This just seems WRONG.... Update, NOT so wrong!!!

[MouseWorshipin]

Actually, I think this is a good idea. I certainly wouldn't GRADE on it, but it's a great way to get kids to learn how to learn and figure.

Whenever we interview for a management position, we typically ask a couple seemingly difficult math questions that no one could know the answer to. We're not even that interested if the applicant gets the right answer as much as HOW he got to his/her answer. It shows problem solving abilities and whether they're able to "think outside of the box".

For example one of the questions we may ask is "How many dollar bills laid end-to-end would it take to stretch to the top of the Empire State Building?"

Now, I have no idea how tall it is, nor does it matter. This is an example of a good response... "Well, the Empire State Building is probably 150 stories tall. Each story is probably about 12 feet high, so you've got 1800 feet, plus another 100 feet or so for the pointy part. A dollar bill is about 8" long. 1900' X 12" = 22,800" / 8" = 2850 dollar bills." It shows reasoning ability and the ability to do math.

An example of a bad response would be "I dunno" or "what does that matter" or "What's the Empire State Building" or incorrect addition/multiplicaiton/division, or thinking a dollar is 3' long.

That is all good and well for fun, if it doesn't matter.

But when you need to build a bridge or a building, you need the answer to be accurate. It would not be enough that the engineers had some roundabout idea of how they might come up with an answer.

When miners are trapped underground, someone has to get the plans out and measure the field and say, "Dig here." And coming close doesn't count.

Real math is accurate and precise. If anything in life is NOT a guessing game, it is math.

But I know I'm in the minority - at least in the U.S. of A. - about how math ought to be taught. (But I still think I'm right. )

 

[disneymom3]

MouseWorshipin'--I agree with you wholeheartedly!!

OP, I want to know if the teacher called you back etc....?

 

[declansdad]

ban team/group projects, that's rich. So I suppose that everyone you know works by themselves and have no need for team work skills.

One of the biggest complaints that employers have today is that graduates have no people skills.

 

[teacherforhi]

That is all good and well for fun, if it doesn't matter.

But when you need to build a bridge or a building, you need the answer to be accurate. It would not be enough that the engineers had some roundabout idea of how they might come up with an answer.

When miners are trapped underground, someone has to get the plans out and measure the field and say, "Dig here." And coming close doesn't count.

Real math is accurate and precise. If anything in life is NOT a guessing game, it is math.

But I know I'm in the minority - at least in the U.S. of A. - about how math ought to be taught. (But I still think I'm right. )

There are two sides to math...math calculation is accurate and precise...2+2=4. It always has and it always will.

Math reasoning is the area where guess and check comes in. Who came up with that bridge design? Someone had to use their reasoning skills to come up with a design and test that design. There are many ways to design a bridge. Some will hold more weight than others; some are more durable than others. Someone, somewhere had to come up with those plans.

If there are miners trapped in a mine, someone has to look at those plans and come up with a plan for the best way to rescue them. Which way is most efficient? Which way is fastest?

These are skills that our children are woefully lacking in. Being able to do all the computation problems in the world does you absolutely no good if you can't apply that knowledge to the real world.

 

[MouseWorshipin]

There are two sides to math...math calculation is accurate and precise...2+2=4. It always has and it always will.

Math reasoning is the area where guess and check comes in. Who came up with that bridge design? Someone had to use their reasoning skills to come up with a design and test that design. There are many ways to design a bridge. Some will hold more weight than others; some are more durable than others. Someone, somewhere had to come up with those plans.

If there are miners trapped in a mine, someone has to look at those plans and come up with a plan for the best way to rescue them. Which way is most efficient? Which way is fastest?

These are skills that our children are woefully lacking in. Being able to do all the computation problems in the world does you absolutely no good if you can't apply that knowledge to the real world.

If the kids are taught the math, then the ones who are able and choose to do so will apply it when they are older.

But they can never apply knowledge they don't have.

If the schools get better and American kids start being as good at Math as Chinese kids, then I'll say, "OK, schools, have at your creative, or guessing math." Until then, I think they ought to teach the kids HOW to do the math, and quit worrying about being creative.

But, again, I'm in the minority. I understand that others have other viewpoints.

That's just mine.

 

[chris1gill]

There are two sides to math...math calculation is accurate and precise...2+2=4. It always has and it always will.

Math reasoning is the area where guess and check comes in. Who came up with that bridge design? Someone had to use their reasoning skills to come up with a design and test that design. There are many ways to design a bridge. Some will hold more weight than others; some are more durable than others. Someone, somewhere had to come up with those plans.

Yes, but math reasoning should lead to proper, accurate math calculation... You know, I'd be very hard pressed to think of a time in the last ten years when a kid/young adult cashier could actually count back change to me... I can think of many times where they didn't put in the right dollar amount that I gave them, and the cash register then couldn't tell them how much money to give me & THEY COULDN'T FIGURE IT OUT.... It's all this fuzzy math to thank for that....

But anyhow, I digress... I heard back from the teacher, and we will speak more tomorrow, but right now I am focusing in on his presentation that was scored at a zero... Apparently the teacher believes DS stood there while the partner gave the whole presentation... Well, that would make sense since she dominated the whole project until he finally just told the teacher & they agreed he would do his own... but I know he did his own, and he got graded on his own, so why does the teacher remember the partner giving the presentation? I have no idea, so I have to wait for DS to wake up... to ask once more, WERE WORDS COMING FROM HIS MOUTH when he was standing up in front of the class... You just have to know how to ask the right questions with these kids

Please, nobody get me wrong, this is a wonderful lady, but she just isn't able to tune into my DS & he's just not able to tune into her... he really is a very black/white very literal concrete thinking kid... Now if the directions had specifically said to make the project look creative, perhaps she would have had a better shot of DS turning in something that looked creative

I totally had to laugh about that story of the shadow box & the furnishings to scale.... first being told to use things from home, but then if you did, you got a lower grade... that would happen in this class DS has I think....

P.S. MouseWorshipin, I'm totally with you & I'm certain DS & kids like him are too

 

[MouseWorshipin]

To be fair, it isn't the fault of the teachers. They are told this stuff in college. We had one that taught math by MAKING APPLESAUCE. We cut the apple in half...that's a half! Turned out this method had been taught to her in college.

They really believe that this stuff will help. I don't doubt their intentions.

 

[MouseWorshipin]

ban team/group projects, that's rich. So I suppose that everyone you know works by themselves and have no need for team work skills.

One of the biggest complaints that employers have today is that graduates have no people skills.

Someday you and I are going to agree on something and you'll see: oihjafg;;;;;og;jnsavihaza; because I will pass out and bang my head on the computer!

The classroom isn't the place for it. The kids should be instructed on how to do math, step by step, during math class. They should be drilled on facts and rules.

Teamwork can be taught by playing a sport or joing the Girl Scouts, or having friends.

I'll even give in and say the schools can teach teamwork - after they have kids who are educated.

 

[Planogirl]

I think that group projects are very valuable if closely monitored by the teacher. It's great for kids to learn how to work well with others particularly on big projects. They'll certainly have to do so in college and in the workplace.

 

[Imzadi]

Sorry your DS went through such a tough time. Really reiterate to him, the points deducted aren't what this is ultimately about for him. He stuck to his integrity, even if the teacher was a jerk. That goes miles further in life than 10 points in class. He should never be silent about his integrity again. It will cost him more than 10 points.

As for being creative with Science, I guess you have to watch a whole lot of Star Trek to understand you can be very creative with the application of science.

 

[chris1gill]

Imzadi, I wish it was only ten points, it was 48 points <gulp>.... the ten points are just from the presentation that he says he did & she says he didn't 38 points are from lack of creativity apparently...

But you do raise a good point, the personal integrity that he showed is more valuable than the grade, but then again if he fails the class all the personal integrity in the world won't save him....

The teacher's not being a jerk by any stretch, it's just her grading style... Coincidentally she was watching all the groups & did not notice a problem... DS was talking with his partner often & the teacher thought that was translating into work.... I can see why the teacher thought they were working well... it just so happens the partner just ignored everything DS said....

I'm just hoping DS can pull out enough gusto to at least now get a solid C+ in the class for the year... As I've said to him all year for this particular class, grades aren't everything & I will be the last one to come down on him because he's not creative in science...

 

[declansdad]

Someday you and I are going to agree on something and you'll see: oihjafg;;;;;og;jnsavihaza; because I will pass out and bang my head on the computer!

I think we agreed to disagree once.

The classroom isn't the place for it. The kids should be instructed on how to do math, step by step, during math class. They should be drilled on facts and rules.

You need to use more than drill to educate today. For whatever reason the old system of drills and rote isn't always effective by itself. You need to be morew creative.

Teamwork can be taught by playing a sport or joing the Girl Scouts, or having friends.

Not everyone does these things.

You also made a point about teachers learning these things in college. While that is true there is another reason for some of these crazy things like creative spelling. It is the governement official that too much time on his/her hands. They went to a conference and came back with all these "great" ideas. They then convince their bosses too change the curriculum because that is the way to do it now.


I see everyday the consequences of some of these programs. I teach business at the college level and some of the things I see and hear make me cringe. I have students that no idea how to spell, to build conherent sentences and arguments, and use basic math. Some days you need to get creative to get your message across.

 

[disneymom3]

To be fair, it isn't the fault of the teachers. They are told this stuff in college. We had one that taught math by MAKING APPLESAUCE. We cut the apple in half...that's a half! Turned out this method had been taught to her in college.

They really believe that this stuff will help. I don't doubt their intentions.

Well, bummer. Now you lost me. I actually totally agree with finding different methods of presenting material. Kids learn in different ways and you have to present the same info differently in order to reach them all. For instance, DD would totally get the half concept from circles on paper that were shaded. DS would look at you like you were speaking a foreign language. The apple thing, he would get.

I also think that many issues that come up as crazy (like Whole Language) are very much not the fault of the teachers but the bureaucracy involved. My sis was teaching first grade when WL was big in CA. She refused to use it exclusively and insisted on teaching phonics alongside it. Her principal tried to get her fired and it took a hearing with the school board and her union rep in order to keep her job AND be allowed to teach phonics in her classroom. (She was not trying to get out of teaching WL altogether, just wanted to ADD phonics.)

 

[Marla Hellwig]

Before my daughter's spring break (back in March), her high school science teacher said for extra credit they could turn in a 2,000 word report on a famous scientist - she picked Maria and Pierre Currie - turned in 2,405 word report on them first day back - teacher laughed at her for doing - it was a April's Fool joke - even though the day it was assigned in March - she still hasn't received any extra credit - teacher isn't returning phone calls/emails

In her World History class she has had several "group projects" to do this year - her group doesn't care about grades - just taking up space - but that teacher has finally caught on that my daughter is doing all of the work - but it only took her 3 or 4 projects to catch on

 

[Skatermom23]

Partner projects should be outlawed unless 100% done IN school and the teacher closely monitoring the contributions of each child, i.e. each child picks a specific part of the project to do and does that part. No one should be forced to be graded on someone else's work. My twins always get stuck with the kids that won't help on anything because they are good students and THEY get stuck doing everything.

Oh I agree! My 15DS learned this lesson early in Junior High. Just last month he finished a group project all on his own and then sent it out to the other boys and told them to memorize their parts for the presentation. I felt so bad watching him try day after day to get together with the other 3 boys in the group to work on this thing. What gets me is that the parents wouldn't even make an effort to get the kids together.
Whenever my kids tell me they need to go to so and so's house to do a project, I let them do that before chores. I just don't get it. Anyway he spent 5 hours and completed the entire project on his own and all the boys got an A...the other three did nothing. Is that right?

 

[jgmklmhem]

Ok maybe I am missing something with all of your bashing about being creative and science. Science is creative. Where do you think all of these advancements come from. It isn't from running the same old experiments time and time again. It is from being creative and thinking outside the box to solve a problem or create a new product. We were taught in school to not do the same old science fair project people have been doing for years. We were told to try and come up with new and different ideas. I am a Chemist and I would say most of my day is spent trying to come up with new ways to do things or create a new product that will get whatever job done better or get a job done that has never been done before. Science is not all about learning facts it is about learning how to think differently, examine things closely and use that knowledge to advance whatever goal. You do have to know these facts to accomplish these goals but the thinking pattern is also very important as well.

As for group projects...I agree. If they cannot be done at school then they are not a good idea in many cases.

 

[Hannathy]

Your son's teacher is actually a lot more flexible than my DD's 5th gr. teacher. She was put in a group project like your son's and the other 2 girls were "joined at the hip" and only wanted to do what each other wanted to do not ever considering my DD's point. When she complained to her teacher her teacher said it was her fault and that she needed to learn how to get her point across no matter what and no she could not do the project herself, and no the teacher would not speak to the girls. If she did she would not accept it and she would get a 0. We spoke to our DD and said just go along with them let them assign you a part and do that to the best of your ability and your way and that she would be in similar situations all her life and the sooner she learned to deal with it the better, But not to stop expressing her oppinions just knowing when to go along. It seems to have worked years later she is always getting complemented on how well she works with others and what a good leader she is. She was student director and stage manager for the musical this year and was the first one they ever let actually run the production back stage( the Director even left the building during one of the productions we learned later) It is hard but I think kids do need to learn to give Teachers or bosses what they want. Just give him an ear at home to rant and rave about his teacher to then give him a hug.

About the creativity I can understand a bit of this, even researchers need to know how to "sell" their ideas to get grants. Now I agree it shouldn't be on actual artistic ability but creative is ok.

I am confused about the presentation if he did his own project why was he presenting with the girl? That's what I would want to know. Did he show you what he presented -chart, pictures, power point presentation, ask him to do the presentation for you. Then you'll have a better idea of what went on when the teacher gets back to you.

 

[golfgal]

Ok maybe I am missing something with all of your bashing about being creative and science. Science is creative. Where do you think all of these advancements come from. It isn't from running the same old experiments time and time again. It is from being creative and thinking outside the box to solve a problem or create a new product. We were taught in school to not do the same old science fair project people have been doing for years. We were told to try and come up with new and different ideas. I am a Chemist and I would say most of my day is spent trying to come up with new ways to do things or create a new product that will get whatever job done better or get a job done that has never been done before. Science is not all about learning facts it is about learning how to think differently, examine things closely and use that knowledge to advance whatever goal. You do have to know these facts to accomplish these goals but the thinking pattern is also very important as well.

As for group projects...I agree. If they cannot be done at school then they are not a good idea in many cases.

She doesn't mean creative like thinking out of the box creativity she means like Scrapbooking your science report so it looks pretty creativity. That is NOT going to help you discover then next major advancement in cancer treatment.

 

[phillybeth]

Ok maybe I am missing something with all of your bashing about being creative and science. Science is creative. Where do you think all of these advancements come from. It isn't from running the same old experiments time and time again. It is from being creative and thinking outside the box to solve a problem or create a new product.

ITA! The words you want to hear from a true scientist are, "Hey, I wonder what would happen if...!" That is when science is taking place.

 

[jgmklmhem]

ITA! The words you want to hear from a true scientist are, "Hey, I wonder what would happen if...!" That is when science is taking place.

On a lighter note it can also be the time to run very fast in the opposite direction.