The Vaccine Discussion Thread

[sethschroeder]

They are only restricted from discrimination based on race, religion, national origin, age, sex (including sexual orientation and gender identity), pregnancy, familial status, disability, veteran status, or genetic information. Vaccine status is not a protected characteristic. They are free to discriminate on that, or anything else that isn't protected. If I wanted to say that no one that was born on a Wednesday was welcome in my business, I would be free to do so.

Correct.

So there are areas in which business are not able to just choose restrictions. I never said a business couldn't legally restrict vaccine status although in certain circumstances it would possibly fall under your list of restrictions.

You are still arguing the law.

You want choices and freedoms for you and your family but you dont want anyone that may restrict your daily life as a result of your choice..................to have their own choice.

Did I get that right?

I am not sure what you are trying to say? I am saying there are and should be different measures of business vs individual. It already exists in different formats in the US today as Sykes outlined above.

Where did I say you can't be restricted based on a choice? I simply stated there is a difference between personal choice and certain limitations put on businesses.

A great example is businesses which in the US are regulated like energy and water. Would you want them to have unilateral choice? I would personally say not.

 

[Trera]

Correct.

So there are areas in which business are not able to just choose restrictions. I never said a business couldn't legally restrict vaccine status although in certain circumstances it would possibly fall under your list of restrictions.




I am not sure what you are trying to say? I am saying there are and should be different measures of business vs individual. It already exists in different formats in the US today as Sykes outlined above.

Where did I say you can't be restricted based on a choice? I simply stated there is a difference between personal choice and certain limitations put on businesses.

A great example is businesses which in the US are regulated like energy and water. Would you want them to have unilateral choice? I would personally say not.

I guess I will ask it as plainly as I can.................Do you believe DCL should be allowed to restrict unvaccinated individuals from boarding their ships??? YES or NO?

 

[sethschroeder]

I don't see how you came to that conclusion. DCL has not made any statements about vaccination requirements. There are many scenarios that could include vaccinations for those who are eligible or those who are adults.

It comes down to a couple things:

• I don't see US based large publicly traded corporations proactively putting in vaccination requirements
• You see Disney fully pulling back mask requirements as an example now when they wouldn't need to
• Tracking of vaccination status would be hard to enforce when you consider various areas of the US have nothing more than a CDC piece of paper
• DCL is going to keep pushing out past a time period where vaccination is an absolute necessity (like right now, if DCL was sailing today I would say having vaccination requirements would be a good thing)

 

[sethschroeder]

I guess I will ask it as plainly as I can.................Do you believe DCL should be allowed to restrict unvaccinated individuals from boarding their ships??? YES or NO?

Yes they should be allowed to restrict it at the current time.

That doesn't mean there isn't possible issues with allowing them to restrict it.

 

[DCLMP]

They are only restricted from discrimination based on race, religion, national origin, age, sex (including sexual orientation and gender identity), pregnancy, familial status, disability, veteran status, or genetic information (in some cases). Some states also protect on other characteristics, but generally speaking the freedom of association allows a business broad discretion about with whom they do business. Vaccine status is not a protected characteristic. They are free to discriminate on that, or anything else that isn't protected. If I wanted to say that no one that was born on a Wednesday was welcome in my business, I would be free to do so.

If the cruise lines were going to challenge Florida. Don’t you think they would have done so by now. May is almost in the books and July is coming up quickly. So far we’ve had one cruise line threaten to leave Florida because they can’t require vaccines. They were basically told not to let the door hit them in the rear on the way out. The largest cruiselines doesn’t want to mandate vaccines. Other then that we know nothing.
Maybe the cruiselines would win in court, but that certainly would delay the restart.

 

[jrapps]

If the cruise lines were going to challenge Florida. Don’t you think they would have done so by now. May is almost in the books and July is coming up quickly. So far we’ve had one cruise line threaten to leave Florida because they can’t require vaccines. They were basically told not to let the door hit them in the rear on the way out. The largest cruiselines doesn’t want to mandate vaccines. Other then that we know nothing.
Maybe the cruiselines would win in court, but that certainly would delay the restart.

We don't know that they aren't challenging them, maybe DCL is just acting slightly more mature than other lines and having behind the scenes conversations with the state, instead of airing it all out in the court of public opinion.

If push came to shove, I don't think Disney of all companies would go on TV and threaten to leave FL. I think if they decide they must mandate vaccines, they would just set the mandate and put the ball back in FL's court. If I was the governor, I would think long and hard about how it will appear in the press if I sued Disney when his whole image is set around building jobs in FL.

That said, I am not saying they will do this, or even that they should. I merely mention as a hypothetical. Trust me, we won't see DCL threaten anything. They will either do it, or not do it.

 

[Sykes]

If the cruise lines were going to challenge Florida. Don’t you think they would have done so by now.

I guess we'll see. I'd be willing to wager a pretty significant amount that at least one cruise line will restart cruising in Florida with a vaccine requirement (at least for passengers that are eligible for the vaccine).

What you're seeing right now is a lot of public political theater while the real ongoing negotiations are happening in the background. I basically see one of things happening. 1) Florida yields during their discussions with the CDC and cruise lines and allows a narrow carve-out on the vaccine passport ban for cruises [imo, this is the most likely scenario], 2) Cruise lines that want to have a vaccine requirement temporarily move out of Florida until vaccine requirements are no longer prudent and then eventually move back (presumably because the fight isn't worth it to them), or 3) Cruise lines that want to have a vaccine requirement circumvent Florida law, either by restarting with vaccination requirements assuming Florida overreached and federal law prevails then waiting for Florida to sue them to stop them from reopening (fantastic optics for Florida), or by requiring passengers to self-certify their vaccination status without requiring passengers to provide documentation of vaccination.

 

[jrapps]

1) Florida yields during their discussions with the CDC and cruise lines and allows a narrow carve-out on the vaccine passport ban for cruises [imo, this is the most likely scenario]

The only narrow carve out I see FL agreeing to is if the foreign port of call requires the vaccine. This would be a way to save face, say the cruise lines are not allowed to request proof of vaccine, but foreign countries are and the cruise line is just acting as middle man.

If the Bahamas decides that all cruise ships from US must have vaccinated passengers, then DCL has to abide, and the state will have to allow them to collect the info.

So far, the Bahamas has said no such thing (yet)

 

[Geomom]

Yep. Even if you "swear" that you won't get off the ship. Just like cruises going to Russia you HAVE to get a Russian visa even if you are not getting off the ship. (Some other countries as well.)

Actually if you have a cruise stop in Russia you do not need a Visa unless you want to get off the ship by yourself. If you go thru any tour guide, (DCL included), they provide the tourist visa for the length of the tour. (Just a piece of paper you need to hang onto until you're back on the ship.) I know you have no desire to visit Russia. Not needing to get a Visa was one of the draws of the Baltic Sea cruise for us... plus one day of touring Russia was enough for us.

More on topic ...
DH and I got our second shot a week ago and DD17 gets her second tomorrow. DD21 and my Dad are 3 weeks past their second shots. Will be nice to start getting back to some sense of normalcy but it'll take a while to feel comfortable being unmasked near others. I'm sure DD21s college in NY and the high school in MA will end up requiring the covid vax since they required the flu shot last year...but we'll see what happens over the summer!

 

[blabadie]

The people that want to vaccinate their kids will rush out and get it. Demand will fall off rapidly and then they'll be trying to figure out ways to bribe parents. Krispy Cremes or Fries, please.

I suspect this will be true. DH and I took the vaccine bc at our age we felt the probability of serious covid was greater than the probability of an unexpected, serious vaccine side effect emerging in the long-term. However, our children are under 11, and I find it difficult to justify giving them a vaccine without long-term safety data to eliminate the virtually non-existent risk of serious covid for their ages.

I am closely following safety studies and I really would like to feel comfortable giving our kids the vaccine---we are an expat family with a lot of expected international travel over the next couple years so it would certainly simplify our lives.

I remain confident and hopeful the vaccine (we chose Pfizer) is safe, but there remains the reality that no one can truly say for certain what the long-term data will show until time passes.

This is anecdotal...but all except one of our close friends have expressed vaccine hesitancy regarding their children. These are people who took the covid vaccine themselves and are not "anti-vaxxers." Unless a new variant arises which proves dangerous for children, I think many parents will be slow to get covid vaccines for their young kids in the coming months.

 

[orum]

I guess I will ask it as plainly as I can.................Do you believe DCL should be allowed to restrict unvaccinated individuals from boarding their ships??? YES or NO?

I try to be pragmatic about this. Because I think there are a bunch of challenges to requiring vaccines, I think it will be hard. But I hope they are allowed to because I think it will allow them to begin cruising faster.

Because of the possible authenticity issues with the CDC Covid vaccine "cards", I even ordered my state vaccine record and the Covid vaccines were listed (along with dates, locations, and lot numbers). I have it ready in case I need it to board the ship.

 

[Dug720]

Actually if you have a cruise stop in Russia you do not need a Visa unless you want to get off the ship by yourself. If you go thru any tour guide, (DCL included), they provide the tourist visa for the length of the tour. (Just a piece of paper you need to hang onto until you're back on the ship.) I know you have no desire to visit Russia. Not needing to get a Visa was one of the draws of the Baltic Sea cruise for us... plus one day of touring Russia was enough for us.

Interesting. It's been a while since I looked at any cruise with Russia in it, but the last time I did it was required regardless. There's another place - Vietnam maybe? - that I've seen it discussed before.

 

[DCLMP]

I guess we'll see. I'd be willing to wager a pretty significant amount that at least one cruise line will restart cruising in Florida with a vaccine requirement (at least for passengers that are eligible for the vaccine).

What you're seeing right now is a lot of public political theater while the real ongoing negotiations are happening in the background. I basically see one of things happening. 1) Florida yields during their discussions with the CDC and cruise lines and allows a narrow carve-out on the vaccine passport ban for cruises [imo, this is the most likely scenario], 2) Cruise lines that want to have a vaccine requirement temporarily move out of Florida until vaccine requirements are no longer prudent and then eventually move back (presumably because the fight isn't worth it to them), or 3) Cruise lines that want to have a vaccine requirement circumvent Florida law, either by restarting with vaccination requirements assuming Florida overreached and federal law prevails then waiting for Florida to sue them to stop them from reopening (fantastic optics for Florida), or by requiring passengers to self-certify their vaccination status without requiring passengers to provide documentation of vaccination.

I know you always want to make this political. These is something could change the whole landscape of our country and way of life. I don’t see this as theatre. It’s a very big deal.

 

[Sykes]

I know you always want to make this political. These is something could change the whole landscape of our country and way of life. I don’t see this as theatre. It’s a very big deal.

The CEOs going on TV threatening to leave Florida, along with the inevitable response from the Florida representatives, is theater. I'm not saying that it isn't important--I'm saying that the public statements are really just putting on a show for specific audiences while the adults are quietly negotiating in the background and finding common ground. It's just the way things work. Everything about the restrictions on vaccine passports is political, and it's inextricably intertwined with the return to cruising in Florida.

 

[HiStitch626]

Even within that they show that there are lots of countries with very exaggerated wait times of years to get certain surgeries. Sure there are some countries that do better but overall it is a problem with socialized medicine. There are many other problems as well but you can do a google search for them as I'm sure there are a ton of articles on that.

You are absolutely right. If you need a knee replacement in Chile, you will need to wait. But, at least you won't have to start a GoFundMe for it.

 

[AquaDame]

I know more than a few people who wait here as well for years to save the money for their copays and deductibles. It really is a shame because people who need them typically suffer in the interim.

We're really getting offtrack from vaccines at this point though - lets save the socialized vs. not for the community forum please!

 

[HiStitch626]

We're really getting offtrack from vaccines at this point though - lets save the socialized vs. not for the community forum please!

Sorry! I'm done.

 

[Mousequake]

You could also be vaccinated and spread the disease.

The chances of a vaccinated person spreading the disease are amazingly small compared to an unvaccinated person. The vaccine prevents ~90% of infections. Of those that do still get infected, most won't develop a large enough viral load to infect others.

 

[DCLMP]

The chances of a vaccinated person spreading the disease are amazingly small compared to an unvaccinated person. The vaccine prevents ~90% of infections. Of those that do still get infected, most won't develop a large enough viral load to infect others.

So are the chances of an asymptomatic person spreading the disease. There is also a very, very small chance of a person who's already had covid getting it again and spreading the disease.

 

[DCLMP]

The CEOs going on TV threatening to leave Florida, along with the inevitable response from the Florida representatives, is theater. I'm not saying that it isn't important--I'm saying that the public statements are really just putting on a show for specific audiences while the adults are quietly negotiating in the background and finding common ground. It's just the way things work. Everything about the restrictions on vaccine passports is political, and it's inextricably intertwined with the return to cruising in Florida.

I disagree with you I don't think anyone's views on Americans giving up personal freedoms are based on their political aspirations. Even if it was they would be a fool to back down.