WDW to prevent AP holders from visiting parks many mornings

[Smugpugmug]

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These are old numbers. If you look at 2020 and 2021, Universal Studios Florida has higher attendance than HS (though different sites show varying results for Epcot, which is strange?)

 

[tjkraz]

These are old numbers. If you look at 2020 and 2021, Universal Studios Florida has higher attendance than HS (though different sites show varying results for Epcot, which is strange?)

2021 figures haven’t been released by AECOM yet.

Not sure there’s any relevance whatsoever in 2020 figures. HS seems to be a more compact park, which is meaningful when social distancing measures are in place.

 

[Smugpugmug]

2021 figures haven’t been released by AECOM yet.

Not sure there’s any relevance whatsoever in 2020 figures. HS seems to be a more compact park, which is meaningful when social distancing measures are in place.

Both of these parks are still fairly equal (give or take) in attendance numbers and handle capacity very differently. HS being compact is part of the issue and Genie+/ILL has made it a lot worse. They both suffer with lack of rides and yet USF feels less claustrophobic in comparison. I also think the fact that Universal has never had a park reservation system certainly helped bumped up attendance. I've seen a ton of people on here and elsewhere say they went there instead due to no park reservations being required.

Also didn't know that 2021 numbers weren't released yet. I saw some estimates floating around but I'll take them with a grain of salt going forward.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

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You cannot use old data for current situation. Literally means nothing to speak of the past.

Even 2020 will get skewed because the pandemic hit.

I used to look at those numbers but they don't mean anything in a world where a park determines their own attendance. When you're using how popular a park is, when you're using how much crowds a park get, olden days made sense. It no longer does. Gotta move past them IMO. I think you can compare Universal to Universal numbers 2021 and beyond as that was without heavy skews like shutdowns or capacity restrictions (IIRC there weren't any for the whole year of 2021 and beyond) but you can't compare WDW to Universal any longer.

I do think there's a place to compare gains and losses but the world as we knew it doesn't exist anymore. Using 2018 and 2019 data points just isn't going to work.

 

[Smugpugmug]

You cannot use old data for current situation. Literally means nothing to speak of the past.

Even 2020 will get skewed because the pandemic hit.

I used to look at those numbers but they don't mean anything in a world where a park determines their own attendance. When you're using how popular a park is, when you're using how much crowds a park get, olden days made sense. It no longer does. Gotta move past them IMO.

I do think there's a place to compare gains and losses but the world as we knew it doesn't exist anymore. Using 2018 and 2019 data points just isn't going to work.

This is very true. I was the one that brought it up first and it was just to show that those two parks have a similar attendance number and handle crowds differently. Who knows how Universal and Disney controls attendance nowadays.

 

[tjkraz]

I also think the fact that Universal has never had a park reservation system certainly helped bumped up attendance. I've seen a ton of people on here and elsewhere say they went there instead due to no park reservations being required.

Also didn't know that 2021 numbers weren't released yet. I saw some estimates floating around but I'll take them with a grain of salt going forward.

According to AECOM’s 2020 numbers, US beat HS by about 200k guests and Epcot by 50k. Of course, US reopened sooner and seemed to position themselves as the anti-Disney when it came to many safety protocols. We visited in December 2020, which was pre-vaccine. Agree, I don’t recall there being any sort of Park Pass limiting system. Social distancing was much less enforced. They didn’t have plexiglass barriers in queues and weren’t skipping seats in ride vehicles. In the HP land, I specifically remember crowds being elbow-to-elbow. In that time frame, it was about 20% reassuring and 80% terrifying. I also remember US having touch screen Freeform coke machines available to guests as Disney staffed their self-service beverage stations with Cast Members. They routinely dropped their mask mandates sooner than Disney, though I don’t believe that happened until 2021.

Not sure what to make of the fact that with Universal parks being so much more accessible, reopening 6 weeks earlier, they still trailed two Disney parks in attendance and narrowly beat the other 2.

EDIT: Little more info. Universal didn’t use any form of Park Pass but did simply close their gates on days when attendance exceeded capacity. Search for info on Labor Day weekend 2020. Pretty quickly I found comments from people who waited 90 minutes to park, others who paid for tickets and couldn’t get in or were barely able to ride anything.

You cannot use old data for current situation. Literally means nothing to speak of the past.

Even 2020 will get skewed because the pandemic hit.

I used to look at those numbers but they don't mean anything in a world where a park determines their own attendance. When you're using how popular a park is, when you're using how much crowds a park get, olden days made sense. It no longer does. Gotta move past them IMO. I think you can compare Universal to Universal numbers 2021 and beyond as that was without heavy skews like shutdowns or capacity restrictions (IIRC there weren't any for the whole year of 2021 and beyond) but you can't compare WDW to Universal any longer.

I do think there's a place to compare gains and losses but the world as we knew it doesn't exist anymore. Using 2018 and 2019 data points just isn't going to work.

I don’t disagree with any of that. Was simply responding to the inference that US attendance typically exceeds the Disney parks. It hasn’t, but that may change going forward for a variety of reasons.

 

[lowlight]

I was there a couple weeks ago. If that's lighter than you were expecting at the parks, I'd hate to see what you were expecting!

I've never seen the pools more crowded. Possibly because of the AP mess. People are stretching out tickets, or maybe not even going because tickets are so expensive and there is no sign of APs in the future.

If there are incentives, which I don't see happening soon, I think it would be opening some AP purchases for a minute.

I'd imagine there are a few reasons we aren't seeing a tremendous drop off in Disney attendance just yet despite a cratering economy, but the pain is coming, it's unavoidable, and nothing about Disney is special enough to make them immune to it.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Was simply responding to the inference that US attendance typically exceeds the Disney parks. It hasn’t, but that may change going forward for a variety of reasons.

They said "has" which I infer to mean present-tense. The follow up comment was to say 2020 and 2021. That's just how I read it but that may not have been the actual meaning but I can understand what you mean now.

seemed to position themselves as the anti-Disney when it came to many safety protocols.

I don't think that's a fair comment. It isn't as if Universal didn't have anything. They had masks then let that go then brought that back then let it go just like Disney. It's just weird to even think that Universal was using some sort of flex here as a direct comparison to their competitor. Oh they do a lot of playfulness against Disney in general and they absolutely do poke fun at the park reservation system but I don't think the corporation was like "we have to be opposite of Disney covid health-conscious-wise". Various places did things differently. We know for as many anti-covid protocol people there are there's others that are the opposite. However, that's all straying into the no-no covid land

According to AECOM’s 2020 numbers, US beat HS by about 200k guests and Epcot by 50k.

Not sure what to make of the fact that with Universal parks being so much more accessible, they still trailed two Disney parks in attendance and narrowly beat the other 2.

IMO If you're insistent on looking at those numbers to discuss popularity/guest interest your best bet to compare the two isn't to look at them like that. It's to look at 2019 to 2020 numbers although with the huge obvious caveats in place.

If using the PP's comparison of just the Studios
in 2019 the attendance difference between it and DHS was 561,000.
in 2020 the attendance difference between it and Epcot was 1,522,000.

in 2020 the attendance difference between DHS and the Studios was 233,000 with the Studios having that many more than DHS
in 2020 the attendance difference between it and Epcot was 136,000

The gap narrowed considerably between the attendance meaning USO made high gains on WDW and surpassed them in DHS (just looking at Epcot and DHS and the Studios). I mean for reals if looking at those numbers you'd wonder what the heck happened with Epcot that it was 1.5 million people difference and now was a measly 136K difference. You do have a June 5th 2020 reopen date for USO vs a July 11th 2020 reopening date for WDW. But WDW throttles how many they want in the parks, Universal does not. In the past Disney was all about those park attendance records but throttling park attendance appears to override that.

There's absolutely a lot going into that although I doubt a month more is really going to make that big of a difference as at that time many people were still under heavy restrictions and travel was very little, covid restrictions maybe but maybe not as much as we think, the hassle of Disney? Well they did have park reservations but they were standby from July 2020 until mid-October 2021 and some were staying away from WDW because they lacked FPs (as well as APs). I could hypnotize that WDW lost fans and I do think there is that as a valid point to discuss. But there is that point to be had that Disney is controlling the numbers.

Don't know about 2021 to 2020 numbers but like I said it's just really hard to compare them now. WDW doesn't operate like they did in the past which directly influences their attendance numbers so it's going to be really hard to compare them now. I think we'll have a similar train of thought when Epic Universe opens up...will that pull attendance away from the existing two parks or will those gain or stay similar because of increased interest in Universal, either way it will change how one talks about park attendance numbers.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

EDIT: Little more info. Universal didn’t use any form of Park Pass but did simply close their gates on days when attendance exceeded capacity. Search for info on Labor Day weekend 2020. Pretty quickly I found comments from people who waited 90 minutes to park, others who paid for tickets and couldn’t get in or were barely able to ride anything.

As far as we know Universal uses fire marshall-style stuff (or similar type capacity restriction). They don't arbitrarily decide now is the amount of people they want to have in the parks, as far we know. Disney however does via their park reservation system.

No one was saying Universal is unlimited attendance, just that the old way of reaching capacity for WDW is different than it was before. In the past WDW did phased closures when they were getting closer but they could then shut it off completely such that an ADR or FP would not gain you any admittance most times the shut off was just for a few hours before guests were then able to be let in again. An ADR doesn't get you into a park you want these days should the park reservation be full and Disney makes you very aware of that.

 

[Smugpugmug]

Don't about 2021 to 2020 numbers but like I said it's just really hard to compare them now. WDW doesn't operate like they did in the past which directly influences their attendance numbers so it's going to be really hard to compare them now. I think we'll have a similar train of thought when Epic Universe opens up...will that pull attendance away from the existing two parks or will those gain or stay similar because of increased interest in Universal, either way it will change how one talks about park attendance numbers.

I agree with everything you said. I didn't mean to start a debate or derail the thread from morning access for APs lol This last paragraph is something I thought about when replying to the other poster. I think when Epic opens, the Studios park will suffer due to the issue I stated before. People will still go to Islands for Hagrid's and Velocicoaster but what shiny, new ride does Studios have to attract guests? In terms of Universal vs Disney, I think Universal numbers will spike a little bit as with Disney's park reservations, Universal is the "less annoying" resort to visit right now. No need to reserve anything except Cowfish and Toothsome if you want to dine there. Also if I'm being honest they have better AP perks right now.

Going back to Disney and park reservations, I think they're annoying for last minute planning but I can see where others are coming from in terms of them being in place. I can't imagine how bad the wait times at HS would be if it was a free for all like it was pre pandemic. I still remember Toy Story Mania being a 2 hour wait back in 2019.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

There’s also a difference between what is legal and good business practice.

People spend thousands on tickets, thousands on a room, and bring thousands more for food and extras, even just a party of 3 or 4 people. They show up with their $700 each 5-day hoppers after reserving their parks last month. 5-day tickets technically give 8 days to use them. What happens in this not untypical scenario:

Fly in Sunday (fly out next Sunday) and have 5 parks reserved for Mon-Fri. Staying at CBR for 7 nights. On Wed one of the kids lightly twisted their ankle, weather report says basically monsoon all day Thursday. You’d LOVE to cancel Thursday and visit a park Saturday instead. Nope! There’s no availability, even though date priced tickets covers the dates in question and the whole trip is onsite booked thru Disney.

I’d be surprised not to see changes in the near future.

They do not need to have park reservations. Universal and every other park ditched them. They are using park reservations to minimize staffing and maximize profits, guest experience be damned.

 

[Sandisw]

They do not need to have park reservations. Universal and every other park ditched them. They are using park reservations to minimize staffing and maximize profits, guest experience be damned.

The problem is not everyone hates them. I actually don’t.

I have been to MK in wall to wall people and it was not fun. We didn’t stay and did one ride. It was a wasted park day for our family of 5.

We even hopped to Epcot that day and by the time we got there, it too was crowded

If I saw a park was filled, I don’t want to be there. We actually changed our plans last June when we saw MK was sold out the day we planned to go but not the next.. we adjusted so we had at least a chance to be there when it wasn’t sold out.

I think it would be worse for none and then they limit you that day at the gate.

I would much rather have it capped with fewer guests so I can actually do things.

Now, I certainly wouldn’t mind to see park hopping moved up to noon, but we make it work.

 

[MillauFr]

They really are trying to box in AP holders.

They need to scrap annual passes.

 

[Marionnette]

They need to scrap annual passes.

I would like to read your rationale for that.

I think you will see a lot more DVC contracts on the resale market if APs are discontinued. As it is, there are numerous reports of crowding at resort pools and QS locations because members are doing resort-only trips or greatly reducing their park time due to the lack of APs.

 

[Madame]

I would like to read your rationale for that.

I think you will see a lot more DVC contracts on the resale market if APs are discontinued. As it is, there are numerous reports of crowding at resort pools and QS locations because members are doing resort-only trips or greatly reducing their park time due to the lack of APs.

There were some on this board questioning the importance of APs to DVC owners several months ago. From what I’ve seen here and on FB groups it’s the #1 sales tool and they are *still* using it to sell contracts. At what point is that false advertising ?? Yes we know perks are not guaranteed, but why mention something that is literally unavailable.

Lots of members on FB groups using DVC as a hole base with USO APs this year or doing a resort only stay and eating etc off property. I guess WDW is so flush that they don’t need AP money…. For now…..

 

[BeachClub2014]

They need to scrap annual passes.

Maybe, although I would hate to see that happen.

I would think that those who are supporters of the park reservation system as an enhancement to the guest experience would also support this move. If, as has been said by folks here, Disney implemented the reservation system to reduce crowding and shorten lines, then certainly having no AP's would support their effort and result in fewer people crowding the parks and fewer people to compete with for reservations.

And, if they did permanently scrap annual passes, it would be a bitter pill to swallow.

 

[HashberryOTG]

If, as has been said by folks here, Disney implemented the reservation system to reduce crowding and shorten lines,

People complain about parks being unavailable now, imagine how busy they would be if they pulled the reservation system. They'd be available, but no one would actually want to be there (we know they'd go anyways tho, and complain about how miserable it is).

 

[whiteness]

And, if they did permanently scrap annual passes, it would be a bitter pill to swallow.

There's still Universal.

Given that Disney is (apparently) going to offer a category of reservations intended for Passholders, I doubt that's going to happen any time soon. At least in Orlando.

However, they still haven't made any announcements about Magic Key renewals. If I were in California, I'd be more concerned about Disney's plans, there.

 

[RoseGold]

It’s 8:15 and HS officially opens in 15 minutes, so it’s early time right now. Slinky, ROTR, and MMRR are all closed, and ToT is still half closed for construction, I think.

This is why this park needs reservations. There are going to be a lot of people going back to the pool if they walk into that.

Edit: 8:30 MMRR is back up, but not slinky or ROTR. Whew. That is going to be a crowded morning.

 

[whiteness]

It’s 8:15 and HS officially opens in 15 minutes, so it’s early time right now. Slinky, ROTR, and MMRR are all closed, and ToT is still half closed for construction, I think.

This is why this park needs reservations. There are going to be a lot of people going back to the pool if they walk into that.

I wonder if Disney could send folks invitations to change their reservations to an alternative park if they project crowding? Most folks would decline, but some might actually be grateful for the tip.

Perhaps Disney could offer a single ride Fastpass (or whatever it's called now) as an incentive to the first XX people that agreed?