What the Hell is Wrong with DVC?

[Ms.Minnie]

I guess this brings to mine the expression "buyer beware".

DVC is a major purchase and anyone entering into a contract of this sort should do their homework, shame on them if they didn't. It then become their problem and they can only blame themselves for not doing the needed research before making the purchase. I guess some people just have too much money and they also don't want to take responsibility for their own foolishness. Ignorance on a subject does not aliviate their own responsibility for not knowing the workings of what they bought.

In this case ignorance is NOT bliss. Buyer beware. When entering into a legal RE contract for a substantial amount of money people need to have their eyes wide open. If they didn't, shame on them.

 

[TraderSamWDW]

I just wanted to bring to light that if owners who don’t have a good understanding and go out and bad mouth Disney to wrongly accuse them of not doing things they should, and it turns someone else off, then it may be a good thing,

Not from Disney's point of view (thats lost $$) and thats what they have to balance.

 

[Sandisw]

Not from Disney's point of view (thats lost $$) and thats what they have to balance.

Disney is worried about the company and the employees. and long term sustainability for their other divisions,

I do not believe pleasing DVC owners is at the top of that list right now.

 

[TraderSamWDW]

I guess this brings to mine the expression "buyer beware".

DVC is a major purchase and anyone entering into a contract of this sort should do their homework, shame on them if they didn't. It then become their problem and they can only blame themselves for not doing the needed research before making the purchase. I guess some people just have too much money and they also don't want to take responsibility for their own foolishness. Ignorance on a subject does not aliviate their own responsibility for not knowing the workings of what they bought.

In this case ignorance is NOT bliss. Buyer beware. When entering into a legal RE contract for a substantial amount of money people need to have their eyes wide open. If they didn't, shame on them.

Exactly. The main reason I say NEVER buy a used house! because you don't know what was done behind all those closed up walls, who did what with the electrical work, etc, etc,
Way too much money to spend on something owned by some shoemaker DIY person going to town

Then again people were screaming when skyliner traffic got diverted past the Boardwalk, they should have known that a DVC contract did not guarantee them peace and quiet.

 

[Lumpy1106]

I guess this brings to mine the expression "buyer beware".

DVC is a major purchase and anyone entering into a contract of this sort should do their homework, shame on them if they didn't. It then become their problem and they can only blame themselves for not doing the needed research before making the purchase. I guess some people just have too much money and they also don't want to take responsibility for their own foolishness. Ignorance on a subject does not aliviate their own responsibility for not knowing the workings of what they bought.

In this case ignorance is NOT bliss. Buyer beware. When entering into a legal RE contract for a substantial amount of money people need to have their eyes wide open. If they didn't, shame on them.

Nah, I can't get behind this. This pre-supposes that a discussion about 'worldwide pandemic' came up during your discussion to buy DVC - I flat-out don't believe that ever did for anyone. I DO think there will be SOMETHING done to help owners who have lost/are going to lose points, because Disney. I can also guarantee that, even after that, someone will be unhappy with the outcome; you just can't please all of the people all of the time. I could speculate, but I really think it's far too early to do that. We need to know just how long the resorts are closed and just how many points are affected. Until then, relax - getting bent out of shape will not help.

 

[Sandisw]

Nah, I can't get behind this. This pre-supposes that a discussion about 'worldwide pandemic' came up during your discussion to buy DVC - I flat-out don't believe that ever did for anyone. I DO think there will be SOMETHING done to help owners who have lost/are going to lose points, because Disney. I can also guarantee that, even after that, someone will be unhappy with the outcome; you just can't please all of the people all of the time. I could speculate, but I really think it's far too early to do that. We need to know just how long the resorts are closed and just how many points are affected. Until then, relax - getting bent out of shape will not help.

I think the point was, pandemic or not, one needs to understand what is bought and the risk and limitations with it,

There are owners who purposely will not travel during the end of the UY because it poses a big risk for points. We didn’t think of or plan for this either, but we did understand that losing points is A possibility, especially when you schedule your trip during that risky time,

So, you are right, we don’t know if DVCM can come up with a plan for the lost points.

But, this situation has opened a lot of eyes to making sure they understand now what it is they own. IMO, that is a good thing.

 

[TraderSamWDW]

Disney is worried about the company and the employees. and long term sustainability for their other divisions,

I do not believe pleasing DVC owners is at the top of that list right now.

Don't forget shareholders!

Not saying its on the top of their list, but it is on their list.

 

[itutorfortravel]

I’m going to end up losing points. How about a significant discount on tickets or annual passes based on the value of those points (for instance, if rented). So I lose 50 points I get $800-1000 in ticket / pass credit as those points normally rent for $18-20pp.

 

[Ms.Minnie]

Exactly. The main reason I say NEVER buy a used house! because you don't know what was done behind all those closed up walls, who did what with the electrical work, etc, etc,
Way too much money to spend on something owned by some shoemaker DIY person going to town

Then again people were screaming when skyliner traffic got diverted past the Boardwalk, they should have known that a DVC contract did not guarantee them peace and quiet.

That's why people get home inspections...guess you didn't know that.

Ah tochey...you apparently missed the point of my argument in that thread which by the way was closed down so not sure you should be bringing it here but since you did here goes. I still say and I know I'm correct in saying that BC is a much shorter walk from IG, it has easy access into the lobby to get to the bus stop for those guests who have mobility issues and guests with strollers unlike the BW that has a large flight of steps or only two elevators that can be used to access the lobby to get to the bus stop. Also the bus stop is much larger at BC when compared to BW. I can't help it if you don't understand those points but since you brought it up I was forced to restate the obvious.

 

[DVC92]

Owning at OKW, BLT, and VGF, I foresee losing some points, but it's better than getting the virus. Being in the older age group, I don't know when I will return absent a disappearance of the virus in the near future (unlikely) or an effective vaccine. I don't know if it has been previously addressed in in this thread, even if it is really legal to close DVC which I am not sure about, members dues should reassessed since many of the costs of the dues (housekeeping, etc.) are not currently necessary. We should be refunded or our dues modified once DVC reopens.

 

[crisi]

Nah, I can't get behind this. This pre-supposes that a discussion about 'worldwide pandemic' came up during your discussion to buy DVC - I flat-out don't believe that ever did for anyone. I DO think there will be SOMETHING done to help owners who have lost/are going to lose points, because Disney. I can also guarantee that, even after that, someone will be unhappy with the outcome; you just can't please all of the people all of the time. I could speculate, but I really think it's far too early to do that. We need to know just how long the resorts are closed and just how many points are affected. Until then, relax - getting bent out of shape will not help.

Not worldwide pandemic, but we had these discussions here - what if HHI is underwater in 20 years (its projected to be). What if they decide to close the monorail? What if they decide not to have animals on the VAKL savannahs? What if the parks close? And rather than treating any of this as actual possibilities, those who bring it up are shouted down by Pollyannas who want to believe "Disney would never."

We bought a real estate interest. From Disney's perspective, the benefits to selling timeshares are multiple, but include moving this risk to us, the owners.

And yes, Disney is a huge corporation - but no company is too big to fail. I haven't looked at Disney's balance sheet in a long time - so I don't know how leveraged they are - but I understand that with parks expansions, more cruise ships coming, a bigger Broadway presence, the investment in Disney plus - Disney isn't exactly cash rich at the moment - and its a bad moment to not be cash rich. In addition to any loans they have out (and they'll have some, that's how companies work), they will also have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders. As well as ethical responsibilities to their other stakeholders - their customers, yes - but also their employees, their vendors, the state of Florida, the localities around them - from Orlando to Celebration, etc. etc..

We are going to have to be patient and understand that Disney has a lot of competing needs right now - and the wants - and yes, they are wants - of a bunch of timeshare owners in terms of being made whole are a little tiny flea of an issue to them right now. Perhaps, when resources are dished out and after the lawyers have their say and they have some idea of what it will take, we will manage to see some sort of compensation. Perhaps we will not, because their won't be a good legal way to do so, or because it will be too expensive for a strained company, because Disney in fact, is a huge corporation that really doesn't care about us, or because they will decide that in a post COVID world, they really don't want to be in the timeshare business at all - and really want to minimize the parks business - because of the pandemic risk (as well as the climate change risks, etc.). We are in a changing world due to global warming. This won't - according to experts - be the last pandemic we will face in a fairly short timeframe. Ice caps melting are bringing viruses to life that have been locked in ice for tens of thousands of years.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

Not worldwide pandemic, but we had these discussions here - what if HHI is underwater in 20 years (its projected to be). What if they decide to close the monorail? What if they decide not to have animals on the VAKL savannahs? What if the parks close? And rather than treating any of this as actual possibilities, those who bring it up are shouted down by Pollyannas who want to believe "Disney would never."

We bought a real estate interest. From Disney's perspective, the benefits to selling timeshares are multiple, but include moving this risk to us, the owners.

And yes, Disney is a huge corporation - but no company is too big to fail. I haven't looked at Disney's balance sheet in a long time - so I don't know how leveraged they are - but I understand that with parks expansions, more cruise ships coming, a bigger Broadway presence, the investment in Disney plus - Disney isn't exactly cash rich at the moment - and its a bad moment to not be cash rich. In addition to any loans they have out (and they'll have some, that's how companies work), they will also have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders. As well as ethical responsibilities to their other stakeholders - their customers, yes - but also their employees, their vendors, the state of Florida, the localities around them - from Orlando to Celebration, etc. etc..

We are going to have to be patient and understand that Disney has a lot of competing needs right now - and the wants - and yes, they are wants - of a bunch of timeshare owners in terms of being made whole are a little tiny flea of an issue to them right now. Perhaps, when resources are dished out and after the lawyers have their say and they have some idea of what it will take, we will manage to see some sort of compensation. Perhaps we will not, because their won't be a good legal way to do so, or because it will be too expensive for a strained company, because Disney in fact, is a huge corporation that really doesn't care about us, or because they will decide that in a post COVID world, they really don't want to be in the timeshare business at all - and really want to minimize the parks business - because of the pandemic risk (as well as the climate change risks, etc.). We are in a changing world due to global warming. This won't - according to experts - be the last pandemic we will face in a fairly short timeframe. Ice caps melting are bringing viruses to life that have been locked in ice for tens of thousands of years.

You had me until global warming. Lol

 

[DebbieB]

Technically DVC doesn’t owe you anything. You are an owner and therefore assume the risk. If you read the documents you signed, if the building where your timeshare exists gets destroyed, and DVC decides it is not worth rebuilding, you could lose your timeshare entirely, no compensation. When we signed, we read through all documents and that piece gave us pause, but of course we signed anyway!
This situation is different, but it is a force majeure situation. It is not DVC’s fault that the government shut them down. Luckily you are just out some points and not the entire timeshare.
That being said, I do think Disney should and will find a way to fix this, but you should know what your actual contract says. You should know that they are not obligated by law to compensate you.

I just read the BWV Public Offering Statement. If the building is damaged and not restored, the insurance proceeds will be divided out to the members. We are paying insurance premiums in dues.

Members' meeting in December should be a hoot.

i bet they don’t allow questions. I’ve attended 3 meetings and when they did allow questions, they were softballs.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

Thanks for the response. This entire idea of Disney 'owning' the owners might be hysteria from the real C19 threat but a lot is repeating of nonsense from bad or made up sources. Disney does not get to alter time share law and they push the law in the documents. I totally believe that Disney meets people more than half way but one of the multiple motivations is stop prevent a class action.

ATM nobody should be making pronouncements or changes. There is no way knowing how bad or how long this will be. This is triage time, bandage time. That is what Disney and Daves are doing. No plots, no evil intent, no owning.

I just read the BWV Public Offering Statement. If the building is damaged and not restored, the insurance proceeds will be divided out to the members. We are paying insurance premiums in dues.



i bet they don’t allow questions. I’ve attended 3 meetings and when they did allow questions, they were softballs.

 

[Ms.Minnie]

Nah, I can't get behind this. This pre-supposes that a discussion about 'worldwide pandemic' came up during your discussion to buy DVC - I flat-out don't believe that ever did for anyone. I DO think there will be SOMETHING done to help owners who have lost/are going to lose points, because Disney. I can also guarantee that, even after that, someone will be unhappy with the outcome; you just can't please all of the people all of the time. I could speculate, but I really think it's far too early to do that. We need to know just how long the resorts are closed and just how many points are affected. Until then, relax - getting bent out of shape will not help.

Prior to this event why would anyone have thought to ask about a worldwide pandemic? In all my life nothing like this has ever happened and I don't think that most people would have ever thought that it could (aside from Bill Gates and possibly a few others). Well we all know now that it can and it did. That being said I'm not sure Disney owes anybody anything. They were told to closedown just like everyone else and they are loosing hugs amounts of revenue, through no fault of their own, each day they remain closed. If this were to go on for any great length of time they could possible fail as a business. Wouldn't that be a shame? Wouldn't we all be upset if that were to happen? You wouldn't just be loosing a few points you would loose DVC. Now that would be something to be upset about, not because you're angry with Disney but because something we have all come to enjoy very much and paid substantial amounts of money for would be taken away from all of us.

I know I for one would be very sad to never be able to go to WDW again. For as long as I can remember I have loved Disney and pretty much all it represents. If I never got to experience that again I would truly be sad.

I hope all of you can find piece with what is going on. I had to find my own piece with the IG traffic redirect issue and the recent points allocation. I have since moved on, put it behind me and I find I still enjoy Disney very much.

 

[SpaceMountain77]

Sandi, while I don't really disagree with your statement, what percentage of DVC owners do you think have an understanding of the true workings of DVC?

3 percent....MAYBE? Lets get crazy and call it 10 percent. Most people have NO idea. In fact, I would say Disney does not really want them to have an idea.

If only people who truly understood the inner working of DVC bought into it, they would still be selling Old Key West (not because its a poor offering, because that is how small the number of people who really understand this.)

How many very knowledgeable people on these forums have dummied it down to "prepaying your hotel" - and I don't think they are wrong to do so, but technically it is about 98% inaccurate.

There are what, 150K - 200K DVC owners - what, maybe 1000 come to forums such as this?

No one would have ever thought to ask their guide "What happens if the parks get closed for an extended period of time?" But now, they might. If a guide's response is, well, then you are SOL.....sales might go down.

Mind you, I did not say they should do something, or that they should not do something. Honestly, I do not really care, whatever they do, Ill live with it. I merely highlighted the line they are walking right now. It has nothing to do with corporate and legal structures. Any business that displeases its customers does do at its own risk. And while Disney doing nothing may be legally "right" its risks driving away customers. And there is a good likely hood that attendance may be bad for a long time to come, I really have no idea.

Anyone who purchased an ownership interest in Disney's Animal Kingdom Villas should not expect the continued presence of animals on the savanna.

That is one of the gems in the AKV contract.

 

[TraderSamWDW]

Disney does not get to alter time share law and they push the law in the documents.

They did get to change national copyright law in 1998, so anything is possible. (Not saying they will) See the Mickey Mouse Protection Act. Amazing what campaign contributions can do.
(Again, not saying they will do this at all)

 

[Cdn Jeff]

So. Does everybody understand the difference between owning and renting real estate? Owning real estate comes with additional benefits compared to renting real estate, but also comes with additional risk. When you rent real estate, you pay a spread above and beyond the cost of ownership and accept a lower amount of risk. The risk is borne by the owner.
DVC owners are OWNERS of real estate and therefore bear the risk unforeseen circumstances. You are not entitled to have Disney cover your losses.
Cash room guests are renters. They pay an amount that represents profit to the owner (Disney), and The risk associated with ownership falls to Disney.
DVC owners have a manager appointed who assumes no risk. Read your contract. The risk, financial or otherwise, is flowed through the manager and onto the OWNER.
You can’t buy a property and glean all of the benefits of ownership and refuse the risk. That’s not how it works.

 

[Deploraboo]

Not even that. They own a fractional interest in real estate. which is basically a right to use. Like a rental.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

The continuing and classic conflict. Will fine print that nobody reads overcome advertising that nobody can avoid or miss.

I bought at AK instead of a different resort (I own at 2 others) exactly and precisely for the savanna and the animals.

As an IL resident I feel pretty confident that if I need safety from Disney doing things like removing the animals then among other avenues the Illinois Consumer Fraud and Deceptive Business Practices Act will give me a remedy; when and even more so when the question of real estate is separated from the non real estate. I am also confident many other IL Owners at AK would feel the same way triggering a class action and an overwhelming tsunami of bad press. Every potential juror would get this.

No "fraud" as it is commonly understood is required. Only a 'advertisement' provided from the business to the consumer that was intended to be relied on; and it does not require the consumer to have actually been misled. Being mislead is not the same as being gas light (or in other words not informed, distracted, bait and switched).

IL does not allow a waiver of the rights under the act.

(b) The term "merchandise" includes any objects, wares, goods, commodities, intangibles, real estate situated outside the State of Illinois, or services.
(f) The terms "trade" and "commerce" mean the advertising, offering for sale, sale, or distribution of any services and any property, tangible or intangible, real, personal or mixed, and any other article, commodity, or thing of value wherever situated, and shall include any trade or commerce directly or indirectly affecting the people of this State.

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=2356&ChapterID=67

Anyone who purchased an ownership interest in Disney's Animal Kingdom Villas should not expect the continued presence of animals on the savanna.

That is one of the gems in the AKV contract.