WDW and DL Pirates to change Redhead scene

[OSUZorba]

I guess I'm dense. I always thought the women were just hookers at a brothel, not being sold into slavery.

Either way pirates are terrible people, even recently they've killed many people, kidnapped and held hostage thousands, gotten hundreds of millions in ransom, etc. Maybe it's time we stop celebrating them altogether and just bulldoze the ride. That way no one could be offended.

Or we could lighten up a bit, learn to find humor in things meant to be humorous, and use it as a conversation starter if need be. Hiding issues is very counter productive to correcting them. And it isn't like the ride make the pirates out to be great people and this is a good thing they are doing, it is showing they are terrible people and this is one of the terrible things they are doing.

At the end of the day I don't really care much if they change the scene, but the consent push to whitewash history and art is counterproductive to progress/understanding in many ways.

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

People are really getting worked up they can't laugh at a sex trafficking scene any more. I didn't like the scene in the attraction I still rode it and enjoyed it, but I think Disney making this change is for the best. No PC committee was begging Disney to change the attraction Disney decided that on their own. You don't like it don't ride or go to Disney. I didn't think other scenes in rides were particularly offensive. As I got older I was also shocked that Disney had this scene in their attractions and I didn't really have that shock for any other rides. I don't know why. But to claim this ride should be kept for historical purposes and that it's a lesson in history is just ridiculous. The ride isn't educating anyone.

Really? To you that is part of an adult discussion?

My comment about discussing this with your children was a rhetorical question meant to prove in fact no one (maybe very few people) have an educated discussion about the sex trafficking still occurring in today's world. Again, by many people even claiming this is something we need to learn from because it happened in the past just shows people do not even realize that this is still happening. I'm fine with art depicting offensive things, this ride is not merely art it is supposed to be a funny scene and I don't see the humor in it.

You may be right. But I will have to say, that our family just discussed the issue of sex trafficking, last night. At dinner. It is probably one of a dozen discussions we have had on it. Now, my "child" is older. And he understands the implications of sex trafficking. So, I can have an adult discussion with him.

But many have younger children, and of course, they would only bring it up if the child was old enough to understand the implications.

When I mentioned that they were changing this scene he said, "I have no words."

 

[HopperFan]

Wait...how is there not a Universal understanding of the symbolism? I am genuinely confused here. It's a symbol of the old south, which seceded from Union over slavery. I mean, many people argue that it was over property rights, but the property that the south was talking about happened to be human beings. And even after the war, when the south was still arguing about state rights- the rights they wanted usually were things like the right to not prosecute lynchings, or the right to bar their black citizens from political activities.

I can look at that flag and think country music or Dukes of Hazard but I can't ignore the historical context of it. There is no way to overlook that association. There's a reason people protest it's display, and there's a reason that New Orleans removed its confederate hero statues. It's an ugly symbol of an extremely ugly chapter of US history.

It would be like arguing that that the swastika isn't associated with Nazi Germany. That it can have a totally different meaning. It existed before Hitler. It didn't have the same connotation. But there's no way that a modern person could look at it and not associate it with the Nazi regime.

There is not a publicly spoken universal understanding of it because everyone will use their own excuse. I live in the midst of it. It is absolutely not a symbol of the old south. We'll have to leave it at that.

 

[dlavender]

It's probably best just to demolish the ride and establish a memorial garden in the memory of the anamatronic women who were held hostage for over 50 years at a pirate auction. Also, we need to remove Dumbo and establish a memorial garden in memory of the elephants that were held captive by the carnival for so long. Same at the Haunted Mansion as it encourages suicide in the stretching room and murder in the atic. Maybe one day soon we will have a memorial garden in front of the remains of each Disney park to commorate what used to be before Iger ran them into the ground with bad IP and PC decisions.

Best take on here.

what if, and I'm just spit-balling here, but what if the change has nothing to do with human trafficking or political correctness. what if Disney just figures they have a cool idea to bring a female pirate character into the ride so they can sell more merch.

Someone else mentioned this as well and it does make sense.

Perhaps they've been looking for ways to get Davie Jones and new characters in the ride, looked for a spot, and this one is a win win since they can also claim its a valiant crusade at the same time.

 

[L_MD]

Not sure if this has been asked, but is it possible that this is why Splash is closed at such a strange time, so that Pirates can be updated in early 2018?

 

[rteetz]

Not sure if this has been asked, but is it possible that this is why Splash is closed at such a strange time, so that Pirates can be updated in early 2018?

I'm thinking the same thing.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

There is not a publicly spoken universal understanding of it because everyone will use their own excuse. I live in the midst of it. It is absolutely not a symbol of the old south. We'll have to leave it at that.

Amen!

 

[OKW Lover]

I'm happy that Disney is not treating its parks as a museum. Walt always wanted his parks to continue to grow and change so that experiences were new.

 

[MommaBerd]

In reference to this scene, I mentioned to my husband the last time we rode, "I wonder how much longer that scene will stay..." It is a bit cringe-y. And I am truly conflicted on this. Having been educated on human trafficking, I see things (like this) from a different perspective. But, it was never my expectation that Disney SHOULD change the scene.

Along those lines, I think it's important to note that we see things through ADULT eyes, not the eyes of children. I imagine very few kids would look at that scene and think, "Wow! That's human trafficking!" And for those who do, then they are the ones with whom you have the conversation about pirates and the way things were...and how this is fantasy, a story - just like Treasure Island is a story. The classic rides, to me, are like illustrations in a book.

And just to add, I NEVER thought the ropes in Splash were "nooses" as someone upthread suggested. I thought they were just simple traps like you see in cartoons. You know - the kind where the target steps in the loop and the trapper yanks it to trap the target. That's why Brer Bear ends up with all his paws tied up.

 

[jlundeen]

My two cents:

From the first time I rode the Pirates ride, I couldn't shake the notion that while it was a fun ride, it is based on a horrible and violent event. When pirates really raided a town, they killed, raped, plundered - that's what pirates did. But I continued to ride the ride every time we went, and saw each of the Pirate movies several times...(maybe Johnny Depp had SOMETHING to do with that!). I still think about the reality of it every time I ride - but I still ride.

I also love Song of the South - one of my favorite childhood movies. I know it's not an actual depiction of the harsh and violent history of Slavery in the South...but I still love the movie.

I guess I feel I can enjoy the "altered" experience, while understanding that reality is something quite different. And I had/have no problem teaching my now adult children and young grandchildren the differences between them.

 

[ucfknight]

I guess I'm dense. I always thought the women were just hookers at a brothel, not being sold into slavery.

Well besides them being tied together with a rope, being held at gunpoint, and standing underneath a giant sign saying "Auction. Take a Wench for a Bride" there are very few clues as to what is actually going on.

 

[bbmassey]

Best take on here.

Someone else mentioned this as well and it does make sense.

Perhaps they've been looking for ways to get Davie Jones and new characters in the ride, looked for a spot, and this one is a win win since they can also claim its a valiant crusade at the same time.

I would not think it is the justification of seeking just to add a female pirate. If the ride is too dark and violent as is, why try to rewrite history and say that female pirates were gentle and thus okay. Simply changing it to auctioning some citizens plundered property is still wrong. Check out the history of Anne Bonny. She and Jack Rackham were awful people as well. Like I said, tear it down and build an ADA friendly, non offensive, politically correct, and morally fair garden.

 

[mickeyfanachey1999]

One part of this that troubles me is that so much has to be changed nowadays because someone is offended. I generally just avoid things that I find distasteful and can't wrap my mind around telling people that they have to think like me.

I wish I could like this 1000 times.

 

[bladiator]

People are really getting worked up they can't laugh at a sex trafficking scene any more. I didn't like the scene in the attraction I still rode it and enjoyed it, but I think Disney making this change is for the best. No PC committee was begging Disney to change the attraction Disney decided that on their own. You don't like it don't ride or go to Disney. I didn't think other scenes in rides were particularly offensive. As I got older I was also shocked that Disney had this scene in their attractions and I didn't really have that shock for any other rides. I don't know why. But to claim this ride should be kept for historical purposes and that it's a lesson in history is just ridiculous. The ride isn't educating anyone. My comment about discussing this with your children was a rhetorical question meant to prove in fact no one (maybe very few people) have an educated discussion about the sex trafficking still occurring in today's world. Again, by many people even claiming this is something we need to learn from because it happened in the past just shows people do not even realize that this is still happening. I'm fine with art depicting offensive things, this ride is not merely art it is supposed to be a funny scene and I don't see the humor in it.

I know I've posted in this thread already and I waited until page 9 or so to get to this, but I'm trying to figure out why people want this to be gone. I mentioned before that there are plenty of "bad" things in rides at WDW (Haunted Mansion I think is on top but I don't see much outcry against that ride). So it can't just be that. Is it the fact that sex trafficking still exists? Would this scene be ok to keep if we knew for a fact that in the past we had absolutely gotten rid of human sex trafficking? Because I see a lot of people in this thread saying that this is something that still goes on and is not in the past and that's why it doesn't belong here. Or is human sex trafficking in a scene not only here, but ANYWHERE in the world (be it a painting, or a movie, or what have you) doesn't belong? OR is it because this is a place that children go, and if it were a ride that only adults went on (or 13 and up with parental guidance) then this scene would be ok to leave in?

As you can see, I have tons of questions because it seems like there are almost all black/white answers in this thread and very few that get beyond "This is Walt's handiwork, keep your hands off" or "Sex trafficking is bad and still exists so you have to remove this".

Any and all comments would be appreciated.

ETA: A reason I hate the change is because an "auction" in the town of things like paintings seems even more ridiculous than the ride originally intended. They are pillaging and looting and drunks, they aren't there to put their shillings down for a Monet.

 

[speedyfishy]

I know I've posted in this thread already and I waited until page 9 or so to get to this, but I'm trying to figure out why people want this to be gone. I mentioned before that there are plenty of "bad" things in rides at WDW (Haunted Mansion I think is on top but I don't see much outcry against that ride). So it can't just be that. Is it the fact that sex trafficking still exists? Would this scene be ok to keep if we knew for a fact that in the past we had absolutely gotten rid of human sex trafficking? Because I see a lot of people in this thread saying that this is something that still goes on and is not in the past and that's why it doesn't belong here. Or is human sex trafficking in a scene not only here, but ANYWHERE in the world (be it a painting, or a movie, or what have you) doesn't belong? OR is it because this is a place that children go, and if it were a ride that only adults went on (or 13 and up with parental guidance) then this scene would be ok to leave in?

As you can see, I have tons of questions because it seems like there are almost all black/white answers in this thread and very few that get beyond "This is Walt's handiwork, keep your hands off" or "Sex trafficking is bad and still exists so you have to remove this".

Any and all comments would be appreciated.

ETA: A reason I hate the change is because an "auction" in the town of things like paintings seems even more ridiculous than the ride originally intended. They are pillaging and looting and drunks, they aren't there to put their shillings down for a Monet.

It's not that I wanted it gone and had strong opinions about it; I'm just happy Disney is getting rid of it. I didn't email them saying how offended I was by the scene in the ride or anything like that. I just agree with disney's decision and see why they are changing the scene. I'm not sure what made this scene different from other offensive things it rides. I don't think for me any of those are things are offensive. And I think Disney obviously agreeed that this scene needed to be changed and not other rides. For me I think it maybe that people would laugh at the women being sold and Disney tried to make it funny. I don't have a problem with scenes showing sex trafficking I just thought this scene in particular made it into a joke to be laughed at. I'm not sure if children understand what's going on in the scene. I don't remember this scene standing out when I was a child at Disney.

 

[jknezek]

I told my wife, more than 10 years ago, that this scene would eventually be removed. People have personal agendas, and eventually those agendas win out over common sense. We call it political correctness, but it really is not. It is one group of people deciding what is right or wrong for everyone else, and enforcing that through censorship.

Let's get this straight - PoTC is art. This is censorship. Censorship is bad, and we are harmed by its presence.

No matter how you or I feel about that scene, we have no right to even suggest that it be removed. We have a right to discuss the scene, or to skip the ride, but we have no right to expect it to be changed. The very thought that we do have this right is what leads to censorship and all of the evil that accompanies it.

ETA - It should be noted, however, that Disney has a right to change their art in whatever way they believe best suits their interests. So, in this case we see self-censorship. I really have no problem with them changing it. I just hate to see the discussion around the "need" to censor it. There was no need.

I do not think you know the definition of censorship. "the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security." Now this is not censorship because it is not suppression or prohibition. No one is telling Disney they HAVE to do this. Disney is choosing to do this. That is quite a major distinction. No one has told people we can't make art about human trafficking or any art about human trafficking needs to be removed, Disney has just decided this piece of an attraction has no place in their family centered theme park. You can disagree, you can be sentimental, you can whine and cry about it being PC, but you can't claim censorship because it is not being forced upon Disney.

So let's all take our hyperbole and hysteria and put it away. Disney is choosing to do this. They believe they have good reason given the context of Disney parks, and Magic Kingdom in particular, as all-age family entertainment. Or perhaps they just think a new scene will improve the ride. It doesn't matter, but it's not censorship.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

So now that I have had a night to sleep on this I think I have a slightly altered take

I am still sad to see something that the imagineers created and worry about art being censored. I still don't feel that it *has* to change, but at the same time why does it *have* to stay other than for nostalgia reasons?

Does the ride need a scene of a bride auction? Or is it fine without it?

And while I can separate a ride with robots from real life, is that ok? And clearly not everyone does .... if there is even a 1% chance someone could view this as Disney tacitly approving sex trafficking (or at least minimizing the significance of it) is it best to change it?

One last though, if instead of women it was people of color from the Caribbean being sold (which Pirates also did) would that be ok? and if not, why is one form of slavery ok and another isn't?

Again, I don't necessarily think it needs to change and it is certainly ok to be sad upon hearing the news, but I guess I am at the point of trying to understand why it needs to stay

 

[tlmadden73]

This is obviously to take out an "offensive" scene. Sure, Sure this is obviously PC .. and I'm okay with it. The ride is meant to be entertaining, not historically accurate.
And I am okay in adding in the Pirates movie characters. There are a lot of rides that have been changed over the years (or gone altogether). Nothing can last forever.

What gets me is they target something like this and leave other things in the parks (in less popular attractions).

My wife and I were shocked when we watched Country Bears for the first time in a long time with my kids (4yo and 8mo). Sexist comments, a song about shooting an disobedient child, a song about BLOOD on the saddle. I mean .. we weren't offended, I laughed like I did decades ago, but we looked at each other when we knew we would have to explain to my 4yo why the big bear was singing a song about a puddle of blood.

I know you can't shelter your child from the world totally, but having conversations about bloody songs or why those women were lined up to be sold doesn't need to happen while on vacation!

What also gets me is someone gets their knickers in a bunch over something like this but some of these same executives are okay with the commercials that air on TV during seemingly "family" shows. We've stopped watching Live TV with our children around (unless it is Disney Junior) due to commercials of graphic violence or horror (for movies) that air all over the TV.

 

[bladiator]

It's not that I wanted it gone and had strong opinions about it; I'm just happy Disney is getting rid of it. I didn't email them saying how offended I was by the scene in the ride or anything like that. I just agree with disney's decision and see why they are changing the scene. I'm not sure what made this scene different from other offensive things it rides. I don't think for me any of those are things are offensive. And I think Disney obviously agreeed that this scene needed to be changed and not other rides. For me I think it maybe that people would laugh at the women being sold and Disney tried to make it funny. I don't have a problem with scenes showing sex trafficking I just thought this scene in particular made it into a joke to be laughed at. I'm not sure if children understand what's going on in the scene. I don't remember this scene standing out when I was a child at Disney.

Sorry, I didn't say that you specifically said it, but I just used your post to springboard into my comments.

To go back to one of my original questions, would this be ok to leave in if 12 and under couldn't ride it? Because if you have watched a "comedy" any time recently, they'll make fun of this or any other despicable thing as often as they can get a cheap laugh. And most times, the rauchier the better.

 

[rteetz]

I don't have anymore to add at the moment but I applaud everyone for having a good discussion for the most part and for not having things go out of hand. It makes my job a lot easier. Thank you.