The Running Thread--2024

Race Report: New England Green River Marathon

After selling out 2 years ago and not fitting the schedule last year, I was able to sign up and make this one yesterday. I’ll try to keep it somewhat short but complete.

The course is a very well marked USATF certified point to point (1 fairly short out and back to make the 26.2) run along the beautiful green river that starts at Marlboro college in VT and ends at Greenfield college in MA. It has some gorgeous scenery but some roads are open to traffic so it’s important to be vigilant, this was definitely not a problem though at any point in the race. It’s a small race with less than 400 finishers this year and has fantastic support as far as the course goes. There were aid stations approximately every 2 miles, all of which had both tailwind and water. The crowd support is somewhat lacking as it’s a very rural area outside of the start and finish. Bib pickup was very easy with options for the day before or at the starting line. Parking was fantastic with the college providing more than enough at the finish with buses right on time to take runners to the start.

That’s the good, what about the bad? I can’t say that it’s bad, only that it’s different - here is a brief description from the race website -

This is a net downhill (-1,459 feet) marathon (26.2 miles), and as such is a good candidate for a marathon PR and a BQ. The course has 650 ft. (198.1 m) of uphill and 2109 ft. (642.8 m) of downhill, for the net 1459 ft. net downhill. Keep in mind that this isn’t an easy course; no marathon is, and this one does have a few hills! But if you train right, it could be a fast one for you. The course is USATF-certified and is a qualifying race for Boston (Certification number MA18003JK). It was measured using a calibrated wheel device as per USATF regulations. The road surface is mostly packed dirt-and-gravel with a few sections of pavement until mile 21, and there are 5 miles of pavement at the end. Runners should train on dirt roads, rolling hills, and long downhills to prepare. Experienced marathoners complain about their quads after this race, so train for those downhills!

I can say that I was not fully aware of what to expect from running this distance on dirt roads or downhills.

The weather also couldn’t really be described as bad being that it’s the end of August so in New England it could be anything. The start was 56 and cloudy with very low humidity and the finish was 78 and cloudy with a T&D of 138. Most of the course is shaded with some spots where the sun peeked out but no where near the worst I’ve ran in.

So how did the day go?

I felt great going into this one, but a little different than usual. On one hand I was well rested from bringing my daughter back to school and enjoying a quick pre college vacation aboard the Wish. That being said my taper consisted of one 5 mile run, a 5K on Castaway Cay and 4 days of way too much food and drink. No matter, the work had been done and I should be ok, so when the gun went off it was my usual plan of run 4min/walk 30sec with a goal of 3:30:00.

My training leading up to this was very good and I was taking the advice from @DopeyBadger

Congrats on the race and valuable data gathered!

Based on the 1:39:27 HM in your profile, I'd agree that you're within striking distance of the 3:30 M. The math places the probability at the following assuming equal conditions to the 1:39 HM:

6% chance of 3:27 or better
10% chance of 3:29 or better
25% chance of 3:33 or better
50% chance of 3:41 or better

At 1:41 pace, you were doing a 7:42 min/mile (assuming 26.22 miles) and at 1:42 a 7:47 min/mile. The goal 3:30 pace is 8:01 min/mile pace. A 1:39:27 HM fitness level puts a 7:42-7:47 min/mile effort around 25-30km race pace. That's 15.5-18.6 miles. So I think the explanation for the late slow down at 17-20 miles, is that the pace of 7:42-7:47 is very near your race level effort for those distances, and not for a marathon. There's a razor thin margin, and it would appear you've crossed it in these attempts. I'd suggest trying to stick much closer to that 7:55-8:05 pace over the 7:42-7:47 pace, and I have a feeling it'll make a big difference outside of any training changes. Granted, even under the best conditions, you'd still have about a 10% chance or better based on your current PRs as the 1:39 HM is the best race equivalent of the ones you have listed. My advice for the summer, try to get your 5k under 21 min. That'll push the sub 3:30 from a 10% chance to a 25% chance and much better odds when following a well designed training plan.

I haven’t gotten the speed that I want yet but have been trying hard all summer for consistency.
My last long run I did 20 miles with a target of 10min/mile and all were between 9:40 and 10:18 with an average of 9:51 and a negative split so I knew I could be consistent, I just needed to make sure not to start too fast.

Well mile 1 showed how hard that would be, the start was a downhill on dirt and I was way too fast trying not to fall but also trying not to put on the brakes and beat up my legs, 7:01, definitely not sustainable. That’s ok, it was early and now level so I slowed it down, bouncing between 7:50 and 8:02 for the next 12 miles.

This is great! Feeling good I hit the halfway point at 1:44 and kept at it. For the next few the pace started slowing with mile 16 clocking in at 8:38. Mile 17 started an uphill and I quickly realized that I was tiring much faster than I have before. After looking back at times and weather and training I have to believe that the amount of extra energy expended trying to stay stable on dirt and gravel compounded over that many miles makes a huge difference. After the hill I was able to recover a little but there was no way to hit my goal. Maybe a new PR? No way, I hit another hill at mile 21 and clocked an 11:56. 22 and 23 came back down to 9 minute miles and then the wheels flew off in spectacular fashion. My body simply said no, no, and no. It was everything I could do once again to slog my way to the end clocking 12:54, 14:22, and 13:03 for the final 3 (the last one was downhill)

So it didn’t end the way I planned it, I’m still thrilled.
Why?

1 - I finished another marathon!
2 - it was a struggle but I managed to keep a sub 4 streak with a finish of 3:58:20!
3 - I got to meet new people and enjoy post race beers and food
4 - it’s a good long run complete with 5 weeks until the next 26.2

One more plus for such a small local race, the post race was probably the best I’ve seen yet.
Everyone was announced crossing the line, your medal (actually locally carved wooden medallion) was hung around your neck and you were handed a water. Then on to the snack table for your choice of water, tailwind, chips, pickles, bananas, or watermelon (I can say I never had watermelon taste so good)
Then it was onto one of three local food trucks, the beer tent, and farm made ice cream truck, all included with your bib.

A great race where they try to source everything locally to support the community, use only sustainable and recyclable products, and donate proceeds to the Connecticut River conservancy. I would run it again but not sure I would try for speed without different training. My quads are on fire today and I have aches and pains in my knees and ankles that I have not experienced in a long time.

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The start was 56 and cloudy with very low humidity and the finish was 78 and cloudy with a T&D of 138.
Congrats on another marathon @Dopey 2020. When you did the 1:39 HM, what was the T+D of that one? The 138 of this marathon would be a minimum of a 3% adjustment compared to ideal. Meaning a 8:01 pace becomes a 8:15 pace goal. I've also found personally, that the adjustment I use in training (like this 3% one) needs to have an additional bump due to it being a race. So I usually add a -1 on the VDOT score. So that takes the 3:36 marathon goal (43.1 VDOT) to a 3:40 (42.1 VDOT). So that's why I ask about that 1:39 HM value we're using as the baseline. If that race is under ideal conditions, but then the marathon is under non-ideal conditions, that's when I start making adjustments to pace goals. It takes what was a 8:01 pace goal up to a 8:23 just because of temperature. Under the T+D 138 conditions, the 8:01 pace would be perceived like 7:47 pace, and possibly as fast as 7:39 pace.

Using only the exact same measuring device, how does the HR of this race compare to your previous HM and M races?
 
Congrats on pulling out another sub-4! That medal is seriously beautiful.

I have to believe that the amount of extra energy expended trying to stay stable on dirt and gravel compounded over that many miles makes a huge difference
After moving up here last year I discovered something like 30% of the roads in Vermont are unpaved and even the flat-ish ones are NO JOKE to run on! Even the few short training runs I've done near my house have taken a far larger toll on my body than I anticipated. I also think it's extra mental capacity, like a trail run, where you really have to watch to make sure you don't go down in a weird rut or slip on some extra dirt.
 

Do any of you have a Garmin watch that has the option to notify an emergency contact in case of an incident? One of the people I follow on IG, who is training for a triathlon, crashed while out riding his bike and immediately it notified his wife that he had crashed and also sent his location. I am now very interested in this as when I do my bike training, I rode alone. Just wondering how well it works and if you have to also have your phone on you for the notification to work.

To my knowledge with Garmin they had the forerunner 945 LTE that you could do some of the things you would like, but two main things. It required an additional monthly or annual plan and it was very limited on what it could do.
I am not sure what they have now, but it looks like most of the watches would have to be connected to your phone, which kinda defeats the purpose. Like you, I do not like having my phone on me during runs.
So I run with my garmin because I like garmin connect better than what apple has to offer, but also have a apple watch that I wear at all times for medical reasons and being able to get in touch with someone if that medical condition occurs.
 
After looking back at times and weather and training I have to believe that the amount of extra energy expended trying to stay stable on dirt and gravel compounded over that many miles makes a huge difference.
I found that in my last 10 miler—whatever road surface they used on the city streets was more slippery under my shoes than the roads I run on in my neighborhood, so I had to be extra careful, and I’m sure it contributed to the muscle cramp/spasm I got in one calf in the latter miles.
 
Congrats on another marathon @Dopey 2020. When you did the 1:39 HM, what was the T+D of that one? The 138 of this marathon would be a minimum of a 3% adjustment compared to ideal. Meaning a 8:01 pace becomes a 8:15 pace goal. I've also found personally, that the adjustment I use in training (like this 3% one) needs to have an additional bump due to it being a race. So I usually add a -1 on the VDOT score. So that takes the 3:36 marathon goal (43.1 VDOT) to a 3:40 (42.1 VDOT). So that's why I ask about that 1:39 HM value we're using as the baseline. If that race is under ideal conditions, but then the marathon is under non-ideal conditions, that's when I start making adjustments to pace goals. It takes what was a 8:01 pace goal up to a 8:23 just because of temperature. Under the T+D 138 conditions, the 8:01 pace would be perceived like 7:47 pace, and possibly as fast as 7:39 pace.

Using only the exact same measuring device, how does the HR of this race compare to your previous HM and M races?
Not sure what the T&D was but not ideal, it was wine and dine 2021, shows a start of 51 with 76% humidity but no data at finish. My best since then was a 1:41 for the first half of a marathon this past April, the one where I went out too fast and that was 38 with 77% humidity at the start, again no finish line data but less than 60 and humid as I remember being cold. My last marathon heart rate averaged 175, prior to that was MW at 173, both measured by my Apple Watch which I have found to be fairly accurate when compared to both a chest strap on a tread mill and resting at my drs office.
This one I’m sure the weather had some effects as it warmed up but I am attributing the majority of slowing to the terrain. As today’s recovery continues I am getting more sore instead of better. I definitely underestimated the effects of running fast down hill. I think that got me even more than the gravel and dirt roads.
 
Not sure what the T&D was but not ideal, it was wine and dine 2021, shows a start of 51 with 76% humidity but no data at finish

Here's the historical per weather underground for Wine and Dine HM 2021:

https://www.wunderground.com/history/daily/us/fl/orlando/KMCO/date/2021-11-7

It was 52F with a DP of 43 (T+D 95 at ~5-6am start), and T+D 99 by 8am (longer than your finish). So the T+D stayed under 100, and would be considered ideal. Definitely loads better than the ending T+D of 138.

My last marathon heart rate averaged 175, prior to that was MW at 173, both measured by my Apple Watch which I have found to be fairly accurate when compared to both a chest strap on a tread mill and resting at my drs office.

HR is definitely in the same area as well (170-175). So that all seems in line.
 
I have both LiveTrack and Incident Detection setup for my Garmin. I've never had an incident while running, so can't comment on exactly how that works, but for LiveTrack, everytime I start a run my husband gets a text message saying I started my run, which lets him track me the whole time. I do need to bring my phone with me, which I don't mind doing for the peace of mind it gives me.
Several years ago DH was training for the Georgia Death Race (74ish miles through the N GA mountains) and he would send me a LiveTrack as he ran 6-8 hours. It alarmed me if his movement stopped for 5 minutes. It alarmed only once and when I frantically checked it I saw that his location was in the parking lot, so I called him. He had finished the run and stopped in the parking lot to talk to some mountain bikers and forgot to turn off the alarm! 🤣
 
My schedule is changing and I might start running/working out before work (without time for a shower) so ... hit me with your favorite shower wipes/shower alternative cleaning options!
I find that a simple washcloth (or the corner of a towel) that I can rinse at a sink is what makes me feel the freshest. The exfoliating/rubbing factor is there. As examples, that is what most people who have little access to fresh water, or are patient in a hospital bed, do.

I tried wipes before and they leave me with a sticky feeling.

Obviously, the most important for me after washing is to change into dry clothes.

One more thing to consider is, do you have a place for your running clothes to air dry a bit?
 
I find that a simple washcloth (or the corner of a towel) that I can rinse at a sink is what makes me feel the freshest. The exfoliating/rubbing factor is there. As examples, that is what most people who have little access to fresh water, or are patient in a hospital bed, do.
Ooh, I didn't think of the simple answer. I have lots of washcloths and definitely will have access to a sink.

One more thing to consider is, do you have a place for your running clothes to air dry a bit?
This is a good callout! Assuming they don't smell too much, I think I can lay them out on top of my filing cabinet.
 
I find that a simple washcloth (or the corner of a towel) that I can rinse at a sink is what makes me feel the freshest. The exfoliating/rubbing factor is there. As examples, that is what most people who have little access to fresh water, or are patient in a hospital bed, do.
This is what I do if I run at lunch and don’t have time to shower before I go back to my desk—a wet washcloth and dry clothes. But I work from home, so the level of cleanliness required is minimal 😂😂
 
My schedule is changing and I might start running/working out before work (without time for a shower) so ... hit me with your favorite shower wipes/shower alternative cleaning options!
They handed out something called “Dude Wipes” at the Chicago Marathon last year, marketing them like an after workout thing, last and I thought, Cool idea, and I think I used the sample and liked it. Then I saw them in Walmart later this year in the “moist” toilet wipe section and now I’m not sure what they are for!
 
I have also used Dude Wipes in the past when I was out at baseball practice/games and had to go somewhere afterward, like dinner. Heck, I have used them on a travel day back home from WDW when we went to the parks in the morning and then headed to the airport in the afternoon. Dude Wipes on the way to the airport.

For running at work, we have a little gym inside our office with a few shower rooms. Outside the shower rooms are rolls of plastic bags so you can put your sweaty clothes in. I throw my running clothes in those bags, tie it up, and throw in my gym bag. When I get home, the plastic bag gets ripped open and clothes right into the washer. In our previous office with a gym and showers, we had no plastic bags. So I used to bring plastic bags from Target and Walmart for the same effect.
 












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