you're happily not paying for a thing.
I am also not just a "throw your kid out" but a decision like this does not only effect the young lady. It's royally screwing up every body who is living in that house life.

 

[Colleen27]

I agree that a two parent house is best. Ultimately though there must be no gender bias in the law. If there is a mechanism for a mother to decide that she doesn't want to be financially responsible for raising a child she doesn't want there must be a mechanism for a father to do the same. We should never have a situation where one gender has the option while the other doesn't.

I'm not talking about household make up. I'm also talking about child support. Right now, cash assistance is reduced dollar-for-dollar by child support collected, and cooperation with establishing paternity and securing a child support order are conditions of receiving public assistance. Allow those men who do not wish to be fathers but also do not wish to take precautions to prevent a legal opt-out and you're talking about a lot more taxpayer funding propping up the results of that irresponsibility.

If all a man has to do is claim the mother continued the pregnancy against his will to be off the hook financially you're inviting an epidemic of legally fatherless children depending upon government for support. There is no way to legislate away biological inequalities, and any attempt to do so is quite simply putting the pipe dream of fairness ahead of the good of the children involved and our society as a whole.

 

[Elinor Dashwood]

And they should not be stuck with a kid that they did not have but now because of an irresponsible child are now forced to raised?

Philly has an epidemic of poor women struggling at 55,60 and older now being forced to try and raise grand kids. Oh, hell no.

I have friends (not good friends, but they are nice people) in this situation. daughter got pregnant at 15 by a no good, drug dealer. now they are stuck in their late 50's trying to not only get mom (their daughter) to do the right thing but now stuck with this horrible 3 year old. their finances are shot because who do you think is picking up the tab for this kid. Who do you think is paying for childcare, clothes, doctor visits. Here in NJ sorry there are not a lot of jobs for 15/16 year olds. heck some of the college kids are home and having a hard time finding a job.

they have told their daughter that in one year they are selling the house and moving without her. Yes, it sounds cold and they are devestated to know they are essentially tossing their kid out on the street but they are now to the point of desperation.

Now some kids do do the right thing and I'm lucky my sons never came home with a baby. We have told both our sons, no sorry you can not move into our house with a newborn. YOu made the baby, YOU figure out how to raise the bably. If that makes us cruel so be it. I will help out as much as I'm financial able to but I will not risk my retirement to raise a grandkid.
I'm totally prochoice and if they get a girl pregnant and can't afford it or raise it, they need to look at all options.


I absolutely break out in hives with the thought of having to raise any more babies. I cringe when I see shows like "teen mom" and all that other crap that makes teenage pregnancy look so glamourous and sooo easy. Yeah, it's easy when you aren't paying the rent, buying the food or diapers or worrying about getting the kid vaccinated.

No she won't. CPS will call you to court and you will appear before a judge. Tell them exactly the situation and when girl turns 18 have her become a ward of the state. She can apply for state aid, apply for welfare and can get public housing.

like I said, call me an evil mother but you made the decision to have a kid, better figure out how to raise that kid.

Once again it's very easy to say I'm not having an abortion when you're happily not paying for a thing.
I am also not just a "throw your kid out" but a decision like this does not only effect the young lady. It's royally screwing up every body who is living in that house life.

Both of these posts are rather shocking. I realize it's your opinion but I was still surprised to read the vehemance. I understand that a 15 year old getting pregnant is a mistake but why turn against them in such a crisis? If it were my daughter, I'd be very disappointed but I would do all in my power to help her and my future grandbaby. People make mistakes all the time but she's only 15 and this is a life changing event for her. I don't see how turning your back on her, tossing her over to the state or refusing to help is in any way helping the situation. Talk about kicking someone while they're down, man. What you're teaching her is that if she screws up, she can't count on her family for help or support.

 

[sbell111]

And wouldn't it be justice if it was the DD that went to the CPS and told them that because I am pregnant and I refuse to abort the child at my mothers demand, my parents have put me out of the family home.

Cornflake's suggestion that she might not be reported for her actions simply doesn't fly.

Even if she wasn't directly turned in by family, friends, the daughter, or the school, a likely scenario is that the girl would present at a health department or clinic for prenatal care. During the conversation about payment/finances, the girl would no doubt explain that her parents had kicked her out. The health department or clinic would report the issue as required by law.

 

[Pigeon]

Both of these posts are rather shocking. I realize it's your opinion but I was still surprised to read the vehemance. I understand that a 15 year old getting pregnant is a mistake but why turn against them in such a crisis? If it were my daughter, I'd be very disappointed but I would do all in my power to help her and my future grandbaby. People make mistakes all the time but she's only 15 and this is a life changing event for her. I don't see how turning your back on her, tossing her over to the state or refusing to help is in any way helping the situation. Talk about kicking someone while they're down, man. What you're teaching her is that if she screws up, she can't count on her family for help or support.

Because some of us have no intention of allowing a 15 year old to make life changing decisions for us or for the rest of the family.

If she screws up, there are other options besides expecting me to raise her kid. What we're teaching her is that she cannot expect her poor choices to dictate the living conditions and financial situation for the other family members.

 

[sbell111]

You are right, the whole point of "pro-choice" is that it IS a choice. And while it really is the choice of the girl/woman who is carrying the baby, I think it is very sad that so many would not allow the boy to have a voice in it.

IMHO, one of the reasons that so many young men think they can easily walk out of the life of their child and the girl/woman that is carrying that child is that we (society) make it that easy by not allowing him to be a part of the decision making. If he can't help to decide whether abortion, adoption or keeping the baby is the best choice, why should he have to take responsibility for that choice?

As for paternity (another poster brought up), I certainly hope that I have, at the very least, taught my child enough morals that paternity would not be in question (unless of course, the boy brings it in to question and at that point I guess his choice would be apparent anyway.)

On the other hand, if we were to allow men to simply give up any and all obligations to the child at his whim as teh previous poster suggested, then it would merely result in more young men walking out of their child's lives.

 

[tyzzle]

No she won't. CPS will call you to court and you will appear before a judge. Tell them exactly the situation and when girl turns 18 have her become a ward of the state. She can apply for state aid, apply for welfare and can get public housing.

like I said, call me an evil mother but you made the decision to have a kid, better figure out how to raise that kid.

Once again it's very easy to say I'm not having an abortion when you're happily not paying for a thing.
I am also not just a "throw your kid out" but a decision like this does not only effect the young lady. It's royally screwing up every body who is living in that house life.

Yes, but CPD will require you to care for her financially until 17 or 18. They will not her a ward of the state for getting pregnant

 

[sbell111]

In the scenario where the father wants an abortion and mother does not he should be able to sign away his parental rights. He gets no contact but also shares no financial burden.

I couldn't disagree with this more.

In your scenario, a man can simply spread his seed with wild abandon and have no obligations. "You're pregnant? Get an abortion, <expletive deleted>."