The Vaccine Discussion Thread

[Sykes]

I disagree with you I don't think anyone's views on Americans giving up personal freedoms are based on their political aspirations. Even if it was they would be a fool to back down.

I won’t dig too much deeper because it gets too off topic, but we’re all constantly being manipulated by every politician (especially those on the national stage), regardless of party affiliation. Every public statement is a calculated move to support political aspirations. That is especially true on this topic.

 

[DCLMP]

I won’t dig too much deeper because it gets too off topic, but we’re all constantly being manipulated by every politician (especially those on the national stage), regardless of party affiliation. Every public statement is a calculated move to support political aspirations. That is especially true on this topic.

True. but they generally stay true to their base and I don't see anyone taking a 180 on this. Whichever way you turn you are going to make 50% of the population angry. In case you haven't noticed there is not a lot of middle ground on most things these days and vaccines mandates are no different.

 

[JulieBeeRN]

Just my opinion, but I think that anything is possible with a virus. How long will immunity last, whether is natural or from a vaccine? Who knows because viruses certainly love to mutate and come at us in 50 different ways.

 

[mevelandry]

So are the chances of an asymptomatic person spreading the disease. There is also a very, very small chance of a person who's already had covid getting it again and spreading the disease.

If my memory is correct, data shows that asymptomatic people are more or less 40% less likely to spread the disease than symptomatic people? I believe the number of classes shut down this year (tons!!!) because of outbreaks... Kids tend to be less symptomatic to begin with... So I feel it is a good example of that.

From what I understand, it depends on the variant: P.1 seems to reinfect past cases more easily and spread more easily as well.

 

[braysmommy]

I guess I will ask it as plainly as I can.................Do you believe DCL should be allowed to restrict unvaccinated individuals from boarding their ships??? YES or NO?

Yes, as a private company they have the right to require proof of vaccination. We are booked on next years EBTA that leaves from FL and I can see our European ports requiring vaccination which I'd be fine with.

 

[GatorMomInNC]

I suspect this will be true. DH and I took the vaccine bc at our age we felt the probability of serious covid was greater than the probability of an unexpected, serious vaccine side effect emerging in the long-term. However, our children are under 11, and I find it difficult to justify giving them a vaccine without long-term safety data to eliminate the virtually non-existent risk of serious covid for their ages.

I am closely following safety studies and I really would like to feel comfortable giving our kids the vaccine---we are an expat family with a lot of expected international travel over the next couple years so it would certainly simplify our lives.

I remain confident and hopeful the vaccine (we chose Pfizer) is safe, but there remains the reality that no one can truly say for certain what the long-term data will show until time passes.

This is anecdotal...but all except one of our close friends have expressed vaccine hesitancy regarding their children. These are people who took the covid vaccine themselves and are not "anti-vaxxers." Unless a new variant arises which proves dangerous for children, I think many parents will be slow to get covid vaccines for their young kids in the coming months.

Obviously some people are never vaxxers and think that Bill Gates is implanting chips in them, etc. Those people are never going to get vaccinated, and really, there is no rational discussion to be had and frankly I can't take their objections to the vaccine seriously. The interesting aspect, to me, is people who have educated, thoughtful, and mixed reactions or feelings about it, like yourself.

I rushed to get my son (age 13) the vaccine on the first day it was available, as did several of my friends and neighbors. And I spoke to a friend yesterday who had her kids get the shot... but SHE hasn't gotten it yet. She caught Covid last year, and then a few months later a previously benign heart condition turned serious (doctors are not sure it is related) and she had to have heart surgery a few months ago. This is someone who was a triathlete, running 15-20 miles the week before she got Covid. She got winded immediately after running a mile after she caught it, so she had to quit running. She also has had some other medical issues after the surgery, so she is not getting the shot (we didn't go into details, but I assumed it had to do with being immuno-compromised). But as I said, she had her children get the vaccine.

My concern was even though I was vaccinated, I might get it and give it to my son. I am concerned about long term effects on anyone who gets it, even children. I personally know "long haulers" who are very young, very healthy pre-covid and it makes me nervous. There are all kinds of articles out there (everyone can google, I won't post them) about pediatricians seeing long term effects in kids, especially fatigue. I had mono when I was a teen and I swear it took me YEARS to get over the chronic fatigue. I am hoping to avoid something similar with my child and covid, esp. since so little is known.

Even though my risk is lower to get it since vaccinated, I am still concerned that I will catch it. I know of at least 3 people personally who have gotten Covid after being vaccinated- my very ill, elderly father in law in a nursing home got it right after being vaccinated- it swept through the nursing home. Everyone had only mild symptoms (and again, these are all people confined to a nursing home, so that was a miracle). My neighbor told me yesterday that he and his wife, both fully vaccinated, caught Covid a couple weeks ago. She is an ER nurse. She lost her sense of smell/taste so was tested, so then he was tested. He said he would not have known he had it but for the test.

Anyway, I find it fascinating how this is playing out around the country and choices people are making. I had a co-worker who early on was skeptical about getting the vaccine but just recently decided to get it now that so many millions have gotten it in the last 6 mos. with such positive effect on the number of cases nationwide.

It makes you wonder how 10-20 years from now what we will know looking back on all of this. We are all guinea pigs in some way - either getting the vaccine or getting covid, we won't know for a while which was better or worse. But I've seen very little negative about getting the vaccine and a lot of negative about getting covid, so I gladly, enthusiastically, opted for being a vaccinated guinea pig

 

[mevelandry]

Ok, maybe Canada’s extensive delay wasn’t such a bad idea after all!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1394759359918313473

I still think Health Canada should reduce the delay (at least for vulnerable people) a little bit though... (Good news is that I was told that it’s already happening!) ...

Currently seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[fishingfool999]

Here in San Diego, Sharp Medical Group started vaccinating Cruise Crew with the 1st dose of Pfizer shots. Maybe Test Cruises will start this Summer here in CA?

 

[tink2424]

They recommended adoption of the rule today and indicated that the EU has full agreement on it, so we pretty much know what the official rule will be unless a bunch of MEPs change their minds at the last minute. The only material change from the text I posted is that they changed the case threshold for a country to be considered low risk (75 cases per 100,000 over the last 14 days).

You are correct that eventually the US may qualify as low risk, but we still have quite a ways to go.

Edit: They just published the full text of the rule that should be the final version: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CONSIL:ST_8822_2021_REV_1&from=EN

From an article on Yahoo it seems like the rules still could vary by country and may include a testing option for some countries even while a country is listed at high risk. And I also firmly believe that very soon (within weeks at most) we will hit the metrics needed to be placed on the low risk country list and then these may not be needed at all either.

The timing of the reopening is unclear pending final approval expected later this week by the Council of the European Union. EU officials have been saying for weeks that summer travel will be allowed, but no dates have been released, and many of the details will be up to the 27 member countries.

The lifting of travel restrictions isn't mandatory and won't come with a timetable, meaning travelers could face a hodgepodge of European travel rules and restrictions well into the summer.

Some countries, including Greece, Croatia, Iceland, Italy, France and Germany, have already started to reopen or plan to reopen soon to vaccinated visitors and/or those with a negative coronavirus test. Rules vary by country.

They would also have to challenge Florida law. I don't think any of the cruise lines will require them out of Florida. What happens in other countries who knows, but I don't believe all Europeans are onboard with vaccine passports. It's probably just as divisive over there as it is here.

If the cruise lines were going to challenge Florida. Don’t you think they would have done so by now. May is almost in the books and July is coming up quickly. So far we’ve had one cruise line threaten to leave Florida because they can’t require vaccines. They were basically told not to let the door hit them in the rear on the way out. The largest cruiselines doesn’t want to mandate vaccines. Other then that we know nothing.
Maybe the cruiselines would win in court, but that certainly would delay the restart.

We don't know that they aren't challenging them, maybe DCL is just acting slightly more mature than other lines and having behind the scenes conversations with the state, instead of airing it all out in the court of public opinion.

If push came to shove, I don't think Disney of all companies would go on TV and threaten to leave FL. I think if they decide they must mandate vaccines, they would just set the mandate and put the ball back in FL's court. If I was the governor, I would think long and hard about how it will appear in the press if I sued Disney when his whole image is set around building jobs in FL.

That said, I am not saying they will do this, or even that they should. I merely mention as a hypothetical. Trust me, we won't see DCL threaten anything. They will either do it, or not do it.

At the end of the day there are very few businesses that want to deal with checking people's health status before allowing them in or to use their business. These cruise lines don't want to have any part of checking vaccine status. They will if it is required by the country(ies) that they are going to just like they did before for any country travel requirements.

And I would think that Disney would make their unhappiness known like they did with California not allowing Disneyland to open. I think they would make it very known but I don't think they want to fight this fight. Like I said in the paragraph above I don't think they want any part in checking vaccine status or testing status unless it will be required by the countries they visit. Furthermore we have just about beat the virus back and we are unlikely to have any great surges that would make us a high risk country. We will be more at risk of bringing something back from other countries than bringing something to those countries very soon.

I suspect this will be true. DH and I took the vaccine bc at our age we felt the probability of serious covid was greater than the probability of an unexpected, serious vaccine side effect emerging in the long-term. However, our children are under 11, and I find it difficult to justify giving them a vaccine without long-term safety data to eliminate the virtually non-existent risk of serious covid for their ages.

I am closely following safety studies and I really would like to feel comfortable giving our kids the vaccine---we are an expat family with a lot of expected international travel over the next couple years so it would certainly simplify our lives.

I remain confident and hopeful the vaccine (we chose Pfizer) is safe, but there remains the reality that no one can truly say for certain what the long-term data will show until time passes.

This is anecdotal...but all except one of our close friends have expressed vaccine hesitancy regarding their children. These are people who took the covid vaccine themselves and are not "anti-vaxxers." Unless a new variant arises which proves dangerous for children, I think many parents will be slow to get covid vaccines for their young kids in the coming months.

You are very much not alone. I work in clinical research and the MD I work most closely with just recently got the vaccine for himself (he felt comfortable after the large amount of people vaccinated) but he is very much against having his kids vaccinated until there is much more safety data and most specifically long-term (more than 1 year) of safety data.

The risk/benefit ratio for kids & even younger adults differs from if you are older than 40 and of course if you are older than 60. That is something that each parent has to evaluate for themselves.

 

[mevelandry]

Interesting Vaccine News from Canada: the government authorized a budget of 4,8M $ for a study(Dahlousie University of NS) regarding the possibility of using different vaccines for shot #1 and shot #2. They will also study the differences in various delays between the two shots. 1300 participants to the study.

 

[DCLMP]

From an article on Yahoo it seems like the rules still could vary by country and may include a testing option for some countries even while a country is listed at high risk. And I also firmly believe that very soon (within weeks at most) we will hit the metrics needed to be placed on the low risk country list and then these may not be needed at all either.

The timing of the reopening is unclear pending final approval expected later this week by the Council of the European Union. EU officials have been saying for weeks that summer travel will be allowed, but no dates have been released, and many of the details will be up to the 27 member countries.

The lifting of travel restrictions isn't mandatory and won't come with a timetable, meaning travelers could face a hodgepodge of European travel rules and restrictions well into the summer.

Some countries, including Greece, Croatia, Iceland, Italy, France and Germany, have already started to reopen or plan to reopen soon to vaccinated visitors and/or those with a negative coronavirus test. Rules vary by country.




At the end of the day there are very few businesses that want to deal with checking people's health status before allowing them in or to use their business. These cruise lines don't want to have any part of checking vaccine status. They will if it is required by the country(ies) that they are going to just like they did before for any country travel requirements.

And I would think that Disney would make their unhappiness known like they did with California not allowing Disneyland to open. I think they would make it very known but I don't think they want to fight this fight. Like I said in the paragraph above I don't think they want any part in checking vaccine status or testing status unless it will be required by the countries they visit. Furthermore we have just about beat the virus back and we are unlikely to have any great surges that would make us a high risk country. We will be more at risk of bringing something back from other countries than bringing something to those countries very soon.


You are very much not alone. I work in clinical research and the MD I work most closely with just recently got the vaccine for himself (he felt comfortable after the large amount of people vaccinated) but he is very much against having his kids vaccinated until there is much more safety data and most specifically long-term (more than 1 year) of safety data.

The risk/benefit ratio for kids & even younger adults differs from if you are older than 40 and of course if you are older than 60. That is something that each parent has to evaluate for themselves.

I have no plans to leave the country until next year and I’m hoping you’re right that this is all behind us.

I have neighbors that haven’t done anything for a year they are both vaccinated. They still wear a mask. They are still afraid to do anything. I don’t know what percentage of the population is like them and what it’s going to take for them to get over their fear. It’s hard for me to wrap my head around that level of fear, but I don’t a lot of watch mainstream or cable news either.

 

[tink2424]

I have no plans to leave the country until next year and I’m hoping you’re right that this is all behind us.

I have neighbors that haven’t done anything for a year they are both vaccinated. They still wear a mask. They are still afraid to do anything. I don’t know what percentage of the population is like them and what it’s going to take for them to get over their fear. It’s hard for me to wrap my head around that level of fear, but I don’t a lot of watch mainstream or cable news either.

Well I was supposed to go to Europe the fall of last year and rescheduled to this year so I have been paying attention to the discussions. I am getting a little more confident that I will be able to go but I have no plans to be vaccinated as I have already had COVID and I know I had a good immune response just like my sister (we live together so went through COVID together & she is going on the trip with me).

I do understand the fear as it can be a fatal disease but there has been an over reliance on scaring people instead of informing them of the facts. The fact is that we have a lot more therapeutics to deal with COVID, especially when caught early (this is the real key) as well as the fact that they make it seem like there is no natural immunity or that it is inferior to the vaccines when there is research out there that says the opposite.

Just put out the facts and your recommendations and then let people decide for themselves. Older people the risk/benefit is pretty clear - they are the most likely to have severe outcomes. As you do down the age ranges the risk gets lower and lower. That doesn't mean zero and it doesn't mean that you won't die if you get it as a child. But that is part of the risk assessment that each person/parent should make.

I feel that since so much of the vaccine strategy is mandates & coercion that it turns a lot of people off of them entirely. There is a risk to taking all vaccines for some. If that wasn't hid or if they didn't call people conspiracy theorists for stating facts then we could move past that and have an open and honest discussion about vaccines and you would probably have a very high (maybe even higher) rate of people take them because they would have faith in the information that was given out to them.

All in all transparency is key and that is where we have failed time and time again with this virus. It really is a shame.

 

[jrapps]

Well I was supposed to go to Europe the fall of last year and rescheduled to this year so I have been paying attention to the discussions. I am getting a little more confident that I will be able to go but I have no plans to be vaccinated as I have already had COVID and I know I had a good immune response just like my sister (we live together so went through COVID together & she is going on the trip with me).

I do understand the fear as it can be a fatal disease but there has been an over reliance on scaring people instead of informing them of the facts. The fact is that we have a lot more therapeutics to deal with COVID, especially when caught early (this is the real key) as well as the fact that they make it seem like there is no natural immunity or that it is inferior to the vaccines when there is research out there that says the opposite.

Just put out the facts and your recommendations and then let people decide for themselves. Older people the risk/benefit is pretty clear - they are the most likely to have severe outcomes. As you do down the age ranges the risk gets lower and lower. That doesn't mean zero and it doesn't mean that you won't die if you get it as a child. But that is part of the risk assessment that each person/parent should make.

I feel that since so much of the vaccine strategy is mandates & coercion that it turns a lot of people off of them entirely. There is a risk to taking all vaccines for some. If that wasn't hid or if they didn't call people conspiracy theorists for stating facts then we could move past that and have an open and honest discussion about vaccines and you would probably have a very high (maybe even higher) rate of people take them because they would have faith in the information that was given out to them.

All in all transparency is key and that is where we have failed time and time again with this virus. It really is a shame.

I think for the first time, I find myself agreeing with you (on part of this at least). I am in this leadership class at work and one thing they talk about is how you can't lead people from where YOU are, you can only lead them from where THEY are. We too often in this situation are not thinking about the perspective of other people. Both sides are guilty of it.

Not all people who don't want to vaccine are anti-vax conspiracy theorists, and we deserve to talk about all of the data we have, whether it fits our preconceived notions or not. There are real world reasons people are cautious and we need to understand and respect them.

Not all people who want mandates for vaccines are fear mongering anti-freedom socialists. People need to understand that when dealing with a pandemic, the actions of others can and do affect what happens to others, and people are naturally cautious and over-cautions because they interpret other's "free choice" as selfishness.

Neither side is right. Neither side is wrong. We are just different. We can't move forward until we stop having to be right and making others wrong.

 

[Mousequake]

This brought tears to my eyes.

Aww, thanks. It kinda did mine too.

 

[Mousequake]

Neither side is right. Neither side is wrong. We are just different. We can't move forward until we stop having to be right and making others wrong.

You're wrong and let me tell you why...

I totally agree. I fully acknowledge I'm horrible about this and need to do a better job of meeting people where they are.

 

[Intr3pid]

I have neighbors that haven’t done anything for a year they are both vaccinated. They still wear a mask. They are still afraid to do anything. I don’t know what percentage of the population is like them and what it’s going to take for them to get over their fear. It’s hard for me to wrap my head around that level of fear, but I don’t a lot of watch mainstream or cable news either.

Didn't you have COVID? I can't recall - sorry if I'm wrong.

In all honesty, they are looking at someone who got infected without taking precautions, and they now know exactly how to avoid ending up in the same predicament.

 

[tink2424]

I think for the first time, I find myself agreeing with you (on part of this at least). I am in this leadership class at work and one thing they talk about is how you can't lead people from where YOU are, you can only lead them from where THEY are. We too often in this situation are not thinking about the perspective of other people. Both sides are guilty of it.

Not all people who don't want to vaccine are anti-vax conspiracy theorists, and we deserve to talk about all of the data we have, whether it fits our preconceived notions or not. There are real world reasons people are cautious and we need to understand and respect them.

Not all people who want mandates for vaccines are fear mongering anti-freedom socialists. People need to understand that when dealing with a pandemic, the actions of others can and do affect what happens to others, and people are naturally cautious and over-cautions because they interpret other's "free choice" as selfishness.

Neither side is right. Neither side is wrong. We are just different. We can't move forward until we stop having to be right and making others wrong.

Thanks! I actually think all of us agree on more than we think but are a bit stubborn about listening to other people, especially with polarizing issues.

I very much understand the fear about those who aren't vaccinating or going without masks. I also very much try to be a good citizen and generally try to help others out. I think the vast majority of American's are this way. Unfortunately the media has been doing a good job of dividing Americans and filling us with fear.

I can't tell you the number of times I have heard on this board and other places that if everyone would just mask and social distance then the pandemic would be over. And that narrative was driven by the media. The fact is the majority of places people were very good about masking & social distancing (again I know there were places that definitely didn't do this but I believe that a majority of the country did) and the virus was still spreading. It is just that contagious. Now we can argue all day how much, if at all, masking actually helps but you can't deny that it wasn't a silver bullet that would end the pandemic.

Now again the biggest problem I have with the vaccine mandate is that it is a one size fits all approach and it demonizes anyone that either doesn't need the vaccine, has a medical reason they can't get a vaccine or is just hesitant to get the vaccine due to the short timeline. I have heard all of the crazy theories about these vaccines and while I don't think they are without risk & I don't plan to take one as I have had COVID, I do think there is a crazy amount of mis-information out there (the chip lie is particularly crazy). The media, our politicians & most importantly our health officials (the CDC & Fauci) have done a great disservice to the American people as they have lied or misconstrued the facts so poorly that very few trust what they say anymore. This has led to some of the vaccine hesitancy.

Overall I have much more faith in humanity to do the right things when they have the right information. I also firmly believe that even when it comes to public health no one should be forced to have a vaccine or take a medicine or any other forced "treatment". I know many don't agree with me and that is okay as I understand why they feel the way that they do. I don't know if I would take the vaccine if I didn't have COVID already or if there is a new strain that the current vaccine doesn't work on. I will have to make that decision if and when that situation occurs.

I certainly don't mind if someone else gets the vaccine or wears a mask even when fully vaccinated. It will take time to get back to normal and to be perfectly honest I will consider wearing a mask in public when I am sick in the future as even if I have a cold I don't want to spread it. I quarantined for a month when I had COVID (Now it was the very beginning of the pandemic so we didn't know much about the spread and how long you were contagious but I certainly didn't want to pass it along to anyone) and when I went out I wore a N95 mask and anytime I touched my face applied hand sanitizer just so I wouldn't spread the disease to anyone. I knew I was now immune so I wasn't worried about getting it again but I certainly didn't want anyone else to get it from me and even 4 weeks past my initial infection I didn't know if I could pass it along or not so I was extremely careful.

All this to say I hope we all try to start to listen and see what we can do to make everyone happy as well as to make everyone feel safe going back to a normal life.

Hope you all have a GREAT day!

 

[DCLMP]

Well I was supposed to go to Europe the fall of last year and rescheduled to this year so I have been paying attention to the discussions. I am getting a little more confident that I will be able to go but I have no plans to be vaccinated as I have already had COVID and I know I had a good immune response just like my sister (we live together so went through COVID together & she is going on the trip with me).

I do understand the fear as it can be a fatal disease but there has been an over reliance on scaring people instead of informing them of the facts. The fact is that we have a lot more therapeutics to deal with COVID, especially when caught early (this is the real key) as well as the fact that they make it seem like there is no natural immunity or that it is inferior to the vaccines when there is research out there that says the opposite.

Just put out the facts and your recommendations and then let people decide for themselves. Older people the risk/benefit is pretty clear - they are the most likely to have severe outcomes. As you do down the age ranges the risk gets lower and lower. That doesn't mean zero and it doesn't mean that you won't die if you get it as a child. But that is part of the risk assessment that each person/parent should make.

I feel that since so much of the vaccine strategy is mandates & coercion that it turns a lot of people off of them entirely. There is a risk to taking all vaccines for some. If that wasn't hid or if they didn't call people conspiracy theorists for stating facts then we could move past that and have an open and honest discussion about vaccines and you would probably have a very high (maybe even higher) rate of people take them because they would have faith in the information that was given out to them.

All in all transparency is key and that is where we have failed time and time again with this virus. It really is a shame.

I know young people that are scared to death and old people that could care less. It’s definitely all about how you perceive things. Some media outlets have gone above and beyond to scare people if their is a conspiracy to be found it’s that.

 

[tink2424]

I know young people that are scared to death and old people that could care less. It’s definitely all about how you perceive things. Some media outlets have gone above and beyond to scare people if their is a conspiracy to be found it’s that.

I really have to laugh because I find I sometimes fall into the trap myself. I personally don't feel masks do anything but yet I find myself giving looks to those not wearing them or wearing them improperly or even making sure my elderly mother is wearing a mask. So I can certainly understand why so many feel the way they do.

And you are right... It is all about your perception.

 

[sabrecmc]

Part of my reasoning for wanting the vaccine for my 15 year old daughter was definitely to make her feel safer. She isn't paranoid, but she is far less comfortable going out and about than I am (being fully vaccinated), especially now with people without masks everywhere. Note that we do no have cable, do not watch news, etc., so this is all from things she has picked up from just chatter and friends. It wasn't the only reason, by any means, but it factored into it. Being able to tell her the study showed it was 100% effective was huge. I could see her relief. She wanted the vaccine, first and foremost. Now that she and her friends all have their first shot, I can tell there is a sense of relief that this is almost over. I'm not knocking anyone else's choice for their child, and honestly, if she were 5 instead of 15, I probably wouldn't do it right now, but I love seeing her feel more confident. We're even going to a movie next week!