This is just so sad,,and makes me ask WHY would someone do this?? I don't call it 'playing'??

[Allison]

My Coworker just commented on a very good point. People are making a big deal of this because it happened on a cruise ship. But in essence a cruise ship is just like a high-rise building and unfortunately having children fall from windows or balconies from buildings is not unheard of

Eric Clapton's son tragic accident comes to mind.

 

[EMom]

The lawsuit lottery rears its head. The grandfather used extremely poor judgment, the child paid the price, and the almost instantaneous reaction is to go after Royal Caribbean? SMH.

 

[cabanafrau]

Sometimes lawsuits are filed, even for monetary damages, yet in the end what the plaintiff asks isn't really financial, but more a change of policies, practices, design, etc. Money won't be the balm to ease anyone's pain in this one.

 

[Searc]

Family is claiming negligence in the part of the cruise ship now, and here’s why:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ibbean-cruise-ship-says-fell-open-window.html

Slimeball lawyer.

 

[LittleMissMagic]

Realistically, the cruise line will probably settle. It's in the best interest of the company to be apologetic to the family in this tragic situation. Remember that Disney settled for the alligator incident at the Grand Floridian beach a few years back? Disney wasn't really at fault - they had signs warning not to swim.... but with it being dark outside, the beach open, and no physical barrier, accidents happen. [*CORRECTION: The Graves family did not sue Disney. They started the Lane Thomas Foundation in their son's memory.]

I work in architecture and safety is a huge part of my job. In addition to complying with code and ensuring guardrails exist where required and are the appropriate height, you have to put yourself in the headspace of the user. In one situation we had a railing above an atrium space, and the proposed design called for a black floor-to-ceiling stage curtain in front of the railing, blocking off the atrium below for lighting and privacy. They also wanted bar-height tables in front of the railing (obscured by the curtain). This posed a safety hazard because the curtain blocked the view of the atrium below, providing a false sense of security - if someone were to lean on the curtain expecting a wall beneath, they would lose their balance and potentially fall. Add to that bar-height tables.... you're taller than the railing now and if a child were to stand on the bar stool, they could take a tumble and potentially fall 20 feet to the atrium below.

So in this situation, the glass is providing a false sense of security. In the night photo of the crime scene, it's hard to distinguish between the open panel and the closed panel. Large operable windows on an 11th-story pool deck pose a safety risk. Royal Caribbean should assess the situation - perhaps add locks to the operable windows. If they're open during the day, the crew could shut them at dusk.

 

[mousefan73]

Jezus will we all now have to siffer in glass enclosures in the future because of somebody’s poor judgement.

 

[mjkacmom]

My Coworker just commented on a very good point. People are making a big deal of this because it happened on a cruise ship. But in essence a cruise ship is just like a high-rise building and unfortunately having children fall from windows or balconies from buildings is not unheard of

We get NYC news as our local news, and reports of kids falling out of windows happens.

 

[mousefan73]

Realistically, the cruise line will probably settle. It's in the best interest of the company to be apologetic to the family in this tragic situation. Remember that Disney settled for the alligator incident at the Grand Floridian beach a few years back? Disney wasn't really at fault - they had signs warning not to swim.... but with it being dark outside, the beach open, and no physical barrier, accidents happen.

I work in architecture and safety is a huge part of my job. In addition to complying with code and ensuring guardrails exist where required and are the appropriate height, you have to put yourself in the headspace of the user. In one situation we had a railing above an atrium space, and the proposed design called for a black floor-to-ceiling stage curtain in front of the railing, blocking off the atrium below for lighting and privacy. They also wanted bar-height tables in front of the railing (obscured by the curtain). This posed a safety hazard because the curtain blocked the view of the atrium below, providing a false sense of security - if someone were to lean on the curtain expecting a wall beneath, they would lose their balance and potentially fall. Add to that bar-height tables.... you're taller than the railing now and if a child were to stand on the bar stool, they could take a tumble and potentially fall 20 feet to the atrium below.

So in this situation, the glass is providing a false sense of security. In the night photo of the crime scene, it's hard to distinguish between the open panel and the closed panel. Large operable windows on an 11th-story pool deck pose a safety risk. Royal Caribbean should assess the situation - perhaps add locks to the operable windows. If they're open during the day, the crew could shut them at dusk.

I am sure royal will take a look. I see where the curtain could give a false sense of safety. But in this case an open window should give a true sense of caution. In this case I assume the open window was at the same height as the outside deck. Here the grandpa breeched the safety line. He put his grandchild in a danger zone. Granted it’s horrible how he for a split second saw something he assumed is there. But it was his choice. I really wonder how an open window, at an approved height, with no danger obstacles ( chairs to step on) can be viewed as a liable thing. The child was held up beyond any threshold the child could acheive on their own. If I were lawyer I would argue that this grown, stable mind man put the child in danger. But who know, the law often baffles me

 

[wgeo]

This story has been so "colored" in our minds by the initial clickbait headlines about "dangling". I truly wonder if the very first stories had been simply "toddler falls to their death" if people's opinions would be different.

 

[lovin'fl]

Any of you familiar with CC forums? I wonder why they are closing every thread on this incident. They have allowed threads on other cruise ship deaths, even the murder one (Manzanares). Odd they are shutting down discussion of this one.

At any rate...sad case.

 

[LittleMissMagic]

I am sure royal will take a look. I see where the curtain could give a false sense of safety. But in this case an open window should give a true sense of caution. In this case I assume the open window was at the same height as the outside deck. Here the grandpa breeched the safety line. He put his grandchild in a danger zone. Granted it’s horrible how he for a split second saw something he assumed is there. But it was his choice. I really wonder how an open window, at an approved height, with no danger obstacles ( chairs to step on) can be viewed as a liable thing. The child was held up beyond any threshold the child could acheive on their own. As a lawyer I would argue that this grown, stable mind man put the child in danger.

As the owner, you have to consider that when your guests are on vacation, they tend to always carry with them a false sense of security. Another example of my work - the bridge over a lagoon which has a nightly fountain show. The guardrail had a flat top - about 4" deep. Parents would lift up their young children up and sit them on the rail, feet dangling.... about 12 feet above the lagoon below. I think the parents must have been prioritizing their children's view of the show and not considering the safety risk. Thankfully there were no incidents, and we noticed the safety risk and installed a scalloped piece of metal as an extension above the guard - making it no longer a flat place for child booties.

The primary goal when designing public space is creating a safe environment and remove hazards when discovered so that the owner doesn't have to say "we're not liable."

 

[wgeo]

Any of you familiar with CC forums? I wonder why they are closing every thread on this incident. They have allowed threads on other cruise ship deaths, even the murder one (Manzanares). Odd they are shutting down discussion of this one.

At any rate...sad case.

Yeah, you gotta have a thick skin to post on the CC forums. It can get a little crazy over there. No idea why they're shutting down these threads, but I imagine they could get pretty bad.

 

[Magical2017]

Realistically, the cruise line will probably settle. It's in the best interest of the company to be apologetic to the family in this tragic situation. Remember that Disney settled for the alligator incident at the Grand Floridian beach a few years back? Disney wasn't really at fault - they had signs warning not to swim.... but with it being dark outside, the beach open, and no physical barrier, accidents happen.

I work in architecture and safety is a huge part of my job. In addition to complying with code and ensuring guardrails exist where required and are the appropriate height, you have to put yourself in the headspace of the user. In one situation we had a railing above an atrium space, and the proposed design called for a black floor-to-ceiling stage curtain in front of the railing, blocking off the atrium below for lighting and privacy. They also wanted bar-height tables in front of the railing (obscured by the curtain). This posed a safety hazard because the curtain blocked the view of the atrium below, providing a false sense of security - if someone were to lean on the curtain expecting a wall beneath, they would lose their balance and potentially fall. Add to that bar-height tables.... you're taller than the railing now and if a child were to stand on the bar stool, they could take a tumble and potentially fall 20 feet to the atrium below.

So in this situation, the glass is providing a false sense of security. In the night photo of the crime scene, it's hard to distinguish between the open panel and the closed panel. Large operable windows on an 11th-story pool deck pose a safety risk. Royal Caribbean should assess the situation - perhaps add locks to the operable windows. If they're open during the day, the crew could shut them at dusk.

I agree that RCL will most likely make changes, fault or no fault. Someone in a FB cruise group posted that their DCL ship had an open verandah on deck 12. I have no idea if this is true, but I do wonder if other cruise lines will make changes. With the sheer number of people cruising, it seems that falls are usually due to passenger negligence. My heart goes out to this family.

 

[LongLiveRafiki]

I have never been on a cruise ship, can someone who has explain if it is possible to mistake an open window for a pane of glass?
Common sense tells me that it isn't possible, but is there something unique about the windows used on a cruise ship that I am unaware of?

I can't imagine what the family is going through. They lost their baby and the one responsible is your own father (or FIL), that can't be an easy reality to grasp at this time. I understand they would try to seek answers and blame elsewhere instead of with him, but I think it is pretty far fetched to think there was a glass window in front of you when there wasn't and blame the cruise ship for that.

I've never been on a cruise, but just this morning I mistook a missing window pane as the glass being there. We had contractors out to fix a broken window pane in the garage and a couple other things. After a while, they left to get more materials. Both DH and I looked over at the window and commented on how great the new glass looked. I went in for a closer look and it wasn't until I went to tap on it to see if they used actual glass or plexiglass that I realized there was nothing there.

I think it's completely plausible that the grandfather could have thought the window was closed. I do find it incredibly irresponsible to put a child in a window that high or think that it's okay to let a child tap on glass that could move or break, but am also guilty of my own fair share of irresponsible and reckless behavior. Thankfully nothing that had such a devastating outcome, but still, no one is perfect.

 

[Imzadi]

Family is claiming negligence in the part of the cruise ship now, and here’s why:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ibbean-cruise-ship-says-fell-open-window.html

OMG, they actually have a pic of the little girl against the glass at her brother's hockey match. I thought it was a very weak argument & excuse to say she used to bang on glass windows. Then they showed the photo of her at the glass.

I did not need the visuals of her. She was an adorable little girl. Now, this will be stuck in my head & heart more than it is now.

 

[Imzadi]

Windows on the pool/lido deck are usually opened by crew members in good weather.

Probably not any more. There will probably window bars put up. Or they will be sealed off now, due to this one in a gazillion accident.

 

[Imzadi]

I have been on these ships where they open the windows by the pool area for ventilation. You can tell the window is open, just like any other window that is open, anywhere. That seems like a lawyer made up statement.

The girl's mother used to be a deputy prosecutor. Even in her grief, she's thinking like a lawyer.

Now that I see the photo someone posted, it looks like all of those other windows are shut, but it looks like the glass is missing or the window open on only one of those squares. So I'm thinking the grandfather was holding her up to see outside, not realizing that particular spot was open with no glass, and she fell through. Maybe with his age poor eye sight also played into that.

In the Daily Mirror news link below, they show pics of the grandfather. He's wearing glasses. So, his eyesight may have played a part. Also, since he's wearing glasses, he may not have thought the sheen of the glass windows was his glasses. Or the sun was shining in such a way, there was no sheen on that particular window. Also, if he was holding her in front of him so she could bang on the glass, she might have obscured his view. He simply didn't see there was no glass.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ibbean-cruise-ship-says-fell-open-window.html

 

[HopperFan]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ibbean-cruise-ship-says-fell-open-window.html

You can see the area which is open deck along all the pools from the dining room in back to the spa in front. ALL of the walls on both sides have these sliding windows. The height is about the same as the railings along the open decks and the balconies. Same care should be taken.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fa...bout-cause-of-death/ar-AAE4ZLK?ocid=ientp_edu

This link says the window was in a children's area. And that he lifted her to it, thinking it was closed glass (and clear glass is easy to mistake for open window), the child went to bang on it and fell out the window.

I don't think "having a lawyer" is a sign of guilt. Lawyers were probably contacting them as soon as the news hit.

IF the grandparent and child were in a children's area and IF the window was open, I certainly understand it being seen as negligence on the part of the cruise line.

So not the dining area .......... but there also is not a designated children's area as it leads one to believe. This deck is ALL the pools and hot tubs. There is a childrens water play area in the CENTER of the ship. Right by it are multiple pools and hot tubs. The entire area is surrounded by hundreds of lounge chairs. Where this happened was under the upper deck that circles the outside and provides lounging with shade. There are multiple rows of loungers open to anyone. There are no walls or designated children's area. Kids are everywhere, adults are everywhere. You grab a chair where you can. Our cruise on Freedom we actually used lounges right there across the deck from the kid play area.

ALL windows along this deck on both sides have the potential of being open. The little girl could have easily run up and banged on the lower glass that goes up high. She was lifted above that safety level.

Don't get me wrong I am sure they are all devastated .... but this was a bad decision and not reflective of anything Royal did wrong.

 

[PrincessShmoo]

I have only sailed on Disney Cruise line, they don't have windows like Royal Caribbean that open.
The pool deck is completely enclosed with glass that doesn't open.

Yes, the windows on DCL don't open, but there are open, ventilation areas at the end of each section. You can see them (the vertical piped area) in this picture. The end is open, just blocked by the pipes

 

[brentm77]

Continuing the discussion from the closed post on the Cruise Line forum:

In response to tinkerone and T & R:

What actual harm? We will never know as the child will not get to grow up. Maybe she WAS the person to cure cancer, first woman to Mars, author of a book that will change the world. We just will never know. There is a consequence to everything.

The law can't possibly take into account such pure speculations. The same argument could be used to let anyone off the hook - what if a victim would have grown up to be the next Hitler? Than the perpetrator did society a favor. Instead, the law should value every human life equally.

Another opinion is that if your conduct results in the injury/death of another, you shall be held accountable according to the law. If an investigation determines his conduct meets the elements of the crime, I would expect his case to be forwarded to a grand jury for indictment just as it would be for anyone else. We don't only charge/convict/sentence people as deterrence.

I am not arguing that manslaughter doesn't have its place.

I addressed the punitive argument - that is the retributive part of criminal theory discussed in my comment. There is simply no good to come from punishing a grandfather in this circumstance. Society is better off being merciful than seeking vengeance with no purpose.

There is a principle in the U.S. called "prosecutorial discretion." Just because something meets all the elements of a crime, does not mean a prosecutor must pursue charges, and in fact, prosecutors choose not to pursue charges in a significant portion of cases that come before them. The idea that someone must be punished every time a person dies at the hands of another is a merciless rule that won't make society better. Every single case should be looked at closely and criminal prosecution should serve to make society a better place. None of your arguments convince me that would be the case here, although manslaughter charges benefit society in many other cases.

Finally, I put zero stock in the the personal injury lawyer is saying in public mere days after the death. The family would be in significant shock and is not even in an appropriate state of mind to hire an attorney. There is no indication which family member retained him and if he is actually representing the views of the grandfather at this point. The family is in pain and looking to alleviate it through blame of someone other than the grandfather - it isn't right and appears misplaced, but I don't see how it warrants bringing a manslaughter charge at this point.