VGF2 or RIV direct

[sethschroeder]

It’s a bad, divisive policy.

I can agree bad but honestly a vast majority of DVC members either have no clue about it or do not care at the current time.

Everyone throws out wild numbers but I will always reference back to likely less than 20% of a resort flipping to resale over a 20 year period. This board simply has a unbalanced number of resale owners/buyers/sellers on it vs the larger DVC community. I have had the discussion elsewhere recently and the number of resale points doesn't really come close to hitting a 7-8 years average ownership that people try to push.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

As long as the fee goes to RIV MFs it would selfishly be a positive. Overall though it would be a negative and really cheapen the product.

It's ambiguous of course as I recall and added to protect themselves if the change didn't work and I'd guess it would go to the developer.

 

[Bjaiken77]

I can agree bad but honestly a vast majority of DVC members either have no clue about it or do not care at the current time.

Everyone throws out wild numbers but I will always reference back to likely less than 20% of a resort flipping to resale over a 20 year period. This board simply has a unbalanced number of resale owners/buyers/sellers on it vs the larger DVC community. I have had the discussion elsewhere recently and the number of resale points doesn't really come close to hitting a 7-8 years average ownership that people try to push.

I don’t care from much other than an equity point of view. Plus, I’m tired of the different layers: white card vs blue card, direct points vs resale, restricted points vs non restricted points. It’s not good for the membership, as a whole.

I think more people will start complaining in a few years when they go to sell. Again, I plan to hold until the end of the deed. But I’m tired of Disney creating all these divisive, sub grouping policies. And you’re right - they won’t do anything until people loudly complain.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

That’s exactly right!!! They can keep adding points after RIV into the system, but those points are free and clear without restrictions. That’s not right. I don’t care whether they go into an existing condo association or not. They are new points entering the system after an established restriction.

Whats next? Backing up blue card restrictions to what they were when the original hotel (VGF) went on sale? No way! Once a restriction goes into place, it needs to be applied to all points entering the system, and all new member contracts, going forward.

There is no promise of DVD protecting your purchase at RIV nor actually any DVC owners purchase. They are a timeshare developer and will do what they feel is appropriate for them although there are things that they need to or should follow but what you suggest isn't one of them. The actual inequity came when DVD/DVC added Riviera to the system but under different rules while the POS stated that new resorts needed to be similar to the existing to join. A VGF addition with the same restrictions as the existing would be appropriate and follow the POS.

 

[Bjaiken77]

There is no promise of DVD protecting your purchase at RIV nor actually any DVC owners purchase. They are a timeshare developer and will do what they feel is appropriate for them although there are things that they need to or should follow but what you suggest isn't one of them. The actual inequity came when DVD/DVC added Riviera to the system but under different rules while the POS stated that new resorts needed to be similar to the existing to join. A VGF addition with the same restrictions as the existing would be appropriate and follow the POS.

They may have no legal obligation, but I feel like they take extreme liberty with the fact that they are Disney and there will always be someone in line to take my place. I’m under no illusion that they will collapse if they screw their membership. However, in most other industries, there is a price to be paid for not listening to the desires of your customers or membership. Disney is in the business of selling experiences, and if they keep providing bad experiences that drive people out, even Disney will eventually encounter a backlash that will affect the bottom line they seem so concerned about.

 

[Sandisw]

Can see the quick and easy hotel to dvc conversion become the new trend. Makes no sense to restrict Rivera while allowing every other resort resale access to these new gfv units. Wilderness lodge could sell new inventory as Ccv. Contemporary can add to BLT.....Poly can convert another long house or so.....

All those new direct points at gfv get to book Rivera. All the current points that qualify direct or resale grandfathered get to book Rivera. But Rivera is the sole resale that can’t book anything other than Rivera?

Additional points into a one sided system makes Rivera even harder to book at 7 months. Rivera resale AND direct owners will have a really tough time booking. I honestly don’t think dvd will mess up Rivera like that. Rivera as the only outlier with severe restrictions while allowing floods of new inventory to continue to enter Rivera limited inventory would be really messed up!

Actually, the only difference that RIV owners will have to deal with is to be sure that they book at 11 months, or within home resort priority, I don't see that though as much different than a place like VGF or CCV.

The only real drawback is for resale RIV points for any owner who waits to book their trip, or has to make changes. But, I don't think that aspect impacts initial bookings. Also, remember, right now a LOT more resale points are being sold that leave RIV out for trading, then resale RIV points being sold. So, I think that imbalance helps all RIV owners.

Or course, I will now have both restricted and unrestricted points to use at RIV, so it will be interesting to see how things look moving forward! The good news is that they are in different memberships which gives me flexibility!

 

[Sandisw]

I can agree bad but honestly a vast majority of DVC members either have no clue about it or do not care at the current time.

Everyone throws out wild numbers but I will always reference back to likely less than 20% of a resort flipping to resale over a 20 year period. This board simply has a unbalanced number of resale owners/buyers/sellers on it vs the larger DVC community. I have had the discussion elsewhere recently and the number of resale points doesn't really come close to hitting a 7-8 years average ownership that people try to push.

And to add, we also have to remember that a contract only flips once to resale. So, all the resale contracts that sell don't necessarily change the percentage of resale to direct balance. I just sold BLT contract, but I bought it resale, so that action made no difference in what percentage of owners are resale vs. direct at that resort. It simply changed who is a resale owner.

The only real impact is when original owners sell their contracts.

 

[Sandisw]

They may have no legal obligation, but I feel like they take extreme liberty with the fact that they are Disney and there will always be someone in line to take my place. I’m under no illusion that they will collapse if they screw their membership. However, in most other industries, there is a price to be paid for not listening to the desires of your customers or membership. Disney is in the business of selling experiences, and if they keep providing bad experiences that drive people out, even Disney will eventually encounter a backlash that will affect the bottom line they seem so concerned about.

And, if the buying public stops buying DVC points from the developer, they will make the change. As long as they can sell points...and they will always be able to...they will do what is best for them.

Current owners have no real impact, IMO, on what DVD does for the purposes of selling new points. As I already mentioned, I think COVID had a big big impact on the current decision because had Reflections still been in the works, we would not be getting this new addition to VGF, and we would see a new resort with the restrictions they wanted to keep in place.

I personally believe that VGF addition to the same association was decided for ease and the best solution to help with future development, given what happened.

 

[Bjaiken77]

And, if the buying public stops buying DVC points from the developer, they will make the change. As long as they can sell points...and they will always be able to...they will do what is best for them

This point is absolutely true and I acknowledge it. They have a desirable enough product that they know someone will always buy it. It allows them not to do the right thing by the membership because, as you said, we really have no recourse. I find that kind of sad, though. In other words, they don’t have to do what they should do because they are too big and powerful to fail.

I don’t want to root for their next project to be a commercial failure, but it would cause them to look closer at their arbitrary rules.

 

[Littlelulu01]

I can agree bad but honestly a vast majority of DVC members either have no clue about it or do not care at the current time.

Everyone throws out wild numbers but I will always reference back to likely less than 20% of a resort flipping to resale over a 20 year period. This board simply has a unbalanced number of resale owners/buyers/sellers on it vs the larger DVC community. I have had the discussion elsewhere recently and the number of resale points doesn't really come close to hitting a 7-8 years average ownership that people try to push.

Even if it’s only a 20% flip that still creates a pretty awful booking issue at Rivera. 35% can be fixed weeks. 20% resale owners will only be able to book at Rivera. There’s only so many studios yet considerable demand for them, and any direct resort plus all grandfathered 100 million or so points are able to book Rivera at 7 months. Additional points added into the original dvc 1 group will compound the booking issue. Had I not just purchased Rivera, I’d be waiting to hear what the deal is with the additional gfv points prior to any Rivera purchase for sure!

 

[Bjaiken77]

Obviously, the 11 month advantage at RIV is not harmed by the introduction of new VGF points. My bigger concern is resale purchasers who have no place else to book but RIV. Maybe they would have gone elsewhere but they can’t. However, I assume Disney considered that in their original point allocation.

 

[Sandisw]

This point is absolutely true and I acknowledge it. They have a desirable enough product that they know someone will always buy it. It allows them not to do the right thing by the membership because, as you said, we really have no recourse. I find that kind of sad, though. In other words, they don’t have to do what they should do because they are too big and powerful to fail.

I don’t want to root for their next project to be a commercial failure, but it would cause them to look closer at their arbitrary rules.

I think my point though is that DVD is about selling it and I don’t see that they have am obligation to use as membership.

DVCMC is the one who is responsible for making sure our membership is a good one or meets the terms we all purchased under when we bought.

Maybe I am in the minority but I really am not bothered by what DVD does for selling more resorts, or expanding others.

I am actually happy to see they are expanding VGF because I really hope ic an use my current SSR points at 7 months to get in there more often!

 

[Sandisw]

Even if it’s only a 20% flip that still creates a pretty awful booking issue at Rivera. 35% can be fixed weeks. 20% resale owners will only be able to book at Rivera. There’s only so many studios yet considerable demand for them, and any direct resort plus all grandfathered 100 million or so points are able to book Rivera at 7 months. Additional points added into the original dvc 1 group will compound the booking issue. Had I not just purchased Rivera, I’d be waiting to hear what the deal is with the additional gfv points prior to any Rivera purchase for sure!

But how does that really impact home resort advantage bookings? 7 month, yes, but resale points book the same as direct at that resort,

Not sure it’s much different than the BWV owners trying for SV or AKV trying for CL.

 

[Nabas]

But how does that really impact home resort advantage bookings? 7 month, yes, but resale points book the same as direct at that resort,

Not sure it’s much different than the BWV owners trying for SV or AKV trying for CL.

One of the reasons resorts such as VGF, BCV, or PVB become available to other DVC members is because those DVC members book at other resorts.

But if 20% of RIV owners can only book at RIV, then it will make booking RIV that much harder for RIV members because that 20% won't be trying to stay elsewhere.

The thing is, it will be years (decades?) before we see this effect since DVC members tend not to sell for many years.

 

[tidefan]

There is no promise of DVD protecting your purchase at RIV nor actually any DVC owners purchase. They are a timeshare developer and will do what they feel is appropriate for them although there are things that they need to or should follow but what you suggest isn't one of them. The actual inequity came when DVD/DVC added Riviera to the system but under different rules while the POS stated that new resorts needed to be similar to the existing to join. A VGF addition with the same restrictions as the existing would be appropriate and follow the POS.

To do that, though, it would have been much cleaner to have a separate Condo Association.

 

[DonMacGregor]

One of the reasons resorts such as VGF, BCV, or PVB become available to other DVC members is because those DVC members book at other resorts.

But if 20% of RIV owners can only book at RIV, then it will make booking RIV that much harder for RIV members because that 20% won't be trying to stay elsewhere.

The thing is, it will be years (decades?) before we see this effect since DVC members tend not to sell for many years.

So, what you're saying is you have (hypothetically) 100 owners at RIV. 50 of them are original direct owner, and 50 are resale.

You have the same scenario at BLT, 50 direct and 50 resale.

In the BLT scenario, some percentage of the 50 direct owners may decide to stay elsewhare, and some percentage of the resale owners may decide to do so too, regardless of booking window.

At RIV, while the direct owners MAY chose to book elsewhere, those 50 resale owners will ALWAYS have to book at RIV, and it's that percentage of resale wowners who are tied to RIV for life that may affect availability.

 

[Nabas]

So, what you're saying is you have (hypothetically) 100 owners at RIV. 50 of them are original direct owner, and 50 are resale.

You have the same scenario at BLT, 50 direct and 50 resale.

In the BLT scenario, some percentage of the 50 direct owners may decide to stay elsewhere, and some percentage of the resale owners may decide to do so too, regardless of booking window.

At RIV, while the direct owners MAY chose to book elsewhere, those 50 resale owners will ALWAYS have to book at RIV, and it's that percentage of resale owners who are tied to RIV for life that may affect availability.

Yes.

And I'm also saying it will be years or decades before we see this effect.

For the sake of discussion, let's assume that 1% of direct RIV buyers sell every year. This means:

In one year, 99% can stay where ever they want at 7 months.

In two years, 98% can stay where ever they want at 7 months.

etc.

It will be years or decades before direct RIV buyers start to see this effect.

 

[Bjaiken77]

I am actually happy to see they are expanding VGF because I really hope ic an use my current SSR points at 7 months to get in there more often!

I hear you, and this part is good. I had previously wanted to buy into VGF badly in order (even a small add-on) simply so I had an opportunity to stay there. That chance has increased exponentially with the add-on. Actually, my opportunity to stay in the MK area as a non-MK resort owner also went up. Both of those would be hurt by lumping it in with RIV restrictions, as I have resale SSR points I would like to spend at VGF1 and VGF2.

I just don’t like rule manipulating for the sake of convenience or financial gain. I’m fine with the sales pitch everyone got on RIV - moving forward we are going to have resale restrictions. To come back in and make an exception that reverses their justification for that restriction bothers me.

I’ve been around Disney my entire life. None of this surprises me. That doesn’t mean I have to agree with it.

 

[Bjaiken77]

Yes.

And I'm also saying it will be years or decades before we see this effect.

For the sake of discussion, let's assume that 1% of direct RIV buyers sell every year. This means:

In one year, 99% can stay where ever they want at 7 months.

In two years, 98% can stay where ever they want at 7 months.

etc.

It will be years or decades before direct RIV buyers start to see this effect.

Agree 100%. As I said, I just hope Disney accounted for this in their original allocation.

 

[Sandisw]

I hear you, and this part is good. I had previously wanted to buy into VGF badly in order (even a small add-on) simply so I had an opportunity to stay there. That chance has increased exponentially with the add-on. Actually, my opportunity to stay in the MK area as a non-MK resort owner also went up. Both of those would be hurt by lumping it in with RIV restrictions, as I have resale SSR points I would like to spend at VGF1 and VGF2.

I just don’t like rule manipulating for the sake of convenience or financial gain. I’m fine with the sales pitch everyone got on RIV - moving forward we are going to have resale restrictions. To come back in and make an exception that reverses their justification for that restriction bothers me.

I’ve been around Disney my entire life. None of this surprises me. That doesn’t mean I have to agree with it.

Were you told moving forward that all resorts would have them? My discussions with two different guides when considering RIV direct never indicated it was the way of the future.

Matter of fact, it wasn’t brought up as part of our discussion.