The Vaccine Discussion Thread

[Trera]

Disney is requiring adults be vaccinated for their upcoming Magic Cruises in the UK and negative tests for the under 18 crowd. Why would we think that wouldn't be the minimum here in the US for DCL when they start back cruising again?

 

[hrhdhd]

Didn't you have COVID? I can't recall - sorry if I'm wrong.

In all honesty, they are looking at someone who got infected without taking precautions, and they now know exactly how to avoid ending up in the same predicament.

Plenty of people who took precautions got it anyway.

 

[Trera]

Well I was supposed to go to Europe the fall of last year and rescheduled to this year so I have been paying attention to the discussions. I am getting a little more confident that I will be able to go but I have no plans to be vaccinated as I have already had COVID and I know I had a good immune response just like my sister (we live together so went through COVID together & she is going on the trip with me).

I do understand the fear as it can be a fatal disease but there has been an over reliance on scaring people instead of informing them of the facts. The fact is that we have a lot more therapeutics to deal with COVID, especially when caught early (this is the real key) as well as the fact that they make it seem like there is no natural immunity or that it is inferior to the vaccines when there is research out there that says the opposite.

Just put out the facts and your recommendations and then let people decide for themselves. Older people the risk/benefit is pretty clear - they are the most likely to have severe outcomes. As you do down the age ranges the risk gets lower and lower. That doesn't mean zero and it doesn't mean that you won't die if you get it as a child. But that is part of the risk assessment that each person/parent should make.

I feel that since so much of the vaccine strategy is mandates & coercion that it turns a lot of people off of them entirely. There is a risk to taking all vaccines for some. If that wasn't hid or if they didn't call people conspiracy theorists for stating facts then we could move past that and have an open and honest discussion about vaccines and you would probably have a very high (maybe even higher) rate of people take them because they would have faith in the information that was given out to them.

All in all transparency is key and that is where we have failed time and time again with this virus. It really is a shame.

I read this in a Q&A article today about covid

Why do I need the vaccine if I already had COVID-19?

"The immuno-response you get from natural infection is not as good as the one you're getting from the vaccine. This is super important now because we have all these variants that are coming up and some of them have increased resistance to the immunity that we have. It's really important for your immune system to be as high as possible."

 

[jrapps]

Disney is requiring adults be vaccinated for their upcoming Magic Cruises in the UK and negative tests for the under 18 crowd. Why would we think that wouldn't be the minimum here in the US for DCL when they start back cruising again?

Because the politics of that are much more complicated here in the US and Florida than they are in the UK, plus on top of that a lack of a simple way to verify those vaccines. In the UK, sailings are limited to UK residents who have a government-issued way to very vaccination status. We have no such thing here.

 

[tee11]

It was so refreshing to read this. I honestly am back here after a hiatus, because it was too difficult to deal with many people's misperceptions about the vaccines. I don't want to tout my background since I'm on this board, because we love traveling, Disney and DCL, and have cruised a lot.

I will vaccinate my children (all under age 12) as soon as it is possible. Most (likely all) of the people in my circle will as well. And most people I know with children over the age of 12 signed them up for Pfizer the first day it was available. We are so lucky we live in a country that is able to offer this to us and our children so fast.

With the caveat that every person's immune system is highly individual and complicated, the likelihood of adverse effects and long term issues from Covid disease are far, FAR, more of a concern than those potentially due to anyone's immune system reaction to any of the vaccines (if any; much, much more likely to be temporary).
If you are concerned about your personal immune system's reaction to the vaccines, you should be several fold concerned about your immune system's reaction to and long term effects from Covid. Yes, this goes for children, too. The long term effects of Covid can be insidious; a good family friend (young, healthy) recently found out he has new onset heart failure. Long hauler Covid clinics are already a thing, and sadly will be a thing for children as well.

As far as catching Covid while vaccinated; we think currently immunity wanes starting 6-12 months after vaccination, it's important to be aware of this wide range, again, because our immune systems are so individual. There are a number of non-and low responders to the vaccines. They don't know who they are unfortunately, because we are not testing for this. This is not unusual; it occurs with other vaccines as well. Some may remember getting tested for (quantitative) titers during pregnancy to determine whether booster immunizations are needed against certain diseases. Often another booster immunization will result in the desired (much) longer term immunity.
I hope that a Covid booster vaccine will do just that... vs. requiring annual immunizations... we will see.

The sad part is that, while for other diseases we have successfully created herd immunity in the US, which protects all those who simply CANNOT mount a response due to their individual immune system (being suppressed for various reasons), we may not be able to achieve this for Covid for a very long time despite having the means to do so, if vaccine hesitancy among the population remains too high, including for children. This puts everyone at higher risk, but especially those (many more than you think) that do not mount a good enough immune response. I can only hope that, with the millions of vaccinated individuals, the overwhelming majority of which don't even experience more than a sore arm, more people will let go of the hesitancy. It may help once the vaccines get full approval status as well.

Obviously some people are never vaxxers and think that Bill Gates is implanting chips in them, etc. Those people are never going to get vaccinated, and really, there is no rational discussion to be had and frankly I can't take their objections to the vaccine seriously. The interesting aspect, to me, is people who have educated, thoughtful, and mixed reactions or feelings about it, like yourself.

I rushed to get my son (age 13) the vaccine on the first day it was available, as did several of my friends and neighbors. And I spoke to a friend yesterday who had her kids get the shot... but SHE hasn't gotten it yet. She caught Covid last year, and then a few months later a previously benign heart condition turned serious (doctors are not sure it is related) and she had to have heart surgery a few months ago. This is someone who was a triathlete, running 15-20 miles the week before she got Covid. She got winded immediately after running a mile after she caught it, so she had to quit running. She also has had some other medical issues after the surgery, so she is not getting the shot (we didn't go into details, but I assumed it had to do with being immuno-compromised). But as I said, she had her children get the vaccine.

My concern was even though I was vaccinated, I might get it and give it to my son. I am concerned about long term effects on anyone who gets it, even children. I personally know "long haulers" who are very young, very healthy pre-covid and it makes me nervous. There are all kinds of articles out there (everyone can google, I won't post them) about pediatricians seeing long term effects in kids, especially fatigue. I had mono when I was a teen and I swear it took me YEARS to get over the chronic fatigue. I am hoping to avoid something similar with my child and covid, esp. since so little is known.

Even though my risk is lower to get it since vaccinated, I am still concerned that I will catch it. I know of at least 3 people personally who have gotten Covid after being vaccinated- my very ill, elderly father in law in a nursing home got it right after being vaccinated- it swept through the nursing home. Everyone had only mild symptoms (and again, these are all people confined to a nursing home, so that was a miracle). My neighbor told me yesterday that he and his wife, both fully vaccinated, caught Covid a couple weeks ago. She is an ER nurse. She lost her sense of smell/taste so was tested, so then he was tested. He said he would not have known he had it but for the test.

Anyway, I find it fascinating how this is playing out around the country and choices people are making. I had a co-worker who early on was skeptical about getting the vaccine but just recently decided to get it now that so many millions have gotten it in the last 6 mos. with such positive effect on the number of cases nationwide.

It makes you wonder how 10-20 years from now what we will know looking back on all of this. We are all guinea pigs in some way - either getting the vaccine or getting covid, we won't know for a while which was better or worse. But I've seen very little negative about getting the vaccine and a lot of negative about getting covid, so I gladly, enthusiastically, opted for being a vaccinated guinea pig

 

[Trera]

Because the politics of that are much more complicated here in the US and Florida than they are in the UK, plus on top of that a lack of a simple way to verify those vaccines. In the UK, sailings are limited to UK residents who have a government-issued way to very vaccination status. We have no such thing here.

When I got vaccinated, I received a card showing the dates of vaccination. Why would that not be a way to verify vaccines? any resident of the UK or country with similar govt issued vaccine credentials could provide those.

Royal and Celebrity have already stated that vaccinations are required for the beginning phase of their cruises.

 

[brentm77]

As far as catching Covid while vaccinated; we think currently immunity wanes starting 6-12 months after vaccination. . .

I agree with so much of what you said, but I am curious where you are getting the above information from. I follow the issue pretty closely, and from what I can determine, all we now right now is the minimum times immunity will last. For example, we know it will last at least six months for most people. Unfortunately, sloppy reporting often states that as "it will last six months," which is inaccurate and not what the studies actually say. Even when study authors have been careful to emphasize that the reported six months was the minimum, reporters miss the "minimum" part. I have read some doctors (and Pfizer's CEO) speculating a yearly booster will be required, but it is pure speculation. I have seen other doctors/scientists speculating it could be as long as ten years, but again, they are speculating. The data simply isn't available yet from what I have read.

Here is a good video explaining why memory b cells might mean the vaccine is effective much longer than 12 months. https://www.newsy.com/stories/will-you-need-a-covid-19-booster-shot/

Do you have reliable source I missed that puts it at 6-12 months?

 

[jrapps]

When I got vaccinated, I received a card showing the dates of vaccination. Why would that not be a way to verify vaccines? any resident of the UK or country with similar govt issued vaccine credentials could provide those.

Royal and Celebrity have already stated that vaccinations are required for the beginning phase of their cruises.

Royal and Celebrity are requiring vaccines on their sailings outside the US. They might in the US as well but have not officially said one way or the other for sure yet.

I wish I had a simple answer for you question, mostly because I want there to be one too. The CDC card can be lost, damaged, or forged. How will those situations be handled? The state of FL has a law preventing companies from asking you for any proof (including the card). How do you get around that?

In the UK, they have a national registry, a database, an app they can pull up on their phone, and a government committed to tracking and providing that data. We have none of those things.

This isn't a discussion about what you think is right or wrong with respect to vaccinations, personal privacy, etc. There is just a fundamental difference between how the UK and US governments can provide proof of vaccination. Some say the card is enough. What happens when you are the person at the port with a photocopy of your Covid card (because you left the original at home deeming it to be too valuable to lose) and the cruise line denies you boarding because they can't prove your copy is real.

There are too many unknowns here for this to work.

 

[tink2424]

Part of my reasoning for wanting the vaccine for my 15 year old daughter was definitely to make her feel safer. She isn't paranoid, but she is far less comfortable going out and about than I am (being fully vaccinated), especially now with people without masks everywhere. Note that we do no have cable, do not watch news, etc., so this is all from things she has picked up from just chatter and friends. It wasn't the only reason, by any means, but it factored into it. Being able to tell her the study showed it was 100% effective was huge. I could see her relief. She wanted the vaccine, first and foremost. Now that she and her friends all have their first shot, I can tell there is a sense of relief that this is almost over. I'm not knocking anyone else's choice for their child, and honestly, if she were 5 instead of 15, I probably wouldn't do it right now, but I love seeing her feel more confident. We're even going to a movie next week!

I'm glad that people have the option as well. Glad you both are happy!

I read this in a Q&A article today about covid

Why do I need the vaccine if I already had COVID-19?

"The immuno-response you get from natural infection is not as good as the one you're getting from the vaccine. This is super important now because we have all these variants that are coming up and some of them have increased resistance to the immunity that we have. It's really important for your immune system to be as high as possible."

Well the article is just plain wrong. There are several studies that are being ignored by the media and this is the talking points of our misguided politicians and health officials. I have read quite a lot of research that shows a very robust immune response for those who have been infected.

Here are a few of the studies that refute this article:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2777898
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19
This is an article but if you click the link on the bottom it takes you to the actual study. We really need more long term real world evidence of COVID infection rates for both natural immunity & vaccinated immunity to make longer term assessments as to how long immunity lasts.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...OVID-19-vaccine-provide-similar-immunity.aspx

 

[tink2424]

With the caveat that every person's immune system is highly individual and complicated, the likelihood of adverse effects and long term issues from Covid disease are far, FAR, more of a concern than those potentially due to anyone's immune system reaction to any of the vaccines (if any; much, much more likely to be temporary).
If you are concerned about your personal immune system's reaction to the vaccines, you should be several fold concerned about your immune system's reaction to and long term effects from Covid. Yes, this goes for children, too. The long term effects of Covid can be insidious; a good family friend (young, healthy) recently found out he has new onset heart failure. Long hauler Covid clinics are already a thing, and sadly will be a thing for children as well.

The sad part is that, while for other diseases we have successfully created herd immunity in the US, which protects all those who simply CANNOT mount a response due to their individual immune system (being suppressed for various reasons), we may not be able to achieve this for Covid for a very long time despite having the means to do so, if vaccine hesitancy among the population remains too high, including for children. This puts everyone at higher risk, but especially those (many more than you think) that do not mount a good enough immune response. I can only hope that, with the millions of vaccinated individuals, the overwhelming majority of which don't even experience more than a sore arm, more people will let go of the hesitancy. It may help once the vaccines get full approval status as well.

I'm sorry but a reaction to the vaccine is in no way related to how you would respond to the virus. You aren't actually getting the virus from the vaccine so there really is no comparison. There is a correlation of a higher number of adverse events if you have had COVID previously and take the vaccine. Just want to clear that up for everyone.

As for herd immunity it is likely that we will be just fine and may have already reached herd immunity in some pockets of the US. All of us who have had COVID previously are contributing to herd immunity. The US and other developed countries are going to be just fine. The numbers are dropping continually and will continue to as more either get COVID and recover or as more get vaccinated.

 

[tee11]

Just FYI: On the other hand, a ton of MDs are very comfortable having their kids vaccinated, and a good number of those enrolled in the under 12 Pfizer and Moderna trials are MDs' kids.

You are very much not alone. I work in clinical research and the MD I work most closely with just recently got the vaccine for himself (he felt comfortable after the large amount of people vaccinated) but he is very much against having his kids vaccinated until there is much more safety data and most specifically long-term (more than 1 year) of safety data.

The risk/benefit ratio for kids & even younger adults differs from if you are older than 40 and of course if you are older than 60. That is something that each parent has to evaluate for themselves.

 

[Trera]

Just FYI: On the other hand, a ton of MDs are very comfortable having their kids vaccinated, and a good number of those enrolled in the under 12 Pfizer and Moderna trials are MDs' kids.

Every MD that we know or are friends with have had the vaccine.........and we know quite a few.

 

[tee11]

I wrote; "we currently think immunity wanes STARTING at 6-12 months". The waning could go for a longer period of time, and that will be individual (as it is for other immunizations). People who were in the trials are still being followed, and recently Pfizer stated they believe immunity may *start* to wane at around 8 months. They are doing quantitative titer testing.

I agree with so much of what you said, but I am curious where you are getting the above information from. I follow the issue pretty closely, and from what I can determine, all we now right now is the minimum times immunity will last. For example, we know it will last at least six months for most people. Unfortunately, sloppy reporting often states that as "it will last six months," which is inaccurate and not what the studies actually say. Even when study authors have been careful to emphasize that the reported six months was the minimum, reporters miss the "minimum" part. I have read some doctors (and Pfizer's CEO) speculating a yearly booster will be required, but it is pure speculation. I have seen other doctors/scientists speculating it could be as long as ten years, but again, they are speculating. The data simply isn't available yet from what I have read.

Do you have reliable source I missed that puts it at 6-12 months?

 

[Sykes]

Well the article is just plain wrong. There are several studies that are being ignored by the media and this is the talking points of our misguided politicians and health officials. I have read quite a lot of research that shows a very robust immune response for those who have been infected.

It's not wrong, and the studies are not being "ignored by the media" ... we're just early in our understanding of immunity from natural infection and there is a lot of (possibly) conflicting data that needs to be interpreted by experts rather than Internet commenters. As a counterpoint, this very large-scale observational study looked at COVID reinfection rates rather than trying to use other measurements as a stand-in for immunity: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00575-4/fulltext

It found that while natural infection is roughly 80% effective at providing immunity in the first few months after infection for younger people, that wanes to less than 50% in people over 65. The study's authors go on to recommend vaccines for people who previously had covid to supplement natural immunity from infection based on that data.

 

[Sykes]

Carnival announced today that they will require all passengers to be vaccinated for their Alaska cruises that start in July (pending passage of the PVSA exemption):

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/...land-america-set-for-alaska-july-cruises.html

Carnival Corporation today announced that three of its brands, Carnival Cruise Line, Princess Cruises and Holland America Line, are expected to return to service in the United States starting in July with Alaska sailings departing directly from Seattle.

Each company will launch service in July with one ship sailing round-trip from Seattle and will require guests to be fully vaccinated.
...
These Alaska cruises are available for guests who have received their final dose of an approved COVID-19 vaccine at least 14 days prior to the beginning of the cruise and have proof of vaccination. Crew vaccinations will be in accordance with CDC guidelines.

 

[tink2424]

It's not wrong, and the studies are not being "ignored by the media" ... we're just early in our understanding of immunity from natural infection and there is a lot of (possibly) conflicting data that needs to be interpreted by experts rather than Internet commenters. As a counterpoint, this very large-scale observational study looked at COVID reinfection rates rather than trying to use other measurements as a stand-in for immunity: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00575-4/fulltext

It found that while natural infection is roughly 80% effective at providing immunity in the first few months after infection for younger people, that wanes to less than 50% in people over 65. The study's authors go on to recommend vaccines for people who previously had covid to supplement natural immunity from infection based on that data.

Ok, well yes natural immunity is being ignored by the media as well as health officials. And of course that study has flaws (most do) but even in the study they showed that natural immunity provided 80% protection from the virus which is just as good as the JNJ vaccine. There really is no evidence that a person that has had COVID NEEDS a vaccine. Sure it could boost immunity but is that even NEEDED. For now the evidence is not clear that it is needed. It is just clear that people WANT us to get vaccinated.

And we are not that early on our understanding. This has been studied for the last year and there are many studies that show long term immunity for those who have had COVID. Additionally there is the fact that we haven't had large amounts of people being reinfected despite the fact that we are over a year from when the pandemic started. So if it was going to wane and put us as risk we would know by now.

 

[orum]

Carnival announced today that they will require all passengers to be vaccinated for their Alaska cruises that start in July (pending passage of the PVSA exemption):

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/...land-america-set-for-alaska-july-cruises.html

Good to see some movement on cruising from the US. Maybe this will put some more pressure on Florida to find some compromise. Anything to get cruising started faster. They can always ease these restrictions as the conditions change.

 

[tee11]

I may edit my post to word this more clearly: You are not getting the virus from the vaccine, correct; you are getting instructions to build a small part of the outside of the virus. You are also correct that if you had Covid previously, you can expect a more intense reaction to your vaccination.
As far as "in no way related" - there is no basis for that. Perhaps I should have worded more precisely though what I meant; I hear people say they are concerned about the adverse effects they experienced after the vaccine, I acknowledge that: However, there is no telling how that particular individual's immune system (who did not go through Covid first, but received the vaccine first) may have reacted to the full Covid virus (if they are only exposed to a copy of Covid's spike protein through vaccination).

I'm sorry but a reaction to the vaccine is in no way related to how you would respond to the virus. You aren't actually getting the virus from the vaccine so there really is no comparison. There is a correlation of a higher number of adverse events if you have had COVID previously and take the vaccine. Just want to clear that up for everyone.

As for herd immunity it is likely that we will be just fine and may have already reached herd immunity in some pockets of the US. All of us who have had COVID previously are contributing to herd immunity. The US and other developed countries are going to be just fine. The numbers are dropping continually and will continue to as more either get COVID and recover or as more get vaccinated.

 

[DCLMP]

Disney is requiring adults be vaccinated for their upcoming Magic Cruises in the UK and negative tests for the under 18 crowd. Why would we think that wouldn't be the minimum here in the US for DCL when they start back cruising again?

Because there was a law passed in Florida banning this. People will say it doesn’t apply to cruise ships, but so far none of them have challenged it.

 

[orum]

It's not wrong, and the studies are not being "ignored by the media" ... we're just early in our understanding of immunity from natural infection and there is a lot of (possibly) conflicting data that needs to be interpreted by experts rather than Internet commenters. As a counterpoint, this very large-scale observational study looked at COVID reinfection rates rather than trying to use other measurements as a stand-in for immunity: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00575-4/fulltext

It found that while natural infection is roughly 80% effective at providing immunity in the first few months after infection for younger people, that wanes to less than 50% in people over 65. The study's authors go on to recommend vaccines for people who previously had covid to supplement natural immunity from infection based on that data.

I had seen the reports of a drop in immunity, but had not read this study that it dropped to lower than 50% for older people that have had Covid. Thanks for sharing.