United Airlines Forces Man off of oversold flight

[bcla]

Now the two other officers have been placed on leave, and all of the passengers on the flight are getting a full refund.

http://wgntv.com/2017/04/12/2-addit...ced-on-leave-in-united-passenger-controversy/

"CHICAGO — Fallout continues from the violent removal of a passenger from a United flight earlier this week.

Two additional Chicago Dept of Aviation officers have been placed on leave.

The Chicago Dept of Aviation released a statement saying:

The Chicago Department of Aviation (CDA) continues reviewing the details surrounding the incident. As part of our review, two additional officers have been placed on administrative leave until further notice. The employees ‘ collective bargaining agreement prohibits the CDA from releasing their names at this time.

Additionally, all passengers aboard that flight will get a full refund."

I didn't see any physical action that should get them in trouble, but maybe the dept has a policy about reporting potential violations of procedures.

I've heard of a police lieutenant who was dropped a rank to sergeant. An officer he was supervising covered his name with tape, when state law requires uniformed peace officers to display a name and/or badge number. He told him to remove the tape, but didn't report it.

 

[DisBabe94]

No way this becomes as big a story if he walks off the plane under his own power or even if airport police pull him out using force but without injury.

The reason why this has become so big is that the extraction from the plane was botched. I've seen someone removed from a seat before. The police got him out of his seat and on his feet before pulling him out. They did slap cuffs on him after he pushed them, but otherwise it appeared that they did everything possible to minimize injury given the circumstances.

Yeah you're right it wouldn't be a story at all! I think this story is making a lot of people realize how few rights they really have when flying. Like, people knew that they could be denied access to a flight but now they are actually pissed about it. People are fed up with the way airlines have been treating passengers and this is a finishing blow. There are cries for Passenger Protection reform. I am glad this story has blown up this way if this is what it takes for there to be a serious change in either the regulations protecting passengers or the airline's policies.

 

[mom2rtk]

Yeah. I can definitely see, if people don't fly much, being outraged to find out airlines CAN do this to you. I've learned that airlines can do a lot of things to you with very little explanation. It's super frustrating when they delay your flight without telling you exactly why.

Terms and conditions apply to everything though. Your Netflix account, your Facebook profile, your credit card, Disneyworld tickets. And most people have NO CLUE what the fine print says.

It doesn't matter what the fine print says if you get butchered in the court of public opinion.

 

[mummabear]

I absolutely love this woman's article. Something good to think about.

https://thepilotwifelife.wordpress....thoughts-from-a-pilot-wife-about-flight-3411/

So this women's take is to do ANYTHING the flight crew tells her and complain later-so if the flight crew told her to remove her pants she would comply?

 

[Westcoastwild]

But what other industry is the business taking away the goods or service against your wishes?

Here in NZ businesses are responsible for covering consequential loss, in an example like this, that could be 1 days salary if they make you miss work.

Yes legally United were allegeadly entitled to do what they did (it seems there is conflicting legal opionions on this based on the fact he had already boarded)
But the question is are people okay with that? Or do they want to push for change?
Are people happy with airlines Charing them high change fees, but offering low compensation when they bump you, are people happy with airlines selling tickets that have a price factor depending on the time, date and number of stops but then contracting out of having to provide any of those things. Are people happy with airlines intentionally overselling their planes?
Are people happy with an industry that they bailed out, treating their customers like they are nothing?

They aren't really taking away the service though. You're still getting where you're going. If weather grounds your plane, it's not like they say "oh well, we aren't flying you out at all". Amtrak does not reimburse you for late arrival because they don't guarantee ontime arrival. Neither do the airlines. If I'm stuck in traffic due to an accident or necessary road construction, the DOT isn't going to reimburse for my time. Would the consequential loss apply to road delays? (I just want more details on this. I've never heard of a consequential loss here.)

 

[Westcoastwild]

Yeah. I can definitely see, if people don't fly much, being outraged to find out airlines CAN do this to you. I've learned that airlines can do a lot of things to you with very little explanation. It's super frustrating when they delay your flight without telling you exactly why.

Terms and conditions apply to everything though. Your Netflix account, your Facebook profile, your credit card, Disneyworld tickets. And most people have NO CLUE what the fine print says.

It doesn't matter what the fine print says if you get butchered in the court of public opinion.

Yeah. But the butchering wouldn't even be happening if the removal hadn't been botched. And the removal wouldn't have happened if he had just left when asked. The policy already existed. Where was the outrage then?

 

[mummabear]

They aren't really taking away the service though. You're still getting where you're going. If weather grounds your plane, it's not like they say "oh well, we aren't flying you out at all". Amtrak does not reimburse you for late arrival because they don't guarantee ontime arrival. Neither do the airlines. If I'm stuck in traffic due to an accident or necessary road construction, the DOT isn't going to reimburse for my time. Would the consequential loss apply to road delays? (I just want more details on this. I've never heard of a consequential loss here.)

So firstly consequential loss applies to everything here, if I buy a carpet cleaner and it is faulty and shreds my carpet they are responsible for both repairing or replacing the machine and my carpet for example, if the brakes are faulty on my car (and we had this happen to a car that was less than a week old) and it rolls down my drive into my garage door, they are responsible for all (foreseeable) damage as a result.

Secondly, there is I guess a real debate here about what we are paying the airline for, it seems you believe you are paying them to get you from a to b, I feel I am paying them to get me from a to b on the flight I booked, everyone can I think accept that there are some things such as weather that are outside of their control and so they are not responsible for, this situation was not one of them.

If you booked a hotel for Monday night, and when you arrived they said sorry sir all booked tonight you can have a room tomorrow night instead, are they still providing you the service you paid for? After all by your definition you booked a night they are giving you a night, just not the one you wanted.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Yeah you're right it wouldn't be a story at all! I think this story is making a lot of people realize how few rights they really have when flying. Like, people knew that they could be denied access to a flight but now they are actually pissed about it. People are fed up with the way airlines have been treating passengers and this is a finishing blow. There are cries for Passenger Protection reform. I am glad this story has blown up this way if this is what it takes for there to be a serious change in either the regulations protecting passengers or the airline's policies.

I think that's exactly it. It's one thing to know people sometimes get bumped and have to go on other flights and another to watch a guy get assaulted and dragged off a plane because the airline screwed up. Not only that but to have the airline's initial response to basically be "oh well that's what happens when you don't do what we tell you".
I think people have been putting up with a lot when it come to air travel. Bag fees, fees to pick seats, fees for food, fees for this and that, delays, cancelled flights, chaos from technical problems. I think this whole thing and United's response just caused the feelings of customers to boil over.

 

[bcla]

So this women's take is to do ANYTHING the flight crew tells her and complain later-so if the flight crew told her to remove her pants she would comply?

If one is asked to leave, complying is probably the best course of action. Failure to do so could be considered interfering with a flight crew.

 

[bcla]

They aren't really taking away the service though. You're still getting where you're going. If weather grounds your plane, it's not like they say "oh well, we aren't flying you out at all". Amtrak does not reimburse you for late arrival because they don't guarantee ontime arrival. Neither do the airlines. If I'm stuck in traffic due to an accident or necessary road construction, the DOT isn't going to reimburse for my time. Would the consequential loss apply to road delays? (I just want more details on this. I've never heard of a consequential loss here.)

Amtrak is actually pretty good about missed connections. Maybe not if it's a simple delay or cancellation though where the passenger is late to the final destination.

For missed "guaranteed" connections they often send an agent on the train to figure out how to proceed. They've chartered buses or taxis to meet up with a train. They'll arrange alternate trains. And they'll pay for hotels if the best option is for the next day.

 

[Westcoastwild]

So firstly consequential loss applies to everything here, if I buy a carpet cleaner and it is faulty and shreds my carpet they are responsible for both repairing or replacing the machine and my carpet for example, if the brakes are faulty on my car (and we had this happen to a car that was less than a week old) and it rolls down my drive into my garage door, they are responsible for all (foreseeable) damage as a result.

Secondly, there is I guess a real debate here about what we are paying the airline for, it seems you believe you are paying them to get you from a to b, I feel I am paying them to get me from a to b on the flight I booked, everyone can I think accept that there are some things such as weather that are outside of their control and so they are not responsible for, this situation was not one of them.

If you booked a hotel for Monday night, and when you arrived they said sorry sir all booked tonight you can have a room tomorrow night instead, are they still providing you the service you paid for? After all by your definition you booked a night they are giving you a night, just not the one you wanted.

You can request a refund in the case of the hotel. You're entitled to it. And you can request a refund on that flight that got cancelled if you don't take them up on the next one. Or at least I've been offered a refund before, when I've said, thanks but that doesn't work for me.

I'm not arguing that it's right. I'm arguing that legally, you aren't entiteled to any kind of reimbursement if your flight arrives late as long as it isn't later than what federal regulations allow.

The consequential loss thing- I wish that existed here. Especially in appliances like washing machines and carpet cleaners.

 

[Westcoastwild]

Amtrak is actually pretty good about missed connections. Maybe not if it's a simple delay or cancellation though where the passenger is late to the final destination.

For missed "guaranteed" connections they often send an agent on the train to figure out how to proceed. They've chartered buses or taxis to meet up with a train. They'll arrange alternate trains. And they'll pay for hotels if the best option is for the next day.

Yeah, I agree, they do figure out how to get you where you're going. But if they put me on the train the next morning, I've lost one day of my vacation and any costs associated with that. So it's no different to me whether Amtrak caused me to lose that money and time or the airlines caused me to lose it. And it doesn't really matter why they caused me to lose it- I'm still out of it.

 

[RedAngie]

I agree it doesn't matter if he is or isn't a doctor. His reason to wanting to fly doesn't trump the passenger in Seat 12B who wanted to be home in time to watch NCIS: Los Angeles.

But nobody should have been removed from the plane is such a manner.

What if your dad had an appointment with this doctor the next day, and ended up getting sick or dying because he couldn't be seen?

If a doctor had to cancel an appointment for whatever reason, I'm sure my father would have sense enough to go to a walk-in clinic or emergency room if it was vital to been seen promptly.

 

[mummabear]

If one is asked to leave, complying is probably the best course of action. Failure to do so could be considered interfering with a flight crew.

But if they arent legally entitled to do so? They had no legal cause to ask him to leave, or to be removed for that matter.
According to many things I have read, the denied boarding rules don't apply because he had already boarded.

You can request a refund in the case of the hotel. You're entitled to it. And you can request a refund on that flight that got cancelled if you don't take them up on the next one. Or at least I've been offered a refund before, when I've said, thanks but that doesn't work for me.

I'm not arguing that it's right. I'm arguing that legally, you aren't entiteled to any kind of reimbursement if your flight arrives late as long as it isn't later than what federal regulations allow.

The consequential loss thing- I wish that existed here. Especially in appliances like washing machines and carpet cleaners.

So you would be happy for this sort of practise in all industries?
You don't think there should be any protection for the consumer for business to supply the goods or services they sell as long as you get your money back if they don't.

 

[jiminyC_fan]

So this women's take is to do ANYTHING the flight crew tells her and complain later-so if the flight crew told her to remove her pants she would comply?

I don't think that question warrants an answer. Too silly.

 

[bcla]

So firstly consequential loss applies to everything here, if I buy a carpet cleaner and it is faulty and shreds my carpet they are responsible for both repairing or replacing the machine and my carpet for example, if the brakes are faulty on my car (and we had this happen to a car that was less than a week old) and it rolls down my drive into my garage door, they are responsible for all (foreseeable) damage as a result.

Secondly, there is I guess a real debate here about what we are paying the airline for, it seems you believe you are paying them to get you from a to b, I feel I am paying them to get me from a to b on the flight I booked, everyone can I think accept that there are some things such as weather that are outside of their control and so they are not responsible for, this situation was not one of them.

If you booked a hotel for Monday night, and when you arrived they said sorry sir all booked tonight you can have a room tomorrow night instead, are they still providing you the service you paid for? After all by your definition you booked a night they are giving you a night, just not the one you wanted.

Every form of travel promises point A to point B with caveats. You can argue all about an implied promise, but every airline will note the possibility of overbooking.

A hotel will typically walk a guest in case of overbooking. I've been bumped with a hotel room that I reserved, but they just upgraded me to a suite.

 

[Westcoastwild]

But if they arent legally entitled to do so? They had no legal cause to ask him to leave, or to be removed for that matter.
According to many things I have read, the denied boarding rules don't apply because he had already boarded.



So you would be happy for this sort of practise in all industries?
You don't think there should be any protection for the consumer for business to supply the goods or services they sell as long as you get your money back if they don't.

There are tons of protections in place, though. In this case, the protection is that the guy must be reimbursed with cash for involuntary bumping and that United has got to put him on the next available flight. Whether or not that's sufficient protection, that's a different discussion.

If you're refunded your money and no harm came to you in the process, then I don't think you're entitled to anything else. The only thing you can do as a consumer is not go back. I don't buy stuff from a few different stores for the same reason, and if a hotel walks me, I'm not going back to that hotel.

 

[Westcoastwild]

Every form of travel promises point A to point B with caveats. You can argue all about an implied promise, but every airline will note the possibility of overbooking.

A hotel will typically walk a guest in case of overbooking. I've been bumped with a hotel room that I reserved, but they just upgraded me to a suite.

Exactly. That is what I've being trying to say- you did so very succinctly. I've had flight delays or seen bumping on every airline I've flown with.

 

[bcla]

But if they arent legally entitled to do so? They had no legal cause to ask him to leave, or to be removed for that matter.
According to many things I have read, the denied boarding rules don't apply because he had already boarded.



So you would be happy for this sort of practise in all industries?
You don't think there should be any protection for the consumer for business to supply the goods or services they sell as long as you get your money back if they don't.

Who gets to judge what's legal? Someone jokes about a bomb and the captain orders the passenger off the flight. The passenger says it was just a joke. Is that legal? The captain has absolute authority to remove a passenger, and did in the United case.

And certainly there are lots of products or services where the business has a right to deny the product with a refund. It says that on each event ticket - that one can be denied entry with only a refund of the ticket price. That could happen even if the ticket was purchased at a premium through a broker or reseller.

 

[JaxDad]

So this women's take is to do ANYTHING the flight crew tells her and complain later-so if the flight crew told her to remove her pants she would comply?

How do you think she ended up married to a pilot...