To Infinity and Beyond - Becoming a Better DopeyBadger (Comments Welcome)

[DopeyBadger]

So I've finally read your entire blog, I wanted to make sure I wasn't asking to many questions that you've answered before I don't recall reading about any recovery routines for your off days. What do you typically do on your rest days? Do you foam roll at all(I've heard mixed things)? Do you employee any fasting (I read that it can improve recovery if done right)? Also, is it still worth reading the Hanson's marathon book or have you covered the majority of the info already? Lastly, since I live in FL and every day is hot and humid, do I lose benefits from easy runs when my heart rate crosses into zone 3?

You should get a medal for just reading through my entire rambling.

Anyways, to your questions:

What do you typically do on your rest days?
I don't run on one day a week, Wednesday. However, I do complete a brief Medicine Ball Workout on Wednesdays (detailed here). Other than that, there are no changes to my routine. I continue to eat the same meals, and don't do any extra recovery activities.

Do you foam roll at all?
I have never foam rolled, nor ever researched the practice of doing it. So, unfortunately I can't give you an answer as to whether it's scientifically validated as a method of recovery. However, it does go back to my old adage that if it works for you, then it works. Placebo effect or not.

Do you employee any fasting to improve recovery?
Can't say I've ever heard of it. What's the justification you've seen for this working? Although, for me personally it wouldn't be something I would do as I would prefer to stay on the side of always eating appropriately.

I will say for recovery that it is one of my genetic gifts or advantages over others. The largest percentage of recovery occurs at night when you're sleeping. And more specifically occurs when your are in REM sleep (rapid eye movement sleep). While not always the case, REM sleep is hallmarked by being in a dream state. This deep dream state of sleep elicits enormous recovery benefits for the muscles. For the average person, they enter REM sleep at around 90 minutes and go in and out of it for short durations (about 20% total of sleep). I believe I enter this stage of sleep much quicker, and that it tends to last longer. I don't have scientific evidence to back my claim for me personally, but I do believe it is an advantage for me. I tend to get 8-9 hours of sleep a night.

Should I read the Hansons marathon book?
Yes, it is still a great asset to read. I have covered many of the topics but not everything as extensively as the book does. Also read runnersconnect.net, they're a blog started by people who used to be within the Hansons inner circle but have diverted slightly on their methodology. The typically have a great blog with many great sources of research.

Do I lose benefits from easy runs when my heart rate crosses into zone 3?
I'm not 100% sold on heart rate being the end all be all, but with that being said, I would say the benefits of the easy run are probably not as good when in zone 3 vs zone 2. The heart rate is a good marker in that it indicates how hard you're working. It can be influenced my factors such as fatigue or environment. The current basis of your paces in your custom plan was designed based on a 5K PR you ran in April. The weather was likely cooler then, so the paces from then may not be appropriate for now. However, I'd counter balance this with you've probably made some physical gains since April and thus if you ran a 5K today (in similar weather conditions to April) you'd probably beat the PR. Thus, I'm comfortable meeting in the middle for now until your first 10K fitness test in a few weeks. At that time we could adjust the paces up or down if necessary. What's key is the effort. You're still learning what it feels like to run truly easy. Over time you'll build a mental data bank of time = effort = environment and eventually it will start to click what all types of paces should feel like. Before you can do that you just need to continue to memorize what EA, or EB, or Tempo, or Speed "feel" like. The EA you did on 9/19 is very representative HR of what I would expect based on what we presume to be your RHR and Max HR. So I venture to guess that the HR on 9/20 was partially fatigue based and heat/humidity based. It's too early to tell whether the paces I gave you are appropriate yet.

 

[opusone]

Also read runnerconnect.net

Think you mean www.runnersconnect.net, correct?

 

[DopeyBadger]

Think you mean www.runnersconnect.net, correct?

Correct sir. Thanks for the catch! Darn auto correct....

 

[DopeyBadger]

Stage 1 of aerodynamics complete!

Before



After

 

[DopeyBadger]

So I've finally read your entire blog, I wanted to make sure I wasn't asking to many questions that you've answered before I don't recall reading about any recovery routines for your off days. What do you typically do on your rest days? Do you foam roll at all(I've heard mixed things)? Do you employee any fasting (I read that it can improve recovery if done right)? Also, is it still worth reading the Hanson's marathon book or have you covered the majority of the info already? Lastly, since I live in FL and every day is hot and humid, do I lose benefits from easy runs when my heart rate crosses into zone 3?

So I think the interesting thing to note is that you read through all of my training journal and you didn't really notice me ever talking about recovery. So here's my take:

In it's most basic form, a running training plan is meant to provide a "stimulus" to the body and mind. The "stimulus" depends on the type of training you do. You do speed training and you elicit the potential for changing your muscle fibers from speed focused to endurance focused (can take years to make this transition). You do lactate threshold pace training and your ability to run a certain pace for about an hour becomes faster. You do a run in super hot conditions over many days and you're body thins out your blood so the blood can travel throughout the body easier and the heart doesn't have to work as hard. Running multiple days in a row causes your body to be in a state of mild fatigue which over time puts you at a different "starting position" for different runs (i.e. instead of starting at mile 1 for your long run, you're actually starting at mile 8, OR said another way if the fatigue build-up in your body is zero going into your long run you might never teach your body what it's like to run beyond your long run mileage **However, with that being said I still place a max of 2.5/4.5 hrs on training runs dependent on style**. It's why the Hansons plan can go to 16 miles max (for some people) and still enable you to be capable of completing a 26.2 mile race.

All of these stimuli lead to an adaptation in the body in response to that stimulus (not everything is listed here as adaptations, but a short example)

Speed -> Fiber change
Lactate Threshold -> Fatigue Clearance and tolerance of fatigue
Hot/Humid Conditions -> Thinned out blood
Easy runs -> Increased capillaries
Long Runs -> Mitochondrial density and volume
Glycogen Depletion Training -> Use fat more readily as a fuel source

However, providing a method of recovery to these stimuli can dampen the body's response to the stimuli. If I were to soak in an ice bath (take anti-inflammatory meds) after I came home from my tough long runs, then it would help my body recover for the next day's workout. The body would have suffered damage to the muscles. The body responds to this by going through an inflammatory cycle. This aids in repair and strengthening of those muscles. If I used an ice bath (meds), then the process clears out some of the biochemical markers in the body saying hey guys we're ok, it isn't that bad. Thus, it would dampen the body's natural response and not repair/strenghtn the muscles as well as it could have. Can you use some methods of recovery? Sure. But the more methods you use, compounds the recovery and lessens the adaptation. Knowing when it's appropriate to use methods of recovery vs not using methods becomes key. Thus, when it comes to race day you lessen your ability for peak performance because training wasn't quite where it could have been if you haven't gone into each day feeling "fresh". As you train for a few weeks, you'll learn what mild fatigue feels like. It becomes your new baseline, your new "normal". When the taper comes for a race, you drop below that new "normal" and have a feeling of freshness you haven't felt in months. That's where the dangerous pitfall of "going out too fast comes in". Which leads to the need for the Pac-Man Theory... Keep it concise...

So, then the question becomes well if stimuli leads to adaptation and increased recovery can dampen this response, I should train more often and allow less recovery? Not quite, remember that recovery on it's own still plays an integral role in the adaptation process. Just always including measures to improve the recovery can dampen the need for adaptation. There is one method of recovery that I use consistently. A good nutritious diet. What that diet is can be individualized. I know for me consuming a 4:1 (carbrotein) ratio of 16 oz of chocolate milk makes me feel better post-workout. But this is also providing a stimulus to the muscles. It can improve long term glycogen storage and aids in repairing the damages muscles.

The important part of training is learning to balance recovery and adaptations. Know your body. If it feels extra tired/sore after a workout, then maybe it needs that extra recovery measure to stay out of the injury zone. As with many of the things I say about training, "balance is key".

 

[dis_or_dat]

Oh man, once the hair goes, you know it's crunch time! What's stage 2 of aerodynamics?!

 

[canglim52]

So I think the interesting thing to note is that you read through all of my training journal and you didn't really notice me ever talking about recovery. So here's my take:

In it's most basic form, a running training plan is meant to provide a "stimulus" to the body and mind. The "stimulus" depends on the type of training you do. You do speed training and you elicit the potential for changing your muscle fibers from speed focused to endurance focused (can take years to make this transition). You do lactate threshold pace training and your ability to run a certain pace for about an hour becomes faster. You do a run in super hot conditions over many days and you're body thins out your blood so the blood can travel throughout the body easier and the heart doesn't have to work as hard. Running multiple days in a row causes your body to be in a state of mild fatigue which over time puts you at a different "starting position" for different runs (i.e. instead of starting at mile 1 for your long run, you're actually starting at mile 8, OR said another way if the fatigue build-up in your body is zero going into your long run you might never teach your body what it's like to run beyond your long run mileage **However, with that being said I still place a max of 2.5/4.5 hrs on training runs dependent on style**. It's why the Hansons plan can go to 16 miles max (for some people) and still enable you to be capable of completing a 26.2 mile race.

All of these stimuli lead to an adaptation in the body in response to that stimulus (not everything is listed here as adaptations, but a short example)

Speed -> Fiber change
Lactate Threshold -> Fatigue Clearance and tolerance of fatigue
Hot/Humid Conditions -> Thinned out blood
Easy runs -> Increased capillaries
Long Runs -> Mitochondrial density and volume
Glycogen Depletion Training -> Use fat more readily as a fuel source

However, providing a method of recovery to these stimuli can dampen the body's response to the stimuli. If I were to soak in an ice bath (take anti-inflammatory meds) after I came home from my tough long runs, then it would help my body recover for the next day's workout. The body would have suffered damage to the muscles. The body responds to this by going through an inflammatory cycle. This aids in repair and strengthening of those muscles. If I used an ice bath (meds), then the process clears out some of the biochemical markers in the body saying hey guys we're ok, it isn't that bad. Thus, it would dampen the body's natural response and not repair/strenghtn the muscles as well as it could have. Can you use some methods of recovery? Sure. But the more methods you use, compounds the recovery and lessens the adaptation. Knowing when it's appropriate to use methods of recovery vs not using methods becomes key. Thus, when it comes to race day you lessen your ability for peak performance because training wasn't quite where it could have been if you haven't gone into each day feeling "fresh". As you train for a few weeks, you'll learn what mild fatigue feels like. It becomes your new baseline, your new "normal". When the taper comes for a race, you drop below that new "normal" and have a feeling of freshness you haven't felt in months. That's where the dangerous pitfall of "going out too fast comes in". Which leads to the need for the Pac-Man Theory... Keep it concise...

So, then the question becomes well if stimuli leads to adaptation and increased recovery can dampen this response, I should train more often and allow less recovery? Not quite, remember that recovery on it's own still plays an integral role in the adaptation process. Just always including measures to improve the recovery can dampen the need for adaptation. There is one method of recovery that I use consistently. A good nutritious diet. What that diet is can be individualized. I know for me consuming a 4:1 (carbrotein) ratio of 16 oz of chocolate milk makes me feel better post-workout. But this is also providing a stimulus to the muscles. It can improve long term glycogen storage and aids in repairing the damages muscles.

The important part of training is learning to balance recovery and adaptations. Know your body. If it feels extra tired/sore after a workout, then maybe it needs that extra recovery measure to stay out of the injury zone. As with many of the things I say about training, "balance is key".

As usual great info! I absolutely heard you talk about recovery and nutrition, but I didn't see a specific routine on your recovery day other than the medicine ball. I asked because I was taking an off day, and was wondering if there are any tricks to make the day more productive. I'm assuming the 80/20 rule allows the damage done to your body to minimal, so you can recover faster with out a full day off.

I read a lot, but you always have to take what you read online with a grain of salt. Especially for us non scientist!

As for the fasting question, I've read a few articles that strongly suggest that fasting on a recovery day can boost your bodies ability to recover. It specifically increases the amount hgh your body naturally produces along with a bunch of other interesting and benicificail side affects. Apparently you can do it with out losing weight as well. Your body takes up to 48 hours in rest state to burn through all the glycogen in your muscles. I don't know how true those claims are, and so I was curious to hear your take.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Stage 1 of aerodynamics complete!

Before

View attachment 196204

After

View attachment 196205

If anyone is interested, this haircut is known as the Monchhichi.

Oh man, once the hair goes, you know it's crunch time! What's stage 2 of aerodynamics?!

Stage 2 is choosing the right outfit. Looking good = running fast!

As usual great info! I absolutely heard you talk about recovery and nutrition, but I didn't see a specific routine on your recovery day other than the medicine ball. I asked because I was taking an off day, and was wondering if there are any tricks to make the day more productive. I'm assuming the 80/20 rule allows the damage done to your body to minimal, so you can recover faster with out a full day off.

I read a lot, but you always have to take what you read online with a grain of salt. Especially for us non scientist!

As for the fasting question, I've read a few articles that strongly suggest that fasting on a recovery day can boost your bodies ability to recover. It specifically increases the amount hgh your body naturally produces along with a bunch of other interesting and benicificail side affects. Apparently you can do it with out losing weight as well. Your body takes up to 48 hours in rest state to burn through all the glycogen in your muscles. I don't know how true those claims are, and so I was curious to hear your take.

When I get some time I'll poke around online to see if I can find scientific articles backing up this claim and to see whether anyone has done studies on endurance athletes (biking, swimming, or running).

 

[Anisum]

Funny enough this race has a corral for 2:03 or less. Surprisingly, no one lined up there last year.

Wow, so weird. You would think the 7 or so people who have made it in the sub 2:04 range would have made sure to make it there.

Stage 2 is choosing the right outfit. Looking good = running fast!

This is an important practice that I apply to all my races.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Wow, so weird. You would think the 7 or so people who have made it in the sub 2:04 range would have made sure to make it there.

LOL, right?!?! Don't they know they should skip Berlin & Chicago and come do the Milwaukee Lakefront instead.

This is an important practice that I apply to all my races.

Agreed! Scientifically proven!

 

[roxymama]

Ok, first...I'm disappointed you will not have any "awesome volume" windy hair pics for us this time. But I guess choosing speed over hair volume is fine this time, since it's an "A" race. And I'm also hoping you actually don't get that kind of wind again, unless it is going in the correct direction for you.
Second...yes, snazzy clothes do make you faster! It's science. I'd suggest an ice cream skirt since I PR'd in one last time, but maybe that's not quite your style.

And finally....Can you believe this? 10!!!

 

[ZellyB]

10!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If anyone is interested, this haircut is known as the Monchhichi.

View attachment 196251

You had me at Monchhichi!!! I still have my Monchichi, name of Michael, I got as a teenager.

 

[canglim52]

Runners connect is great! I was telling my son about running slower to go faster, and he told me it's just like when Doc Hudson tells Lightning McQueen to turn right to go left!!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Ok, first...I'm disappointed you will not have any "awesome volume" windy hair pics for us this time. But I guess choosing speed over hair volume is fine this time, since it's an "A" race. And I'm also hoping you actually don't get that kind of wind again, unless it is going in the correct direction for you.
Second...yes, snazzy clothes do make you faster! It's science. I'd suggest an ice cream skirt since I PR'd in one last time, but maybe that's not quite your style.

And finally....Can you believe this? 10!!!

Yea, the haircut was strategically planned this time. Not so much for the May Marathon. Got some nice windy blown sandy beach headshots though for my look book... Not quite ready for the ice cream skirt, but I am wearing women's wisconsin running shorts (color dependent on the singlet choice).

And no, I can't believe it's only 10 days. Really tomorrow is down to single digits. And WEATHER 10-day forecast tomorrow, cause you know thats half the fun. I am a bit concerned with severe weather because we've had some massive storms almost everyday for the last week.

10!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



You had me at Monchhichi!!! I still have my Monchichi, name of Michael, I got as a teenager.

Ahh, 10 days!!! LOL, I've got a few Monchhichi's as well (twinning). I don't remember who pointed it out to me one time that my haircut so closely resembled theirs.

Runners connect is great! I was telling my son about running slower to go faster, and he told me it's just like when Doc Hudson tells Lightning McQueen to turn right to go left!!

Exactly, the concept seems so foreign. Run slower to race faster? What the what?!?! It would have been hard to prove to me otherwise, but I completely agree with the principles now after putting into practice.

 

[DopeyBadger]

10-Day Forecast Update!

Race Start - 7:30am Grafton, WI


Race End - 10:30-11:00am - Milwaukee, WI


Start has a T+D of 106 and Finish of 121. The T+Ds are a tad higher than desired, but are definitely good compared to the recent training weather (for comparison my 14 mile run yesterday morning was at 126, no sun though). Would like to see more cloud coverage as well. However, having a light breeze (and not light breeze = 30 mph ) is a welcome sight compared to the May Wisconsin Marathon. The race is almost exclusively North to South, so the wind direction is good too. In addition, the lake is to the east of the race so the breeze coming from the east means the chilled lake air will be pushed onto us. Overall, not perfect marathon conditions, but pretty darn good. Definitely won't hold me back.

 

[roxymama]

What the sign says!

 

[ZellyB]

Woohoo!!!! 9!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DopeyBadger]

What the sign says!

Lol, thanks!

Woohoo!!!! 9!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Single digits!

Did you know this will be my 9th marathon?

 

[DopeyBadger]

Here's another fun fact: My scheduled run tonight is 7 miles. The last time I ran 7 miles or less was 6/20/16 (not including off days). That is 95 days ago! And I've had 80 training runs of 7.1 miles or more since that day! Holy Moley!

 

[roxymama]

Here's another fun fact: My scheduled run tonight is 7 miles. The last time I ran 7 miles or less was 6/20/16 (not including off days). That is 95 days ago! And I've had 80 training runs of 7.1 miles or more since that day! Holy Moley!

Wow!
FYI: I have to run 7 miles tonight too. Not sure if we will be running at exactly the same time, but virtual race? I believe if we run our paces correctly, then I have a very good shot at a second place! But first in my division. My hubby is running his 7 miles tomorrow, so he may beat me on net time though. Eh, I'd take a third place.