The truth is coming out - Rumsfeld OK'd Abuses

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by faithinkarma
Can we please stop comparing apples to oranges? If your child gets caught stealing, will you say " so what, the other kid murdered?" To aspire only to be better than the lowest of the low, leaves much to be desired.

We ARE better than that. We need to act like it.

Please, please, please, stop defending the indefensible. A mistake was made....let us move along, turn the page, and do better...stop justifying it. Every time you do, you tarnish what Americans are fighting for.

VERY well said ! I've gotten to the point that it turns my stomach to see people brushing off what has happened over there as "nothing compared to the beheadings." Funny, but I always thought the US was supposed to set a higher standard than just being better than animals that would butcher other human beings, but apparently not.

 

[Saffron]

Thank you faithinkarma! That's what I've trying to say all along, but you did a much better job of saying it than I did.

 

[we3luvdisney]

Originally posted by Van Helsing
Article 4 Geneva Convention /

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

Based upon what you "quoted," does the U.K. classify captured members of the IRA as prisoners of war?

 

[Doug123]

Originally posted by jrydberg
If you had read my posts, you'd have seen that I don't advocate treating such prisoners inhumanely. But the simple fact is that according to international law and the Geneva Conventions, they are not entitled to anything. The US has afforded them much more in the way of treatment than international law stipulates.

Yes, I do consider myself a Christian and not hypocritically so. I don't appreciate your attitude. While I vehemently disagree with VH's position, I can respect his stance on it. Can you not do the same?

Note - as you stated, you clearly pointed out you are against the torture; as such, I should not have grouped you in as an example.

There are people on this thread/Board who make a point of saying that certain prisoners are not covered by the Geneva Conventions. This may be true or not true. However, in defending the position that they are not under International rules, the underlying message is it's ok to torture them.

How about a little discussion on "the right way" to treat these prisoners, and how the military -- under the Bush Administration's leadership -- has not been following those "rules" (in my definition of "right way").

 

[we3luvdisney]

Originally posted by we3luvdisney
Based upon what you "quoted," does the U.K. classify captured members of the IRA as prisoners of war?

I found this quote from the BBC:

"I'm ex military and served in Ireland. It was widely accepted that using force when necessary, was accepted by the government as standard practice. One example was when we caught three Provisional IRA suspects casing the area around a police station where other Provisional IRA suspects where held. Our orders were to detain the three Provisional IRA and extract what information was available. We got what we wanted. They lost their lives.

This happened all the time. Provisional IRA prisoners where released from the maze, only to be caught again and interrogated, then the evidence was cleaned up. What is going on in Iraq is only the tip of an iceberg that you really don't want to see.
Anon, London"

 

[Van Helsing]

We ARE better than that. We need to act like it.

Please, please, please, stop defending the indefensible. A mistake was made....let us move along, turn the page, and do better...stop justifying it. Every time you do, you tarnish what Americans are fighting for.

Well said

Based upon what you "quoted," does the U.K. classify captured members of the IRA as prisoners of war?

What War ?? its peace time

"I'm ex military and served in Ireland.

I knew them Irish soldiers were dodgy

 

[Saffron]

VH - you crack me up.

 

[AirForceRocks]

I've gotten to the point that it turns my stomach to see people brushing off what has happened over there as "nothing compared to the beheadings."

Stating the obvious is not the same as brushing off the Abu Ghraib abuse (and no, I haven't seen anything in pictures or video that I consider torture). Of course the abuse that took place at Abu Ghraib was wrong, and I hope that justice is served against those that committed those abuses. But the fact is that those abuses WERE nothing compared to the beheadings. It certainly doesn't justify the abuses, but it turns MY stomach to see people equate the two and say that what our soldiers did stoops to the level of what the butchers in Iraq and Saudi Arabia did.

 

[disneydad2]

DOUG123 - Take Michael Moore's school for creative editing? In your previous post you selectively edited some of the other peoples posts in such a way to alter what their point was - in order to convey yours.

 

[Doug123]

Take away all the quotes, if you'd like. I still stand by my point.

 

[we3luvdisney]

Originally posted by Van Helsing
What War ?? its peace time

Article 2 of the Geneva Convention

Article 2

In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peace time, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance.

Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.

 

[we3luvdisney]

Originally posted by Van Helsing
I knew them Irish soldiers were dodgy

Based upon your response you condone these activities and support their actions Why are you criticizing the United States and then turn a blind-eye to the problems in your country? I suggest you read John 8:7.

I'm ex military and served in Ireland. It was widely accepted that using force when necessary, was accepted by the government as standard practice. One example was when we caught three Provisional IRA suspects casing the area around a police station where other Provisional IRA suspects where held. Our orders were to detain the three Provisional IRA and extract what information was available. We got what we wanted. They lost their lives.

This happened all the time. Provisional IRA prisoners where released from the maze, only to be caught again and interrogated, then the evidence was cleaned up. What is going on in Iraq is only the tip of an iceberg that you really don't want to see.

 

[Van Helsing]

I'm ex military and served in Ireland.

Why are you criticizing the United States and then turn a blind-eye to the problems in your country?

Because i don't LIVE in Ireland

 

[ThreeCircles]

It is truly amazing to witness the degree to which w supporters will go in order to justify human rights violations, abuse, and torture.

Scary. Quite scary indeed.


*****
One sunny day in 2005 an old man approached the White House from across Pennsylvania Avenue, where he'd been sitting on a park bench. He spoke to the U. S. Marine standing guard and said, "I would like to go in and meet with President George W. Bush."

The Marine looked at the man and said, "Sir, Mr. Bush is no
longer president and no longer resides here."

The old man said, "Okay" and walked away.

The following day, the same man approached the White House and said to the same Marine, "I would like to go in and meet with President George W. Bush." The Marine again told the man, "Sir, Mr. Bush is no longer president and no longer resides here." The man thanked him and, again, just walked away.

The third day, the same man approached the White House and spoke to the very same U. S. Marine, saying "I would like to go in and meet with President George W. Bush."

The Marine, understandably agitated at this point, looked at the
man and said, "Sir, this is the third day in a row you have been here asking to speak to Mr. Bush. I've told you already that Mr. Bush is no longer the president and no longer resides here. Don't you understand?"

The old man looked at the Marine and said, "Oh, I understand. I just love hearing it."

The Marine snapped to attention, saluted, and said, "See you tomorrow."

*****

 

[jrydberg]

Fair enough Doug123... just don't want any confusion there. I do not and never will support prisoner abuse (regardless of classification).

 

[we3luvdisney]

Originally posted by Van Helsing
Because i don't LIVE in Ireland

Like always, avoiding the questions. What about article 2?

Please go back a read my postings. I never said where you lived. You seem to be an "expert" (I use this term VERY lightly), with all the problems of the world. I asked you a question, based upon your responses/statements in previous postings. You responded with an asinine statement. I quoted the Geneva Convention (article 2) in response to your statement --- "it's peace time." You responded with another asinine statement.

Fine, you don't live in Ireland. So, where do you live? Northern Ireland? I would like to know so I'll know which country you are an "expert" on. I find it senseless to waste time trying to debate a topic when someone doesn't give a damn or are afraid of acknowledging that they may be wrong.

FYI -- I blew off the posting by Dan, but he may have a point

 

[Douglas Dubh]

How about a little discussion on "the right way" to treat these prisoners, and how the military -- under the Bush Administration's leadership -- has not been following those "rules" (in my definition of "right way").

You are implying things that are simply not true. There is absolutley no evidence that the Bush administration or the military encouraged or condoned any act of abuse.

It is truly amazing to witness the degree to which w supporters will go in order to justify human rights violations, abuse, and torture.

No one is justifying those things.

 

[AirForceRocks]

Please, please, please, stop defending the indefensible.

Who in the world is defending what the military guards did? What they did was wrong, and I hope they're punished. But please explain to me how the abuse that we've all seen is AS BAD AS CUTTING OFF SOMEONE'S HEAD????

To say that one is not as as bad as the other is not to defend the lesser crime. I don't understand why you can't see that.

 

[Kallison]

at least we aren't beheading anyone

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by Kallison
at least we aren't beheading anyone

But can't you see Kallison? What our troops did was much worse than making someone beg for their life, beheading them, and then leaving their ****y-trapped body on the side of the road for US troops to find and hopefully be killed...

We're the bad guys here, not the terrorists...