Tithing- Let's discuss it

[MKCP5]

Wow! I am soooooooo impressed with all of you and your references and questions and thoughts. nsmith, your long post was a little overwhelming for me but fascinating. I have to dissect it a little at a time. But I do agree that God loves a cheerful giver which is why when I have felt that we just couldn't give that much but we did any way, it came from my heart grudgingly and it didn't feel good to give it out of guilt or obligation. Conversely when things were tight but I saw someone who it was tighter for and helped with groceries, etc. it felt like a gift to ME because of the joy it brought to my heart to help them.
graygables I have not been familiar with that passage that you are bringing up and want to look it over again and think about it. You bring up an interesting point. It's too bad people have gotten weird with you about it when it has been brought up. All scripture should been laid open to the light and discussed for us all to learn from.
thanks everyone for excellent discussion. Ilook forward to reading more posts about this!

 

[sk!mom]

I'm finding the points people have made about how times have changed since scriptures were written to be very interesting. I've never really thought about how our taxes are used to support the elderly and disabled. I think that is a very good point when it is compared to who took care of these same people in times past.

As I have said, I just can't in good conscious give 10% of my income to a church that doesn't need it when I could be helping an orphanage in Mexico, Habitat, and the United Way to name a few.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[dvcgirl]

"I just wonder, how do the Churches who push for 10% feel about retirement, college educations and personal savings. Are you allowed to fund those things before giving your 10% to the church? And if you are able to adequately fund retirement and education funds, what if there is literally nothing left after paying the bills? Are you permitted to go on vacations and things like that? If you do go to WDW and didn't hit your 10% this year is that considered a sin?

Also, do you get financial statements so that you can see where the money is going? 10% of a congregations gross income could amount to a *ton* of money. Some of these TV evangelists are just dripping in money....multi-millionaires who are buying mansions and Bentleys off of the money that little old poor ladies are sending. Do you see where the money is going?"



God doesn't bless us because of our tithe...he blesses us because He loves us, and because we have done the only work that he requires of us...to believe on HIM who He has sent...He blesses us in ways much more than material possessions...He blesses us with wisdom to know which church He needs our tithing at...He blesses us by using us for His purpose...which is more of a "reward" than a visit to Disney (although in my experience, He did use a trip to Disney to help a dear friend of mine with terminal cancer)...

Let me try and answer your questions individually...
1. Where were retirement funds, college savings, and personal savings 100 years ago? 200 hundred years ago? 500 years ago? What did Jesus do to the moneychangers using the temple for work other than worship? In short, what should come first is our faith in Him and our commitment to honoring him. I think we dishonor God by not trusting that he will be our retirement fund, our college savings...etc. I have heard stories of families who thought they were prudently saving for their retirement only to find out the company had borrowed against the retirement funds to float the company's bills and all was lost. But then, when they thought all was lost in spite of having "planned"....the money comes in strange in wondrous ways. I have been blessed in seeing how God works...it's much greater than any way that we could provide for ourselves. I'm not saying to abandon all savings...just that you must give to God what is His and to Caesar what is his....


Yes, but 100, 200, 500 years ago? I mean, how is that even relevant to our times? Is there any flexibility with Chrisitians or religion in general. 500 years ago....I mean, seriously, how can you compare that time to our time. Even 100 years ago.....it's a different world. These days it's not uncommon for a family's mortgage payment to be 1/2 of their income, a 1/3 in many cases. Now, if you're a card carrying Christian and don't practice birth control and have about 10 children, well....how are you going to feed them, clothe them, educate them? It's not a rational argument to compare 2005 with 1505 or even 1905. This is one reason that the Catholic Church is losing parishoners in droves....they can't see the importance of becoming current with our society's problems and issues.

 

[shelly3girls]

We contribute 10% of our net salary to God's works. This includes our Church and our Christian school (which is run by our church). This percentage is not 10% of net income b/c I receive a bonus. We know that we need to increase the amount we donate and are working on it. We have increased it every year and plan to be at 10% soon. We personally believe in "net" not gross for many of the reasons listed on previous posts. Our church talks about tithing 10% but our pastor alway says the same thing "God asks for equal sacrifice not equal giving." For someone $1 may mean more than our $100 and our church respects that. We are not a wealthy church (relatively small) but have managed to build a beautiful addition to the building to house our rapidly growing school. This is possible through the sacrifice of many

 

[JoyG]

I just wonder, how do the Churches who push for 10% feel about retirement, college educations and personal savings. Are you allowed to fund those things before giving your 10% to the church? And if you are able to adequately fund retirement and education funds, what if there is literally nothing left after paying the bills? Are you permitted to go on vacations and things like that? If you do go to WDW and didn't hit your 10% this year is that considered a sin?

Also, do you get financial statements so that you can see where the money is going? 10% of a congregations gross income could amount to a *ton* of money. Some of these TV evangelists are just dripping in money....multi-millionaires who are buying mansions and Bentleys off of the money that little old poor ladies are sending. Do you see where the money is going?"

1. I believe in tithing 10% of gross in order to give God my first fruits.

2. I don't believe donating my time counts as part of my tithe, it's in addition to my tithe, and I volunteer at church to the point it becomes a "sacrafice."...kind of like excercising until you feel the "burn".

3. I tithe before worrying about retirement funds or college funds. There's no guarantee I'll live to see retirement, but I definitely be in Heaven on day, and the Bible says, "Store up for yourselves treasures in Heaven where moth and rust do not destroy, and where theives do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." (Matthew 6:20-21). This is not to say I don't plan for retirement, but if I had to choose between the two, I'd pick (and have picked) tithing.

4. My church has quarterly business meetings which detail spending to the penny. At the end of the year we get a statement for our personal income taxes too.

I'll admit, it was hard the first Sunday I put a triple digit check in the offering plate, but the first time was the hardest...it got easier each time after that, and I ENJOY giving to my church.

With that said, we're working our way up to 10% over the course of a year...what we have problems with is when we miss a Sunday, we end up missing that tithe payment and not making it up. So that throws our yearly statement off. For the 2005 tax season, I'd like my church statement to read exactly (or more than) 10% of my Employer's W-2 statement.

 

[gr8ful4Him]

Hi there!
What a blessing that your husband is pastoring 3 different churches! Are the new churches just getting off the ground? Only y'all can know what God wants you to do with the money of your tithe - but I think I would just split the tithe equally between the three.. if the churches are just getting started then they need all the help they can get!

Thank you Pamlet. It is a great blessing to be a pastoral family. It is difficult at times, but we know this is where God has placed us. My dh would rather have all 3 combine and become one, but that's not an option at this point. Our churches are not new, but it seems our denomination (UMC) will allow a church to stay open no matter how small it gets. We have seen growth at all 3 churches this past year, in numbers of ppl, their personal growths and also the amount of giving. The smallest of the three churches was close to shutting the doors when we got there. DH found out that they were not giving anything to missions and was blown away. He got that changed, and the first month after they gave something to missions, the rest of their finances came out of the red. Coincidence? ...I think not
Anyways, for now we will continue to give to God as we feel led to. I drive school bus and I hear some of the things that the kids talk about, and it breaks my heart. God has laid it upon me to help change these kids lives, but I am limited in what I can say to them personally. I do know that DMLive is now on secular radios in different areas in the country, ours being one of them, so that is why they are one of the organizations we give to. It's not the "same world" today as when I was a teen (which wasn't that long ago!)

 

[dvcgirl]

1. I believe in tithing 10% of gross in order to give God my first fruits.

2. I don't believe donating my time counts as part of my tithe, it's in addition to my tithe, and I volunteer at church to the point it becomes a "sacrafice."...kind of like excercising until you feel the "burn".

3. I tithe before worrying about retirement funds or college funds. There's no guarantee I'll live to see retirement, but I definitely be in Heaven on day, and the Bible says, "Store up for yourselves treasures in Heaven where moth and rust do not destroy, and where theives do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." (Matthew 6:20-21). This is not to say I don't plan for retirement, but if I had to choose between the two, I'd pick (and have picked) tithing.

4. My church has quarterly business meetings which detail spending to the penny. At the end of the year we get a statement for our personal income taxes too.

I'll admit, it was hard the first Sunday I put a triple digit check in the offering plate, but the first time was the hardest...it got easier each time after that, and I ENJOY giving to my church.

With that said, we're working our way up to 10% over the course of a year...what we have problems with is when we miss a Sunday, we end up missing that tithe payment and not making it up. So that throws our yearly statement off. For the 2005 tax season, I'd like my church statement to read exactly (or more than) 10% of my Employer's W-2 statement.

But you see, you're making my point...or at least a point that I made later. "Storing up" your treasures in heaven. It makes it sound as though you are buying your way in. And for those who do tithe faithfully and then can't afford to send their children to college or fund their retirement fully....is that not being irresponsible to your fellow man? No guarantee that you'll see college or retirement? That's proposterous. What if we all lived that way? Well, I may not be here next month, no sense making that car payment. Oh well, may not be here tomorrow, why go to work? I'm sorry, but I don't get that and could never participate as a member in a congregation that advocates that kind of a plan. Hey, if people want to give 20% to their church then great, provided that they can care for the present and future needs of their own family. Otherwise it seems awfully short-sighted to me.

 

[JoyG]

But you see, you're making my point...or at least a point that I made later. "Storing up" your treasures in heaven. It makes it sound as though you are buying your way in. And for those who do tithe faithfully and then can't afford to send their children to college or fund their retirement fully....is that not being irresponsible to your fellow man? No guarantee that you'll see college or retirement? That's proposterous. What if we all lived that way? Well, I may not be here next month, no sense making that car payment. Oh well, may not be here tomorrow, why go to work? I'm sorry, but I don't get that and could never participate as a member in a congregation that advocates that kind of a plan. Hey, if people want to give 20% to their church then great, provided that they can care for the present and future needs of their own family. Otherwise it seems awfully short-sighted to me.

1. I don't see it as "buying" my way in, I'd be going to Heaven whether I tithed or not since I believe in and have accepted Jesus. Tithing is something you feel convicted to compelled by God to do after you've gotten the basics of your faith down. I enjoy doing it because I feel like God wants me to tithe. It makes me happy to know I'm obeying God.

2. I don't see it as being irresponsible to my fellow man by not funding my retirement before I tithe. I'm saying I've put more priority on tithing, but I haven't ignored the other areas. I try to be a good steward over the money God has trusted me with...that includes saving for the future and college...but it's clear my priority choices are different from yours.

3. In the example you used, it would be irresponsible for me not to make "next month's car payment" b/c that wouldn't be showing good stewardship, I'd be delinquent on an obligation, ruin my credit, etc...

However, if I couldn't tithe because of that car payment, I probably shouldn't be driving a car that has a payment or one that has a payment large enough it would be the difference of me tithing or not...I'd have to readjust my priorities in that area, downsize the car...

That's what I mean when I say our priorities are different.

 

[tlbwriter]

(Caveat: Not "picking on you", Lisa loves Pooh ... just quoting you 'cuz you said it so succinctly.) I still don't get how you all figure you have to tithe off your gross? To me, "income" is what comes IN to the household. Money the government takes never comes IN to the household.

Technically, every penny of it comes into your household. And then you are taxed on it, and you pay your taxes. We do it a little backwards now, since most of us "prepay" our taxes via withholding, but all of the money *is* yours.

We don't tithe. We give (cash, time, and non-cash donations) but we don't tithe. And our church doesn't make a big deal of it. Personally, I could not be a member of a church that told me I'd be "less loved" if I didn't tithe.

 

[DisneyGirl]

The amount of your tithe according to what the Bible says, I think, should hinder on whether you believe the Bible is a "living" document, or should be interpreted as it was written, when it was written (a dual interpretation you will see in respect to the US Constitution-- a good Supreme Court will be split with Justices on both sides of the interpretation)

If you believe that the Bible should be interpreted as it was written, then 10% of your gross income, including benefits should be given to your church, and your church alone (not charities). When the Bible was written, there were no taxes as we know them today (there were collections, however). The Jewish, and later Catholic Churches themselves played the role that the many charities in addition to the many diffierent Churches play today (contributing to the poor, etc.)

If you believe that the Bible is a living document, then your donation should be split amongst the Churches (likely, the one you attend, although I see no problem in contributing to another church), and to charities you support. Remember that these charities are taking on part of the role that was previously played solely by the Church. I also think that the donation, if you choose to make it a certain percentage, should come from your NET income if you follow the "living" interpretation. A part of the money that is collected as taxes is also going to charitable causes, such as social security for the elderly, and welfare for those who are not well-to-do.

Now, my personal belief is that it is not who you give to, nor is it how much you choose to give. It all comes down to your attitude, and whether you are a good person or not. If you give very little, but you give it willingly and sincerely to help people, then I think you are a better person than the person who gives 75% of their income to a charity grudgingly. If you are a good person, and are nice to people in your daily life, and help people in any way (not necessarily monetarily), I think you are a good person, and God will welcome you home when you die, even if you had never been able to give a penny to charity. I think that, where humans live in a monetary society, God does not. I think God cares more about you as a person, than you as a money-donator. Just my personal opinion-- overall, I think everyone should do what makes them happiest, most comfortable, and in the way they can help the most!

 

[hsmamato2]

This is an interesting question- if viewing the bible as Gods word, and relevant for life today- Under the mosaic law given to Israel, they were clearly instructed to give the tenth part of their firstfruits,as another post pointed out, to serve as a"cushion" for those in need in their community also--- yet for christians, the bible clearly states at Romans 10:4-"Christ is the end of the Law,so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness." Also- I believe it was the Apostle Paul who said at @ Corinthians 9:6,7-to " do each one as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly..."and "he that sows bountifully will reap bountifully.."
I guess my viewpoint is that a tithe is mandatory, but for christians,it's important to give from our hearts-important thing to exercise faith-

 

[mickeyfan2]

Much of what we pay in taxes and what we save for retirement oes to these same purposes- the welfare of others now and ourselves in the future. I don't know if there is an exact percentage of gross or net that is "right", but i do believe that between what i pay in taxes, my own contributions to the United Way, our church and other charities that well more than 10% of my gross income goes to support the society that i live in.

I agree. I feel that the 10% does not have to go to the church to spend, but to God. As a result the church does not get 10% but a smaller amount. We give to other charities, family, friends etc. This is what God wanted. I will not let Pastor decide how to spend my money to God.

 

[Mrs. Squirrel]

It's also clear that some of you feel as though if you haven't given the full 10% that your relationship with God is in jeopardy somehow, or that you're doomed in some way. And when you do give, and give lots, that all of the sudden things get better. It's sounds sort of like brainwashing to me...to hear families stand up and testify how wonderful their lives are when they give more as opposed to less. All sort of alarms would be going off in my head if I ever heard that sort of testimony.

I am sorry. . .no offense, but I was very sad when I read this section of your post. First of all. . .I didn't read anyone who tithed indicating that they felt their relationship with God was in jeopardy or that they were doomed without tithing. Did I miss something??? And would anyone who has never tithed really have the knowledge base to critique it?

Second. . .is it possible that there is an offense against a church or a brother over money behind the feelings demonstrated in your post? If not, I don't have the foggiest why you would say that families sharing testimonies of blessings in their lives would cause you alarm! We are to rejoice when others are blessed! Under your rational, I must be brainwashed. . .because I could fill a thread with how God has blessed us abundantly in tithing, with healing, with peace, etc. . .not because of the money, but because of the obedience to His Word and willingness of your heart to be lead by Him and not by your own rational mind. The reason folks testify to God's goodness is not to coerce others, but to show by example that life as you know it will not come crashing down around you when you give up control to God. Tithing not only supports the work of the church, but in it you are demonstrating a trust in God as your provider rather than man. We are to be faithful in tithe and in setting aside for our future, however I am sure that folks working for Enron could testify to the danger of trusting in man or in their own wisdom. You will always live better on 90% in obedience than under 100% doing it your way. When you put God first in all areas of your life, you take your hand's off which opens them up to receive His blessing. Of course. . .money is not, nor ever has been related to the amount of God's love for us. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us!

From an MBA banker and former type A control freak born again 11-96 who in her late 20's had to learn how to live with a renewed mind!

 

[BethR]

Just want to step in here to ask everyone to use caution when posting to this thread. It is very hard to post things and have others read them, or read things that others have posted and know exactly the meaning behind the letters on the computer.

This is a very sensitive subject and one that I definately think could deteriorate into a debate - something that we do not care for on the Budget Board.

Perhaps this thread should be moved to the Community Board where broader topics are discussed?

 

[Belle5]

Just wanted to pop in and say that this has been one of the most informative threads I have ever read on the DIS-and I have been around quite a while. Had it been on the Community board I never would have seen it as I rarely go over there. I think it does belong here on the Budget Board because this is a huge financial issue that many families have to decide about. I have found it immensely helpful!
I would encourage every person reading this to search the Scriptures like the Bereans and learn how to properly interpret the Bible. I believe that many pastors and teachers honestly believe what they have been taught but maybe we need to look at things with fresh eyes and lots of prayer and see what the Word really says--not what we have been taught that it says by well meaning folks who lead us to the verses they want us to see.
I was shocked recently to hear of a pastor of a large church where I used to belong-- telling his congregation that if people really understood how to interpret Scripture they would know that the 10% tithe is a doctrine from the law and not the grace we live under. I was shocked because the entire time I was at that church I assumed the 10% tithe was taught.
Thank you for posting this thread!

 

[NewEnglandDisney]

have a great day

 

[dvcgirl]

I am sorry. . .no offense, but I was very sad when I read this section of your post. First of all. . .I didn't read anyone who tithed indicating that they felt their relationship with God was in jeopardy or that they were doomed without tithing. Did I miss something??? And would anyone who has never tithed really have the knowledge base to critique it?

Second. . .is it possible that there is an offense against a church or a brother over money behind the feelings demonstrated in your post? If not, I don't have the foggiest why you would say that families sharing testimonies of blessings in their lives would cause you alarm! We are to rejoice when others are blessed! Under your rational, I must be brainwashed. . .because I could fill a thread with how God has blessed us abundantly in tithing, with healing, with peace, etc. . .not because of the money, but because of the obedience to His Word and willingness of your heart to be lead by Him and not by your own rational mind. The reason folks testify to God's goodness is not to coerce others, but to show by example that life as you know it will not come crashing down around you when you give up control to God. Tithing not only supports the work of the church, but in it you are demonstrating a trust in God as your provider rather than man. We are to be faithful in tithe and in setting aside for our future, however I am sure that folks working for Enron could testify to the danger of trusting in man or in their own wisdom. You will always live better on 90% in obedience than under 100% doing it your way. When you put God first in all areas of your life, you take your hand's off which opens them up to receive His blessing. Of course. . .money is not, nor ever has been related to the amount of God's love for us. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us!

From an MBA banker and former type A control freak born again 11-96 who in her late 20's had to learn how to live with a renewed mind!

Clearly, I don't have the same belief system that many are speaking to here. I would think that was pretty clear. I definitely don't think of the Bible as the word of God. I see it as a wonderful series of morality stories.
I never had an awful experience within the Catholic church, however, I've not seen eye to eye with many of their decisions for many, many years. And for what it's worth, tithing is not the "norm" within the Catholic church, at least not in any church I've ever attended (or my DH or any other Catholic that I know).

However, in reading many of the posts in this thread, it is fairly clear that there are a few who feel pressure, whether from the church or from themselves to reach the 10% level. Some have implied that they "hope" it's enough. That's a frightening statement to me.

Secondly, yes, it would be alarming to me if many families stood up testifying to the congregation that they felt more blessed because they gave more *money*. That sounds like brainwashing to me. It really and truly does. I'm sorry if that bothers you. If folks in here aren't equating God's love with money, than why are we all talking about that 10% figure and the desire to reach it. And the implication that when one does reach it, that all will be well. I just never knew that tithing was a pre-paid ticket to heaven.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

(Caveat: Not "picking on you", Lisa loves Pooh ... just quoting you 'cuz you said it so succinctly.) I still don't get how you all figure you have to tithe off your gross? To me, "income" is what comes IN to the household.

Not to pick back at you

But then--what prevents you from removing your debts and other obligations---I mean, property tax--that's not ours....the mortgage....well we do need a roof over our heads.

Right now we are striving for net---just b/c that is where we are at right now. However---it should be gross for a true tithe.

When asked how much you make per year--what do you tell people...net or gross? Income is the whole amount--net and gross are terms for the IRS and not for God.

JMHO.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I just wonder, how do the Churches who push for 10% feel about retirement, college educations and personal savings. Are you allowed to fund those things before giving your 10% to the church? And if you are able to adequately fund retirement and education funds, what if there is literally nothing left after paying the bills? Are you permitted to go on vacations and things like that? If you do go to WDW and didn't hit your 10% this year is that considered a sin?

Also, do you get financial statements so that you can see where the money is going? 10% of a congregations gross income could amount to a *ton* of money. Some of these TV evangelists are just dripping in money....multi-millionaires who are buying mansions and Bentleys off of the money that little old poor ladies are sending. Do you see where the money is going?

Glad to say that our Catholic church does not support the televangelists.

It goes to various missions, to help the poor, the bishop's appeal et cetera.
We get statements annually about what they did and where all monies were allocated.

As far as your personal finances and what a church advises---you should just like retirement...work small and set the max as your goal. If 10% is going to blow you out of the water....well that isn't its purpose. Remember, I said you should "feel it" not be "hurt" by it. Giving is to feel good and not painful. (and I do not mean that it is painful to the stingy--I mean painful in that you would have trouble paying the bills of necessity).

If you think about it--the extras are just extras....I could justify saving for retirment perhaps--but paying the kids education (though important) and going on vacation....are just extras. They aren't needs.

Tithing is always a "before"--not a do it with what's leftover thing. Kind of like savings. IF you don't put that $50 in the bank now. Who's to say that after expenses...you'll still have $50 remaining to save.

It is all about Trust....and the great thing is that it is a ratio. 10% of someone who makes $100 a week is only $10. Now to some that would be alot...but that person is making $5200 and I am assuming that they are not poverty stricken. But if that $10 was instead going to be used to go to the movies...let's be honest...that person has just said that personal entertainment is more important than God.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Money the government takes never comes IN to the household. I don't get to figure it into my budget; it's never mine to begin with; if I tried to take it, I'd be thrown in jail, as the government says it's THEIR money.

One more note--charitable contributions reduce your taxable income--so it isn't "theirs" until you file your tax return---you have all year to make "their" money as little as possible.