This just seems WRONG.... Update, NOT so wrong!!!

[jgmklmhem]

She doesn't mean creative like thinking out of the box creativity she means like Scrapbooking your science report so it looks pretty creativity. That is NOT going to help you discover then next major advancement in cancer treatment.

No where in the initial rant is this mentioned. She pretty clearly made the point that creativity and science are not compatible even going so far as to state it wasn't a creative writing course, but a science course. I was just pointing out that that thinking is way off base and just like in a creative writing course it is the formation of the new idea that is important.

 

[chris1gill]

She doesn't mean creative like thinking out of the box creativity she means like Scrapbooking your science report so it looks pretty creativity. That is NOT going to help you discover then next major advancement in cancer treatment.

This is exactly right golfgal... it just didn't look creatively pretty... The project mind you was a brochure on the planet Pluto....

One thing that immediately comes to mind, is that the partner wanted to put the Disney character Pluto on the brochure... My DS was HORRIFIED at the thought of putting a dog named pluto on his science brochure on the planet pluto...

This teacher was accomodating to allow DS to do the project on his own & I really do appreciate that, he appreciates that.... but at the end of the day, his honesty and integrity didn't really help him...

So, I guess if all else fails, next time he'll put the picture of the dog Pluto on his report

 

[MouseWorshipin]

I see everyday the consequences of some of these programs. I teach business at the college level and some of the things I see and hear make me cringe. I have students that no idea how to spell, to build conherent sentences and arguments, and use basic math. Some days you need to get creative to get your message across.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. All this creative crap, including the coloring (and I didn't even get into why kids are coloring and making cute scrapbook stuff!) has resulted in cashiers who can't make change.

The more creative the schools get, the dumber the kids get. And for people who are always talking about applying knowledge, you'd think they'd look at that and say, "Hmmm...."

 

[MouseWorshipin]

Well, bummer. Now you lost me. I actually totally agree with finding different methods of presenting material. Kids learn in different ways and you have to present the same info differently in order to reach them all. For instance, DD would totally get the half concept from circles on paper that were shaded. DS would look at you like you were speaking a foreign language. The apple thing, he would get.

Your son HAS to learn basic math concepts without making applesauce. If he doesn't understand it well enough without apples, how will he build on it? When you get into complex math, you can't chop up thousands of apples into tiny pieces. If the kids don't learn how to do math one step at a time, correctly, they are lost later.

Kids in China are able to do it. They learn their math inside out, and they learn it much sooner than American kids. And the Chinese aren't doing guessing math. It isn't that our kids CAN'T do as well as other countries, I don't think. It is just that they aren't taught HOW. They are busy being entertained and eating applesauce.

 

[jgmklmhem]

This is exactly right golfgal... it just didn't look creatively pretty... The project mind you was a brochure on the planet Pluto....

One thing that immediately comes to mind, is that the partner wanted to put the Disney character Pluto on the brochure... My DS was HORRIFIED at the thought of putting a dog named pluto on his science brochure on the planet pluto...

This teacher was accomodating to allow DS to do the project on his own & I really do appreciate that, he appreciates that.... but at the end of the day, his honesty and integrity didn't really help him...

So, I guess if all else fails, next time he'll put the picture of the dog Pluto on his report

Ok now that you have revealed what the project was I can see how creativity definately comes in to play. A report about Pluto should be all facts and such. A brochure has to be eye catching and keep the readers attention. That would call for some creativity. Should this be done in a science class...maybe not, but the assignment definately calls for at least some marketing creativity...which in the real science world is more important than many here might think. Anyone can find bullet points about Pluto but packaging it in a way that is interesting and appealing is what the assignment really seems to be going after.

 

[Maleficent13]

I kept wanting to jump in but instead I'll just say:

Repeat everything MouseWorshipin said and that's what I say too!

 

[MouseWorshipin]

Ok now that you have revealed what the project was I can see how creativity definately comes in to play. A report about Pluto should be all facts and such. A brochure has to be eye catching and keep the readers attention. That would call for some creativity. Should this be done in a science class...maybe not, but the assignment definately calls for at least some marketing creativity...which in the real science world is more important than many here might think. Anyone can find bullet points about Pluto but packaging it in a way that is interesting and appealing is what the assignment really seems to be going after.

Making pretty, eye-catching brochures is NOT the job of a scientist. It's the job of a graphic artist.

If the schools want to teach how to display pretty things, they can do it in art class. Take all the time spent on that stuff in regular classes and devote it to learning Science or Math, and the kids will learn more.

Learning the facts about Pluto is far more important that how (or even if) those thoughts are "packaged."

Remarkably funny to me: I just found out that we have to go buy tea bags. My son is studying Greeks and Romans, so we have to make some kind of scroll! The tea bags are to crinkle and stain the paper. (No, he won't be writing a report.)

 

[disneymom3]

Your son HAS to learn basic math concepts without making applesauce. If he doesn't understand it well enough without apples, how will he build on it? When you get into complex math, you can't chop up thousands of apples into tiny pieces. If the kids don't learn how to do math one step at a time, correctly, they are lost later.

Kids in China are able to do it. They learn their math inside out, and they learn it much sooner than American kids. And the Chinese aren't doing guessing math. It isn't that our kids CAN'T do as well as other countries, I don't think. It is just that they aren't taught HOW. They are busy being entertained and eating applesauce.

Well, yeah I know that but since he is in Kindergarten the apple is okay for now. I was referring to introducing the concept not building on it for forever. I had guessed, perhaps wrongly that that was an introductory lesson you were referring to in your earlier post.

And interestingly, we do use Singapore math. (Kids in Singapore score even higher than those in China ) and the cutting up the apple and measuring out cups of water into different sized containers and plenty of other things that are hands on come directly out of their curriculum.

Hey, we did that scroll this last year. Doesn't come out of Story of the World by any chance does it? My kids had fun with that. We also had them do math using Roman Numerals. Yikes, talk about fuzzy math!!

 

[jgmklmhem]

Making pretty, eye-catching brochures is NOT the job of a scientist. It's the job of a graphic artist.

If the schools want to teach how to display pretty things, they can do it in art class. Take all the time spent on that stuff in regular classes and devote it to learning Science or Math, and the kids will learn more.

Learning the facts about Pluto is far more important that how (or even if) those thoughts are "packaged."

Remarkably funny to me: I just found out that we have to guy buy tea bags. My son is studying Greeks and Romans, so we have to make some kind of scroll! The tea bags are to crinkle and stain the paper. (No, he won't be writing a report.)

I think you have a pretty idealistic view of what a scientist does. Most don't have a graphic arts department to sell their ideas. Most scientists have to do it all themselves including all the graphics for publications and all presentations at scientific meetings (believe me I have spent hours trying to get graphs just right for the review process for publication or putting together a poster to show at an ACS meeting). They also have to try to get the word out to more mainstream sources marketing their ideas in a way that makes it sound good to those who know nothing about science in order to get support and more importantly money. You might have the best idea since sliced bread but if you cannot present it in a way that will get people to support you...pursuing that idea may not be feasible. I would argue that learning the facts about Pluto is not all that important. The whole process is way more important than just memorizing something about Pluto. Another example would be knowing the ideal gas law is PV=nRT but if you don't understand the concept of the ideal gas law or how to use it...your memorization is for not. Also not addressed in your points is that if you don't make science or math interesting you lose all but the hard core students.

 

[declansdad]

And interestingly, we do use Singapore math. (Kids in Singapore score even higher than those in China ) and the cutting up the apple and measuring out cups of water into different sized containers and plenty of other things that are hands on come directly out of their curriculum.

Who would have thought, using creativity to teach a math concept.

 

[MouseWorshipin]

Well, yeah I know that but since he is in Kindergarten the apple is okay for now. I was referring to introducing the concept not building on it for forever. I had guessed, perhaps wrongly that that was an introductory lesson you were referring to in your earlier post.

And interestingly, we do use Singapore math. (Kids in Singapore score even higher than those in China ) and the cutting up the apple and measuring out cups of water into different sized containers and plenty of other things that are hands on come directly out of their curriculum.

I don't know about Singapore. Been there, don't have friends there. But I'd bet my life that if the kids are doing well in math, that they're being taught how to do it, step by step. They aren't guessing at answers.

And like I said before, if the schools here want to do that, I'll give it to them...after they start educating the kids.

But...They're attempting to teach fractions to kids who don't know how to add??? The schools are beyond help. They need to be gutted, top to bottom. Let the ones with common sense re-apply.

No, the applesauce was not for 5 year olds. But it WAS new, creative, and more able to hold attention than actual boring old math.

 

[chris1gill]

Making pretty, eye-catching brochures is NOT the job of a scientist. It's the job of a graphic artist.

If the schools want to teach how to display pretty things, they can do it in art class. Take all the time spent on that stuff in regular classes and devote it to learning Science or Math, and the kids will learn more.

Learning the facts about Pluto is far more important that how (or even if) those thoughts are "packaged."

Remarkably funny to me: I just found out that we have to guy buy tea bags. My son is studying Greeks and Romans, so we have to make some kind of scroll! The tea bags are to crinkle and stain the paper. (No, he won't be writing a report.)

AMEN MouseWorshipin!! I'm letting you speak for me from here on out, you do such a focussed job of presenting the facts...

jgmklmhem, you sort of hit the nail on the head with my DS, he is highly gifted in math and science... when you start trying to introduce fuzzy concepts such as Singapore math you drive him INSANE.... he's been adding, multiplying and using fractions since before kindergarten.... He would be more than happy to tell you every fact there is on Pluto... Sort of the opposite from the kids for which you spoke....

Now, as for me, I was a computer software analyst before I was disabled a few years back... believe me, it was all LOGIC skills, there was no creativity in developing the code for the missile systems on which I worked... so not all kids need fluff.... I'm just saying..... One size doesn't fit all....

Now, having said all of this, I absolutely love the school our kids go to & 90% of the time, both kids are challenged, we just have this one issue with this one class.... This is a liberal arts prep school, and overall they do a fantastic job... the teachers are fantastic, but just with this one particular subject our DS has had serious communication problems...

So, thanks everyone, I feel better & MouseWorshipin, I'm right there with you!

 

[becka]

I was part of that “guessing math” thread so I guess I can just jump right into the same discussion here. The problems that were being discussed were not aimed at teaching kids that their primary math skills are worthless and that “guessing” is the way to go. They were trying to build something called: DEDUCTIVE REASONING. Perhaps you have heard of it. It is a critical skill for higher level mathematics and it is not something that you learn by just memorizing basic math facts. I will agree that there is probably not nearly enough emphasis on basic arithmetic in our schools and that many of our students are woefully unprepared in math and the sciences but just teaching students how to work a problem alone step by step is not going to let them compete with students from China either. Students must developing reasoning, estimation and various other skills in addition to their basic math skills. Math can be abstract and fluid. It does not always have to be a rigid “science”. That does not mean that I think we should teach kids that there is not a right and a wrong answer and it does not mean that we do not need to teach kids the appropriate steps to solve a quadratic equation. However, if we really want our kids to exceed in fields such as mathematics, engineering, chemistry, medicine, etc.. we need to be sure we are building all of their skills – not just rote memorization of facts and steps.

I also disagree that we should make math boring. I will admit that some of it is boring and you just have to work your way through it but we should be showing our kids the applications for math and making it interesting. How else do you show them that math is something worth their time and how do you inspire our next generation of scientists? Even from a very early age I think we should show kids the application of math in their everyday lives. Heck, I even do this with my almost 4 year old when we are working on numbers and basic addition.

 

[MouseWorshipin]

I was part of that “guessing math” thread so I guess I can just jump right into the same discussion here. The problems that were being discussed were not aimed at teaching kids that their primary math skills are worthless and that “guessing” is the way to go. They were trying to build something called: DEDUCTIVE REASONING. Perhaps you have heard of it. It is a critical skill for higher level mathematics and it is not something that you learn by just memorizing basic math facts. I will agree that there is probably not nearly enough emphasis on basic arithmetic in our schools and that many of our students are woefully unprepared in math and the sciences but just teaching students how to work a problem alone step by step is not going to let them compete with students from China either. Students must developing reasoning, estimation and various other skills in addition to their basic math skills. Math can be abstract and fluid. It does not always have to be a rigid “science”. That does not mean that I think we should teach kids that there is not a right and a wrong answer and it does not mean that we do not need to teach kids the appropriate steps to solve a quadratic equation. However, if we really want our kids to exceed in fields such as mathematics, engineering, chemistry, medicine, etc.. we need to be sure we are building all of their skills – not just rote memorization of facts and steps.

I also disagree that we should make math boring. I will admit that some of it is boring and you just have to work your way through it but we should be showing our kids the applications for math and making it interesting. How else do you show them that math is something worth their time and how do you inspire our next generation of scientists? Even from a very early age I think we should show kids the application of math in their everyday lives. Heck, I even do this with my almost 4 year old when we are working on numbers and basic addition.

I'm all for teaching kids to apply knowledge...after they HAVE it. They cannot apply knowledge they don't have.

Teaching them how to guess at answers is, IMO, silly. But if you think that'll help, have at it. AFTER the kids can DO the math. First, give them the knowledge, then let them apply it.

 

[jgmklmhem]

if we really want our kids to exceed in fields such as mathematics, engineering, chemistry, medicine, etc.. we need to be sure we are building all of their skills – not just rote memorization of facts and steps.

Amen sister!!!! We used to joke about this all the time in grad school. We were not just chemists...we were writers, public speakers, marketing gurus, plumbers, teachers, electricians, mechanics, graphic designers, dish washers, students, debaters, politicans, computer techs etc etc. Many jobs have some aspects of all of these as well. I am just making the point it takes a well rounded person to do well in most of these areas on a consistant basis. I have worked with some chemists who probably had an IQ over 150 but would put a room to sleep trying to get their information across even to those of us who actually care about the material.

The op mentioned this is a liberal arts prep school, which makes this assignment even more palatible because in a true liberal arts environment subject matter should cross the boundries of all classes and make for a well rounded and relevant education.

 

[mickeyboat]

becka - I'm with you on this one. Maybe we are arguing more about balancing out the learning the basics and memorization, with the reasoning aspects of learning. But as far as I am concerned, the reasoning wins out.

I was great at memorization in school. I did very well on tests because I was an expert at taking in information, and spitting it back out. But that didn't help me much in law school, where applying a theory in a creative way to an original set of facts is what a professor was looking for, not regurgitation of the facts of a classic case. I didn't memorize the laws of every state, I learned how to find out what they are and how to apply them to any given situation.

Today's society is different than when I grew up. If I wanted to know how far Pluto is away from the earth, I would go to the library and look in an encyclopedia, or maybe I would have the answer memorized from my science textbook. That information will be helpful to know if, say, I ever go on Jeopardy. But in general, today I would jump on the internet and find the answer in a second. There are so many more resource tools available at our fingertips than there were 10 years ago, and education needs to change to reflect that. It isn't always the information, but what to do with that information, that is important.

Denae

 

[becka]

jgmklmhem - My DH is a chemist and I can remember many hours he spent putting together posters for his research. It did require some creativity to help you stand out and also to make sure you had all of the necessary data in a layout that made sense and was fluid enough to be understood. It was not just the facts that made the presentation a good presentation.

I wonder if those who are so ardently against these teaching methods are mostly in non-scientific fields? I think there is a lack of understanding by those who are not in the fields about what scientists, engineers, etc.. really do and the skills that are required.

 

[chris1gill]

I wonder if those who are so ardently against these teaching methods are mostly in non-scientific fields? I think there is a lack of understanding by those who are not in the fields about what scientists, engineers, etc.. really do and the skills that are required.

I don't think so becka... DH has two degree's, one in Physics, one in Electrical Engineering... I have my degree in computer science & then for yucks I went back to school towards my masters in education so that I could balance my analytical skills out.... We both hold the opinion that children need to learn the basics first.... learning concrete math, concrete science, from there they can move on to expand their horizons... but when you build a house on sand, it generally falls apart... Our kids have very solid foundations from which to work, and that is in large part due to their own genetic makeup... I'm pretty sure both of them just showed up like this....

You know, oddly, the one that has the highest scoring has the hardest time branching out to being creative... Now, if you tell him he must be creative, then he's able to somewhat put the project together, but when he's under the impression it is a facts related "brochure", well, that's what you get... Our DD is amazing creative, and she also borders heavily on concrete matters.... but, again, I think the kids need good solid foundations from which to build....

More than anything I think expectations have to be verbalized to the children, so the children know what exactly it is they are supposed to be doing EXACTLY... from there, if you want to get more creative than the instructions say, that's fine... but don't expect a kid to throw out creativity if you haven't told them that is part of the assignment... I don't know if that makes sense, I think I'm making my point to lengthy so I'll stop.....

 

[MouseWorshipin]

jgmklmhem - My DH is a chemist and I can remember many hours he spent putting together posters for his research. It did require some creativity to help you stand out and also to make sure you had all of the necessary data in a layout that made sense and was fluid enough to be understood. It was not just the facts that made the presentation a good presentation.

I wonder if those who are so ardently against these teaching methods are mostly in non-scientific fields? I think there is a lack of understanding by those who are not in the fields about what scientists, engineers, etc.. really do and the skills that are required.

I'm a nurse. Not a science expert. But when I took Science classes, we never had to scrapbook for them. Neither do doctors, or the guys who solve the puzzles of the body. Be glad next time the life of someone you loved was saved that they knew how, even if they can't make up cute pamphlets.

My cousin is an aeronautical engineer - she designs rocket ships (for real - and her VCR used to blink 12:00, just like the rest of us!). I've never heard her talk about how to make pretty pamphlets. I have an uncle who is an extremely successful engineer, too. But he wouldn't have the foggiest clue about how to do ANYTHING creative (unless you count hanging shelves.)

I have trouble believing there are actual scientists who wouldn't be excited about new discoveries unless they were well-presented. Matter of fact, I don't believe it.

I already know that teachers think presentation is extremely important. Don't have to sell me on that. I just wish they'd think more about the fact that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

 

[MouseWorshipin]

I was great at memorization in school. I did very well on tests because I was an expert at taking in information, and spitting it back out. But that didn't help me much in law school, where applying a theory in a creative way to an original set of facts is what a professor was looking for, not regurgitation of the facts of a classic case. I didn't memorize the laws of every state, I learned how to find out what they are and how to apply them to any given situation.
Denae

My brother is a lawyer. Works for Jones Day, you've probably heard of them if you're in the legal profession. Went to Princeton for undergrad, and UCLA (sunshine) for law school. He learned his math, step by step, with no guessing. He learned to spell by memorizing. And he's in complete agreement about the idea of guessing at math answers as being silly.

He never, ever does anything that requires coloring, making pamphlets, or brochures. They have people who do that for them.

Being able to THINK and scrapbooking (not that I don't LOVE to scrap, I do!) are two completely different things.

Know what? Think I'm getting too worked up. I'm being kinda mean. I'm sorry about that.

Bowing out now.