What the Hell is Wrong with DVC?

[mlayton14]

What if they still keep a couple of deer on the Savannah? Are we guaranteed giraffes and zebras?

Would squirrels count ?

 

[Deploraboo]

Aaaaaaaand. Still seeing DVC contracts for sale demanding full price offers only..... SMH.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

Sorry to those who see this as a distraction, I did not believe the OP which was kind of an outburst to me was as limited as some. This will be my last post on the IL Law.

I see now what part of the problem is. I mistakenly did not clarify that IL Consumer Fraud Act is NOT a contract action or remedy. When someone sues under the IL Act it is a tort. Breach of contract is not an issue. Breach of contract claims can not be brought under it.

I get why you are focused on the contract signed. Leave aside the contract you signed and just address the removal of animals. From "ANIMAL" Kingdom, from the "SAVANNA" view and the countless other examples of how the animals being there was the prime factor for the existence of the entire resort. My guess is that not a single person who helped design, construct or care for the animals would testify as to anything except that the care and health of the animals along with the design and construction was to provide the animal/guest experience; and that was the prime mover in the resort being created and marketed.

The key is no material adverse actions.

To me there is no doubt at all that removing the animals is material. In fact I literally can not think of anything that would be as material. The resort location is terrible, bus service an abomination and without animals and theme it could be an all stars. Without animals it is simply not animal kingdom.

To me, leaving aside your contract concerns it seems you are agreeing it is adverse. There is no question it would be an action. So the remaining question is whether it is material to you.

So that is the remaining question I have for you.


In brief comparing a phone speed slow down is different from removal. What is the phone company slowed your phone to the point it would literally not work but would be on?

I would be upset if they were removed. What I'm trying to understand is how, just because I'm unhappy about it, that I would get legal protection from something that I agreed to in the contract I signed?

Previously, you stated that the IL law protected against material alterations to the contract. I interpreted that to mean changing the terms of the contract in a material way. Since the contract addresses this specific circumstance, the contract is not being altered.

What you seem to be saying is that even a change that's explicitly defined in the contract is subject to this law if the customer deems that it's adverse to them.

So, in the terms and conditions of your cell phone contract, it says that your data slows down after you use a certain amount. Therefore, you can have that element of the contract thrown out because you deem it to be adverse to you?

I'm not trying to be argumentative... just trying to understand how your describing this law and how it would be applied in this instance. If DVC openly disclosed in writing that the animals could be removed, and you signed a contract with those terms and conditions, how does that qualify as a deceptive practice that this law would protect you from?

 

[peabody58]

I think I'll go over to the TUG forum board and see how the other timeshares are dealing with this. DVC can't be the only player who is having challenges. I'm also sure RCI inventory will be limited for 2021 as everyone and their brother will be trying to reschedule.

 

[Brian Noble]

I think I'll go over to the TUG forum board and see how the other timeshares are dealing with this.

Wyndham, the one I know best, is not extending banked points or allowing them to be re-banked. Their normal banking deadline for current year points is based on how many developer-purchased points you own. Resale-only or low-point owners have to bank within the first three months. The highest tier can wait until the last day. This year, everyone was extended to the latest deadline (end of the year) regardless of ownership status. The vast majority of us have January use years, though, so it wasn't much of an issue for most of us. In my own case, I banked/deposited what I wanted to for the 2020 year before the end of March (my normal deadline) in any event. I suspect most of us did that.

 

[ParrotBill]

Here's a thought. What if we calculate the % of days lost from closure, then deduct that same % of points from every contract. Points lost from closures come out first. Then current use year, if any left. If still not satisfied, then next use year. If points were going to be lost even after deduction then the remaining points are placed in the next use year. Those points are offset by others losing points next use year. If you have a future reservation you may have to shorten it or borrow more points if available to revalidate it. Impact is taken more or less evenly by everyone.

 

[Sandisw]

Here's a thought. What if we calculate the % of days lost from closure, then deduct that same % of points from every contract. Points lost from closures come out first. Then current use year, if any left. If still not satisfied, then next use year. If points were going to be lost even after deduction then the remaining points are placed in the next use year. Those points are offset by others losing points next use year. If you have a future reservation you may have to shorten it or borrow more points if available to revalidate it. Impact is taken more or less evenly by everyone.

If been reading and I am not seeing anything in either timeshare law, or POS that would allow that move to be considered legal,

They would still have to find a way to first deal with the banked points for individual contracts and whether or not those can be given more life, above and beyond the 2 UYs,

The more I read, the more I think that refunding MFs for all points lost since closure was announced and until it opens,and then apply that cost to the membership as a special assessment at each resort

That move would not involve making deals with Disney and given the number of overall points, it doesn’t seem like it would amount to that much of a change for the 2021 UY.

 

[CraigInPA]

I think the idea of refunding MF's for points lost, and then asking all the rest of the members to pay a special assessment is one of those things which would require a vote of the entire membership. i.e., it'll never happen.

 

[Sandisw]

I think the idea of refunding MF's for points lost, and then asking all the rest of the members to pay a special assessment is one of those things which would require a vote of the entire membership. i.e., it'll never happen.

Under emergency powers of POS, it mentions that s vote isn’t necessary for special assessments when related to damage.

Now, this isn’t damage per se, but it is a result of resort closure for health reasons, which is also mentioned in that same section of contract.

So, it could apply?

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

To me, leaving aside your contract concerns it seems you are agreeing it is adverse. There is no question it would be an action. So the remaining question is whether it is material to you.

Yes, I would agree that removing the animals would be adverse. It just seemed to me that, despite that, there would be no recourse since this specific circumstance was agreed to in the contract. If the terms of the contract aren't relevant to this law as you've clarified, then I can see how it might apply based solely on the end state being materially adverse.

On a related note, I think it would go without saying that people would not be willing to spend extra for a "savanna" view room with a view of an empty savanna. Maybe a few dollars (or points) more than parking lot view, but not much.
Sorry if this reply has gone further.

I also pledge that this is my last post about IL law.

 

[DougEMG]

So. Does everybody understand the difference between owning and renting real estate? Owning real estate comes with additional benefits compared to renting real estate, but also comes with additional risk. When you rent real estate, you pay a spread above and beyond the cost of ownership and accept a lower amount of risk. The risk is borne by the owner.
DVC owners are OWNERS of real estate and therefore bear the risk unforeseen circumstances. You are not entitled to have Disney cover your losses.
Cash room guests are renters. They pay an amount that represents profit to the owner (Disney), and The risk associated with ownership falls to Disney.
DVC owners have a manager appointed who assumes no risk. Read your contract. The risk, financial or otherwise, is flowed through the manager and onto the OWNER.
You can’t buy a property and glean all of the benefits of ownership and refuse the risk. That’s not how it works.

Are we really owners or are we just renters with 50 year lease agreements?

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

Your word choice determines your answer. In this case you literally get a yes and no answer.
A 50 year lease is a real estate interest. You own it. It is recorded. But it expires. It is not permanent as the experience most people have with their home where you own it until you sell or die. Your own only for the number of years for your particular resort.

Are we really owners or are we just renters with 50 year lease agreements?

 

[TraderSamWDW]

Right, same with our in 1997. The original guides were better salespeople and felt responsible for what they were selling. It wasn't Pixiedust and dreams. It was a timeshare.


Exactly the reason you don't want to buy a brand new house. About a week after we moved into our brand new house, in a brand new subdivision, the upstairs toilet overflowed and the ceiing in the kitchen fell down. Found out there were carpet scraps and other debris that had been tossed in the toilet during construction.

I have about 30 years experience in the industry, i have seen what people do. Actually i have come to think that everything I have been taught about electricity is a lie. Can not tell you how many people swap out 15 amp circuit breakers with 20 because the AC keeps tripping it - but the wire is only 14 ga. and rated for 15 amps, not 20. I will only buy new construction built by a builder I know.

Oh, and lived in a house that burnt to the ground because of bad "DIYer" wiring and lost everything I owned. There is that too. (Luckily I was in my 20s and didnt own a lot at the time - and no one was hurt)

 

[Cdn Jeff]

Are we really owners or are we just renters with 50 year lease agreements?

owners. It’s in the registered deed.

 

[ParrotBill]

The more I read, the more I think that refunding MFs for all points lost since closure was announced and until it opens,and then apply that cost to the membership as a special assessment at each resort

What is "MF" please?
Well as you explain this seems likely that is what they would try. But it is still really murky for people like me who get their reservation canceled and then have 60 days to find a reservation and go if that is even possible... they might have to pull back and say only if your points expired by a certain number of days after or you just lose them.

But the valuation of points lost would be... what? One use year is worth around 1/50th to 1/40th of what you paid for your contract? I paid more than that in due for a year I could not use. My refund would be worth less than one night's cash value of a one bedroom villa...

 

[Deb & Bill]

What is "MF" please?
Well as you explain this seems likely that is what they would try. But it is still really murky for people like me who get their reservation canceled and then have 60 days to find a reservation and go if that is even possible... they might have to pull back and say only if your points expired by a certain number of days after or you just lose them.

But the valuation of points lost would be... what? One use year is worth around 1/50th to 1/40th of what you paid for your contract? I paid more than that in due for a year I could not use. My refund would be worth less than one night's cash value of a one bedroom villa...

Member Fees, annual dues, the cost for running the resort based on the number of points you own. Member fees run about $6-9 a point. Add the initial cost of the points and you are looking upward of $12-14 a point.

 

[Sandisw]

What is "MF" please?
Well as you explain this seems likely that is what they would try. But it is still really murky for people like me who get their reservation canceled and then have 60 days to find a reservation and go if that is even possible... they might have to pull back and say only if your points expired by a certain number of days after or you just lose them.

But the valuation of points lost would be... what? One use year is worth around 1/50th to 1/40th of what you paid for your contract? I paid more than that in due for a year I could not use. My refund would be worth less than one night's cash value of a one bedroom villa...

MFs are maintenance fees. It was just a suggestion of how to help those owners who couldlose points and have all the owners as a whole share in the loss,

Right now, points are being lost and there may not be a way that they can help that will make everyone happy.

There is no easy answer as to what to do

 

[4evryoung]

members dues should reassessed since many of the costs of the dues (housekeeping, etc.) are not currently necessary. We should be refunded or our dues modified once DVC reopens.

But, think how much damage will have been done to those rooms in three months of Florida climate if the rooms haven't been cleaned, aired, rodent checked, mildew bleached etc in the lock down. The deep clean of each resort will be costly. It might have been cheaper to keep the housekeeping staff working and the air con on.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

But, think how much damage will have been done to those rooms in three months of Florida climate if the rooms haven't been cleaned, aired, rodent checked, mildew bleached etc in the lock down. The deep clean of each resort will be costly. It might have been cheaper to keep the housekeeping staff working and the air con on.

Not to mention plumbing issues. Any snowbird who leaves a place south in the summer can tell you that turning the plumbing back on is a process not an event.

 

[4evryoung]

Not to mention plumbing issues. Any snowbird who leaves a place south in the summer can tell you that turning the plumbing back on is a process not an event.

Oh boy, the idea of walking into a unit where the toilet hasn't been flushed in 3 months....