The Vaccine Discussion Thread

[Intr3pid]

I wonder how far some would go to force others into compliance if they had their "druthers," so to speak. Fines? Imprisonment? Forced "re-education"? Driver's licenses revoked? Having the peoples' children taken from them? Having their assets frozen? I've seen all of these suggested in one forum or another.

You don't have to go very far. Just provide a monetary incentive. Such as an insurance disclaimer for a COVID clause to render it void if you, say, decline vaccination. If one really wants to brave this virus, here is their chance to walk the talk.

Mask-wearing incentives already exist in some forms. You can't fly anymore without one, or shop at a nearby grocery store. Just need to expand the mandate to include most spaces.

 

[jane01jp]

You don't have to go very far. Just provide a monetary incentive. Such as an insurance disclaimer for a COVID clause to render it void if you, say, decline vaccination. If one really wants to brave this virus, here is their chance to walk the talk.

Mask-wearing incentives already exist in some forms. You can't fly anymore without one, or shop at a nearby grocery store. Just need to expand the mandate to include most spaces.

Like not being able to buy or sell without it?

 

[jane01jp]

Different opinions? Yes
Competing agenda? Yes
Motivations? Yes

Can you force an expert with integrity to alter the facts? No

There are legitimate differences in opinion though, even among those with integrity.

 

[Mousequake]

Then why hasn't the pandemic been "driven to the ground," like the CDC director said it would?

Because people are ignoring the OTHER things he said at that same press conference: that we also need to fully embrace social distancing-- as in no gathering at all in homes with people not in your household. Things like that are where a large portion of infections are coming from. The mask thing wasn't the only recommendation he gave, although that's what most news sources latched on to.

Direct quote: “The most important thing that I could ask the American public to do is to fully embrace face coverings, to fully embrace careful hand hygiene, and to fully embrace social distancing.”

 

[jane01jp]

Because people are ignoring the OTHER things he said at that same press conference: that we also need to fully embrace social distancing-- as in no gathering at all in homes with people not in your household. Things like that are where a large portion of infections are coming from. The mask thing wasn't the only recommendation he gave, although that's what most news sources latched on to.

Direct quote: “The most important thing that I could ask the American public to do is to fully embrace face coverings, to fully embrace careful hand hygiene, and to fully embrace social distancing.”

Would that mean that people who wear masks, yet don't embrace careful hand hygiene or fully embrace social distancing may not actually be helping? Maybe those other things, while not visible, are equally - if not more - important? If so, why do you think that so many people are receptive to wearing masks, but not receptive to embracing careful hand hygiene or fully embracing social distancing? Is it because they don't believe "the science," or is it because the wearing of masks is visible and discoverable and the other behaviors aren't?

 

[Minnie1222]

There are legitimate differences in opinion though, even among those with integrity.

Assuming we're still discussing Covid-19?
There is a clear line between facts, wishful thinking, fantasy, and lies when it comes to the virus.
Differences in opinion still have to follow Facts!

Are you collecting information to write an op-ed?
It seems that you're microdissecting everyone's comments/replies.

 

[DCLDVC1]

No, those who run around anti-masking and flaunting it at this point are not helping. Those who get on planes and belligerently state they don’t need to be decent because “I’ve been sick. 99% survival! PlAnDeMiC! Don’t be oppressed!” They’re who I’m referencing.

My family and I have been participating in society as allowed locally. Heading to a movie again tonight. But if people weren’t so dang belligerent in their behavior we’d all be in better shape. And, you’re right in that a number of people are going to receive a vaccine and then think it’s carte Blanche to behave like menaces in their local Costco. It will get ugly, unfortunately.

100% truth

 

[sethschroeder]

They just did a big survey that showed that overwhelmingly close to 88% of those asked will get the vaccine right away, or will eventually get it when it's available to them.

Sorry source on that?

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

Would that mean that people who wear masks, yet don't embrace careful hand hygiene or fully embrace social distancing may not actually be helping? Maybe those other things, while not visible, are equally - if not more - important? If so, why do you think that so many people are receptive to wearing masks, but not receptive to embracing careful hand hygiene or fully embracing social distancing? Is it because they don't believe "the science," or is it because the wearing of masks is visible and discoverable and the other behaviors aren't?

I don't even think it's not believing the science. My husband is the cook in our house and is the worst about handwashing or obvious infection control, even long before covid. He thinks nothing of putting raw chicken on a plate, taking it outside to the grill, rinsing the plate off, then putting the cooked chicken back on it. I ask him to just "waste" a clean plate for the cooked chicken and to wash his hands after handling raw chicken. Also disinfect the countertop where raw meat was prepped. Sometimes I think it's a miracle we don't all get sick after every dinner from him.
He would also, even now, think nothing of coming home from the grocery store, make himself a sandwich, and eat it without washing his hands.
It drives me batty but really he NEVER GETS SICK, barely ever gets a cold. I can't even remember the last time he had anything except the flu back in early 2018. Meanwhile I'm the disinfecting nut job of the house and get sick 10x for every one time he gets something. The thing is he KNOWS handwashing kills germs. Even when he does wash, it's a very quickie version and not very thorough around the back of his hands to his wrists. Seriously, he wouldn't last 1 day at my job.

 

[BartmanLA]

Sorry source on that?

It was a news report on my local TV news, they said of those surveyed 43% would get the vaccine right away and another 45% would wait until it was more widely available to get it. The remaining either didn't know or would not get the vaccine. That's what I am going by I can't quote where the survey was conducted or by who.

 

[sethschroeder]

It was a news report on my local TV news, they said of those surveyed 43% would get the vaccine right away and another 45% would wait until it was more widely available to get it. The remaining either didn't know or would not get the vaccine. That's what I am going by I can't quote where the survey was conducted or by who.

Ya I would want to see the actual data on that poll.

I have a hard time believing that because its significantly higher than pretty much any other poll that has been taken. The 45% likely includes people waiting to see more information and people unlikely to get it but open to the idea which previously has been a 50/50 split area.

I have about a 0% confidence that if tomorrow everyone could get the vaccine 88% would get it.

 

[jane01jp]

Assuming we're still discussing Covid-19?
There is a clear line between facts, wishful thinking, fantasy, and lies when it comes to the virus.
Differences in opinion still have to follow Facts!

Are you collecting information to write an op-ed?
It seems that you're microdissecting everyone's comments/replies.

No. Not writing an op ed.

I think science and medicine have their place, which is to provide advice. An expert scientist, or doctor, however, is no more equipped to provide advice as to what people value than any other person is. We have a bunch of mandates that have been made in many states. I'm not aware that any of them has been debated by legislatures. I think a small selection of CS Lewis quotes might be in order (I thought the Disney Narnia connection might be compelling):

"When the whole world is running towards a cliff, he who is running in the other direction appears to have lost his mind."

"The most dangerous ideas in society are not the ones being argued, but the ones being assumed."

"Of all they tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive."

 

[Mousequake]

Would that mean that people who wear masks, yet don't embrace careful hand hygiene or fully embrace social distancing may not actually be helping? Maybe those other things, while not visible, are equally - if not more - important? If so, why do you think that so many people are receptive to wearing masks, but not receptive to embracing careful hand hygiene or fully embracing social distancing? Is it because they don't believe "the science," or is it because the wearing of masks is visible and discoverable and the other behaviors aren't?

I suspect it's because wearing a mask is a fairly benign thing to do that takes minimal effort. Embracing social distancing, which means giving up in-person contact with your friends and extended family, takes real sacrifice.

 

[lanejudy]

Sorry source on that?

I saw something similar on our news the other day -- CBS news and probably on Tuesday. Something like 80% plan to eventually get the vaccination, but 45% do not want to get it immediately and would prefer to wait a bit. I might be off +/- a couple of percentage points, going from memory. I think it was a "poll" more than a study, so it could be biased based on the sample polled.

 

[sethschroeder]

I saw something similar on our news the other day -- CBS news and probably on Tuesday. Something like 80% plan to eventually get the vaccination, but 45% do not want to get it immediately and would prefer to wait a bit. I might be off +/- a couple of percentage points, going from memory. I think it was a "poll" more than a study, so it could be biased based on the sample polled.

Ya that is more my thought. That 45% could be someone that just wants a few months of people taking it to see the reactions. It could also be someone who wants 1-2 years of it being "in the wild" to see at least short terms risks with it.

Since roughly 90% of kids get some of the primary vaccines it would line up with the numbers.

I think another thing is Vaccine vs Direct Exposure and the difference in protection if any. Do I take on possible side effects for something that possibly provides no additional benefit is a question being asked. I haven't come across much information on it yet.

 

[jane01jp]

I suspect it's because wearing a mask is a fairly benign thing to do that takes minimal effort. Embracing social distancing, which means giving up in-person contact with your friends and extended family, takes real sacrifice.

I think people want to be able to give the appearance of virtue. Otherwise, I wouldn't find the masks littered everywhere. It is not virtuous to litter. But, hey, no one's looking, right?

There are some questions that everyone should be asking about our societal responses to COVID:

1. Have the mandates imposed by our leaders delivered demonstrably positive and lasting results?
2. Have the costs of those mandates been evaluated and disclosed with the same vigor as the benefits?
3. Do our leaders take responsibility for the results of their mandates, both good and bad, or do they blame their citizens if things don’t work out? (and, as an aside, do they follow their own mandates or openly flout them?)
4. Who came up with the mandates, and why? Have alternatives been considered and objectively evaluated?
5. Do dissenting opinions receive a fair hearing, or are they suppressed?
6. What are the motivations for the mandates? Are they really in our best interests? Is there anyone who might economically benefit from lockdowns, to the detriment of others?
7. Are there gaps in consistency of the prevailing narrative?
8. Do we want to live in a society in which our civil rights become privileges to be doled out whenever it’s safe?
9. How are citizens being motivated to respond to dissenters?
10. Are the risks being communicated in a balanced way, or are they sensationalized?
11. How is success measured?
12. What is the end game?

I don't have all of the answers, but I do know that the wealth of billionaires has increased mightily this year (remember, the same guy controls Amazon and the Washington Post), small business is being eviscerated, suicides and mental illness have risen dramatically, etc. People who dare ask any of these questions are summarily dog-piled by their "friends," neighbors, and even family.

 

[sabrecmc]

Here is a link to an article about the poll on vaccine willingness: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/ame...vaccine-divided-timing-poll/story?id=74703426.

More than eight in 10 Americans say they would receive the vaccine, with 40% saying they would take it as soon as it's available to them and 44% saying they would wait a bit before getting it.

Only 15% said they would refuse the vaccine entirely in the new survey, which was conducted by Ipsos in partnership with ABC News using Ipsos' Knowledge Panel -- a reflection of growing confidence in the rapidly-developed vaccine, which marks a long-awaited turning point amid an unrelenting COVID-19 pandemic.

I think as we go along, more people will feel comfortable. I hope so, anyway.

 

[mom4fun]

Since we seem to be on the mask subject. I’m really curious how people that are pro mask feel about others wearing masks but hugging others? Am I wrong to think that doesn’t make sense?

 

[sullivan.kscott]

I think people want to be able to give the appearance of virtue. Otherwise, I wouldn't find the masks littered everywhere. It is not virtuous to litter. But, hey, no one's looking, right?

There are some questions that everyone should be asking about our societal responses to COVID:

1. Have the mandates imposed by our leaders delivered demonstrably positive and lasting results?
2. Have the costs of those mandates been evaluated and disclosed with the same vigor as the benefits?
3. Do our leaders take responsibility for the results of their mandates, both good and bad, or do they blame their citizens if things don’t work out? (and, as an aside, do they follow their own mandates or openly flout them?)
4. Who came up with the mandates, and why? Have alternatives been considered and objectively evaluated?
5. Do dissenting opinions receive a fair hearing, or are they suppressed?
6. What are the motivations for the mandates? Are they really in our best interests? Is there anyone who might economically benefit from lockdowns, to the detriment of others?
7. Are there gaps in consistency of the prevailing narrative?
8. Do we want to live in a society in which our civil rights become privileges to be doled out whenever it’s safe?
9. How are citizens being motivated to respond to dissenters?
10. Are the risks being communicated in a balanced way, or are they sensationalized?
11. How is success measured?
12. What is the end game?

I don't have all of the answers, but I do know that the wealth of billionaires has increased mightily this year (remember, the same guy controls Amazon and the Washington Post), small business is being eviscerated, suicides and mental illness have risen dramatically, etc. People who dare ask any of these questions are summarily dog-piled by their "friends," neighbors, and even family.

I can only speak to my personal experience, so all of this will be anecdotal to the intermountain west where I live. But here goes:

You're asking the right questions, but in the peak we're in it's difficult to do nothing. I think a lot of the nation's shut downs were premature in certain areas, without clear direction on what to do next. It has allowed for a lot of the fear (not mongering) that you describe. Curfews and even some/majority masking has proven to help. I still think indoor dining should be scaled back just a touch more, but could be deemed a hypocrite by some because my family and I enjoy one or two meals out weekly. Our theater of choice is a ghost town in normal times because we prefer smaller production film to blockbusters, and since reopening we are one of maybe 5 couples in a theater that seats about 150. My DS x2 are in person school because that is absolutely the best decision for most kids, and mine in particular. My point is you and I are probably in the same camp that if Wal-Mart and Costco can be open, and news anchors can be in studio, there's no reason to believe the neighborhood clothing boutique is inherently dangerous. That is absolutely a gap in the narrative.

I'm more than willing to listen to any and all. There are other crises beyond one virus, and my work with traumas has gone up considerably in the past 8 months (I'm a specialized tech in surgery). However, those same people (many my friends) need to understand (locally, again), that our hospital that provides care from northern Wyoming to western North Dakota to Great Falls, MT, is at 110% capacity and that hasn't gone down in weeks. We're still providing care to all specialties, not just COVID, but to think difficult decisions aren't on the horizon is a bit head in the sand.

Your last two questions are perhaps the most important in the next few months. I hope states start reporting how many people have been vaccinated in their state dashboards. If it can be directly tied that vaccination is providing relief from hospitalizations and death, we can "live" with the virus. At that point, but not now, I'll be right there with you picketing for a pretty quick change in direction (and to be back on a ship, gosh darn it). A lot of the same questions were asked by the GP from 1917-1920. But remember that just three short years later F Scott Fitzgerald had enough material to write The Great Gatsby. Socialization isn't going anywhere, but the fastest way to get back to it at this point is an effective vaccine. Here's to praying the ones we're getting really are just as the early data shows.

 

[mevelandry]

Since we seem to be on the mask subject. I’m really curious how people that are pro mask feel about others wearing masks but hugging others? Am I wrong to think that doesn’t make sense?

Sounds pretty risky. I wouldn’t do it.