The Running Thread -- 2022

[Dopey 2020]

UGH why does Disney keep taking things away that people love? Feels like a death of a thousand cuts lately.

it’s sad really, not just the 5K but no more bandanas in the room for pirate night. I usually bring something but those that don’t know about it will never know and I think it will also slowly go away. Seems like penny pinching to the nth degree.

 

[kps7795]

it’s sad really, not just the 5K but no more bandanas in the room for pirate night. I usually bring something but those that don’t know about it will never know and I think it will also slowly go away. Seems like penny pinching to the nth degree.

FWIW, we were on the Magic for the Greek Isles cruise in June and we received bandanas in the room for Pirate Night.

 

[kps7795]

I'm hoping that @DopeyBadger or someone else who has utilized the Hanson's marathon training plan can possibly vouch for their system. Yet again, Luke Humphrey said something that made me completely question if I should follow their plan for the marathon. In his 8/31/2020 podcast he actually said "the threshold is the four hour marathon...once you get slower than that, there's not really a difference between your easy pace and your marathon pace." However, the Hansons Marathon Method book reads that a Goal Marathon Time of 4:30:00 reads that an Easy Pace should be 12:16 and the Marathon Pace should be 10:18. Huh?!? Unless I'm reading the book wrong (it is possible, but I don't believe that I am), there is a two minute/mile difference between your easy run and your marathon pace/Tempo run.

 

[Dopey 2020]

FWIW, we were on the Magic for the Greek Isles cruise in June and we received bandanas in the room for Pirate Night.

Yup we were on the Dream in June (lots of future cruise credits to use up) and had the 5K and pirate as normal. That’s ok, it didn’t stop me or about 50 others from completing the circle of life and circle of death this AM. T and D was 163 when I ran it but it was fun. A couple cast members said they believe it will be brought back, possibly in more of a runDisney style, sounds like if the demand is there it will be a $$ excursion.




also if anyone wonders, took a slow run to meet up at Serenity Bay and from the start line direct down the runway measures .55 miles

 

[kps7795]

Yup we were on the Dream in June (lots of future cruise credits to use up) and had the 5K and pirate as normal. That’s ok, it didn’t stop me or about 50 others from completing the circle of life and circle of death this AM. T and D was 163 when I ran it but it was fun. A couple cast members said they believe it will be brought back, possibly in more of a runDisney style, sounds like if the demand is there it will be a $$ excursion.


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also if anyone wonders, took a slow run to meet up at Serenity Bay and from the start line direct down the runway measures .55 miles

I sent Disney Cruise Line an email earlier this morning asking them about the status of the Castaway Cay 5K. As expected, I'm still waiting for a response. That would be really ****ty if they started charging for the Castaway Cay 5K considering how much we pay for the cruises.

 

[cburnett11]

I'm hoping that @DopeyBadger or someone else who has utilized the Hanson's marathon training plan can possibly vouch for their system. Yet again, Luke Humphrey said something that made me completely question if I should follow their plan for the marathon. In his 8/31/2020 podcast he actually said "the threshold is the four hour marathon...once you get slower than that, there's not really a difference between your easy pace and your marathon pace." However, the Hansons Marathon Method book reads that a Goal Marathon Time of 4:30:00 reads that an Easy Pace should be 12:16 and the Marathon Pace should be 10:18. Huh?!? Unless I'm reading the book wrong (it is possible, but I don't believe that I am), there is a two minute/mile difference between your easy run and your marathon pace/Tempo run.

I hope that @DopeyBadger will chime in for you because he knows plenty about Hanson. I've trained with Hanson for probably 6 years or so. I really like that plan. When I picked Hanson, that is what Billy was using to train with and I reached out to him with many questions. It has served me pretty well. I will vary a little from it NOW because I've run/raced enough that I think I know my body and better understand the different workouts, etc. But I do think that it is a good plan. It's certainly not easy, but I think if you follow the book you'll be pleased with the outcome. But since marathon training is a process, and Hanson plan is based on cumulative fatigue, success will depend on doing all the workouts as laid out.

Having said all of that, I do like Luke Humphrey but I believe his verbal communication is not nearly as clear as his written words. I've tried a few times to listen to him, but in many cases I feel like he can confuse things more than necessary. I think people believe the book comes across as "too rigid", so part of me thinks that when Luke talks he tries to show extra flexibility or grace with paces, workouts, etc. I don't really know that to be true, that might just be how it comes across to me. I will use the pace information straight from the book. I'll use the workouts/calendar from the book AND sometimes I'll use one from the Hanson running store website.

Earlier this year, I purchased a discounted plan of Luke's specific for Boston Marathon training. There were many similarities with pure Hansons, but different workouts with hills, etc. I liked it as a change, but right now I'm training for Chicago and I am using the book. The only real adjustment I'm making is that I'm upping my long runs a little bit and more frequently. I don't recommend everyone doing that. I've just learned that I tend to race stronger if I run a lot of miles. Also, since I like the longer stuff and detest speed work, my focus on miles might just be me trying to make myself feel better.

And to answer your specific question, I think that the 2:00 difference works well for the marathon pace/marathon tempo vs. easy run. The bulk of your weekly mileage needs to be at that slower pace. This is a rule for many training plans including Hanson. I wouldn't let that podcast change anything.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I'm hoping that @DopeyBadger or someone else who has utilized the Hanson's marathon training plan can possibly vouch for their system.

Yes, I can vouch for their methodology. I've used it (or some variation of it) for eight of my sixteen marathons and have been successful with it every time.

Yet again, Luke Humphrey said something that made me completely question if I should follow their plan for the marathon. In his 8/31/2020 podcast he actually said "the threshold is the four hour marathon...once you get slower than that, there's not really a difference between your easy pace and your marathon pace." However, the Hansons Marathon Method book reads that a Goal Marathon Time of 4:30:00 reads that an Easy Pace should be 12:16 and the Marathon Pace should be 10:18. Huh?!? Unless I'm reading the book wrong (it is possible, but I don't believe that I am), there is a two minute/mile difference between your easy run and your marathon pace/Tempo run.

The episode in question (link) is about "How fast should I be running if I am not following a plan?" More specifically it's about someone in a free style training plan that's occurring between two training plans (like 4-6 weeks long) where the focus is exclusively on easy pacing. The specific quote in question is at 5:10 minute mark. He's saying that when not in a training plan and your fitness is > 4hr marathon, that your easy pace and marathon pace are going to feel generally the same. You're not as fatigued from workouts (because there aren't any) and you'll generally be faster overall in training paces. You're specifically looking at training paces for his training plan, which means the podcast episode isn't relevant since those paces in the book are the recommendations for his training plan.

I think one of the reasons why easy pace and marathon pace could both be seen as relatively easy for a >4 hr marathon runner is based on the concept of %VO2max and duration. Two runners can both do 120 min at M Tempo. But for one person M Tempo is 85% vVO2max and the other person it is 70% vVO2max. While it is the same duration of activity and same "race pace" the amount of effort given is not the same, such that for one person it feels easy and the other it does not.

If you're following the book based Hansons training plan, then follow the pace scheme as laid out in the book as well. The fewer changes you can make to the plan as written the more likely you are to succeed.

 

[cburnett11]

The fewer changes you can make to the plan as written the more likely you are to succeed.

I may do some slight changes now (I changed nothing the first several times I used Hanson), but THIS is what I tell everyone that asks me about the plan.

 

[GreatLakes]

I'm hoping that @DopeyBadger or someone else who has utilized the Hanson's marathon training plan can possibly vouch for their system. Yet again, Luke Humphrey said something that made me completely question if I should follow their plan for the marathon. In his 8/31/2020 podcast he actually said "the threshold is the four hour marathon...once you get slower than that, there's not really a difference between your easy pace and your marathon pace." However, the Hansons Marathon Method book reads that a Goal Marathon Time of 4:30:00 reads that an Easy Pace should be 12:16 and the Marathon Pace should be 10:18. Huh?!? Unless I'm reading the book wrong (it is possible, but I don't believe that I am), there is a two minute/mile difference between your easy run and your marathon pace/Tempo run.

I used the Hanson plan to finally get my BQ at marathon weekend and I'm using a bit of a modified half marathon plan to try for my sub 40:00 10k / sub 1:30 half double at W&D. I used the paces in the book with some slight adjustments based on the Daniels' book and calculator just to set the ends of my pace ranges but that was mostly for the shorter repeats.

I really like Hanson and would recommend it to anyone that can handle the volume. I think I would have had a shot at sub 3 had I used it ten years ago.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I may do some slight changes now (I changed nothing the first several times I used Hanson), but THIS is what I tell everyone that asks me about the plan.

100%. Technically speaking, I don't believe I've ever followed the plan as written. I've made edits here and there based on things I know to be true. But when it's your first go through, trust the plan as written. You can learn within the methodology what is appropriate and what isn't. The two biggest reasons the Hansons method will initially fail you are 1) You ran too fast when you should have been running slower and 2) You extended the long run outside of the %LR or duration caps in the plan as written. Those are common areas where people will edit the Hansons plan inappropriately. Obviously those, and the plan just isn't a good fit for someone if they don't have the history or available time for the plan as written.

 

[Bree]

I am using a Hanson plan for Chicago, but everyone else explained it a lot better than I ever could. I reach out directly to them on FB when I have a question or need to shift days around and the responses from him and the admins are very helpful. I have more confidence this year than I did last year training for Chicago. The mileage and intensity is much higher this year and, yes, I really started to feel the fatigue last week, but I am stronger. I have spent most of the summer on the treadmill, but was at Fort Wilderness a couple weeks ago and had no choice but to run outside. The workout had 4x1200m (.75 miles) @ 10K pace and it was ridiculously easy and I had to hold myself back and stick to the T+D adjusted paces.

Trust the plan and get all the runs and mileage in. You will see a difference in your performance and recovery versus the very popular 3 day just finish plan

 

[HangWithMerida]

I am also starting the beginner Hansons marathon plan from the book next week. I am wrapping up a HM plan of theirs right now but I purposefully chose one without speed or pace work because of the timing of this plan through southern TX summer months. These reminders were perfectly timed. I went back and reread some pertinent sections just to remind myself what’s going on with this plan. It will be interesting to see how the early speed weeks go. Though I haven’t been doing any speed work through the summer, I have built up a solid 25-30 mpw base in some crap conditions. Readjusting to a pace faster than a mosey will certainly be a change, but the HM plan has me feeling like I am in great shape. Strava has this fitness metric they graph out and it is estimating my current level of fitness at the same level as peak HM shape for my last PR in the middle of winter. And the whole plan was run at whatever pace you want so I went easy. I will revisit it for sure when I need to tune up for my next HM.

 

[jrsharp21]

I am also starting the beginner Hansons marathon plan from the book next week. I am wrapping up a HM plan of theirs right now but I purposefully chose one without speed or pace work because of the timing of this plan through southern TX summer months. These reminders were perfectly timed. I went back and reread some pertinent sections just to remind myself what’s going on with this plan. It will be interesting to see how the early speed weeks go. Though I haven’t been doing any speed work through the summer, I have built up a solid 25-30 mpw base in some crap conditions. Readjusting to a pace faster than a mosey will certainly be a change, but the HM plan has me feeling like I am in great shape. Strava has this fitness metric they graph out and it is estimating my current level of fitness at the same level as peak HM shape for my last PR in the middle of winter. And the whole plan was run at whatever pace you want so I went easy. I will revisit it for sure when I need to tune up for my next HM.

This summer has been brutal here in TX. Been out of town for the last 3 weeks where it was cooler weather. Went out to run on the waterway yesterday and today. It was miserable. Can’t wait until we see some type of cool down.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Strava has this fitness metric they graph out and it is estimating my current level of fitness at the same level as peak HM shape for my last PR in the middle of winter.

Are you referring to this:



I can't tell exactly how you're interpreting it based on your sentence, but in case anyone else comes across this Strava data and wants to know more about it. Think of it like "How much training have I been doing in the last week, and how does that compare to the last six weeks of training?". It's more a measure of training load (accumulation of training), then it is how fit or fast you are in a race. Some relationships could be drawn between "Fitness/Freshness" and your actual speed, but it's not exactly what the graph is showing you.

So if the Strava fitness value is roughly the same now as it was for you winter HM, then it means you're roughly doing the same amount of training load as you were doing back then. Whether your actual speed (or race performance ability) is the same between these two periods of time could be debated.

I cover this topic in these posts if anyone wants to learn more about the use of this tool:

Spoiler: Training Load Posts

Training Load

Spoiler: Training Load Posts

-A longer thread from earlier in 2018: The Beginner's Guide to Stravistix or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the TRIMP (started by @kleph)
-An explantation of the terminology and whether "Fitness" = Pace: "Fitness" and "Fatigue"
-More isn't always better
-Finally figured out how to apply the mathematical formula of Stress Score, "Fitness" and "Fatigue"

Now the parts that will be more interesting.

Training Load Calculations on Different Training Plans for Different Fitness Profiles
-Covers the following scenarios.
--4 hour runner vs 6 hour runner using traditional Galloway Advanced Marathon
--4 hour runner choosing between traditional Galloway Advanced Marathon and a hybrid with 4 days per week but minimized long run
--6 hour runner choosing between traditional Galloway Advanced Marathon and a hybrid with 4 days per week but minimized long run
--4 hour runner vs 5 hour runner using Hansons Advanced
--4 hour runner vs 5 hour runner using Hansons Advanced; Determining appropriate Base training
--4 hour runner vs 5 hour runner using Hansons Advanced; A Secondary method to make Hansons Advanced appropriate for 5 hr runner

Training Load Calculations on Different Training Plans for Different Fitness Profiles: Part 2
--Covers the following scenarios.
--4 hour runner choosing between Hansons Advanced and Higdon Advanced 2
--4 hour runner missing the last long run in Hansons Advanced: What truly happens to training load when you miss the last big training day???
--4 hour runner missing the entire peak week in Hansons Advanced: What truly happens to training load when you miss the entire peak week???
--4 hour runner who chooses to increase the long run in Hansons Advanced because 16 is just too short

4 hour marathon runner choosing between Hansons Advanced and Hansons Beginner

Training Load Calculations (What happens when the next cycle starts?): Part 3
--Runner decides to follow up 18 week Hansons Advanced with another 18 week Hansons Advanced starting right after the Marathon ends
--Runner decides to follow up 18 week Hansons Advanced with another 18 week Hansons Advanced starting 2 weeks after the Marathon ends and takes some time off
--Runner decides to follow up 18 week Hansons Advanced with 12 week Hansons Advanced starting 2 weeks after the Marathon ends and takes some time off
--Runner decides to follow up 18 week Hansons Advanced with 10 week Hansons Advanced starting 2 weeks after the Marathon ends and takes some time off
--Runner decides to follow up 18 week Hansons Advanced with 12 week Hansons Advanced starting right after the Marathon ends

 

[HangWithMerida]

Ahh. I was probably reading a bit too much into it. That makes sense.

 

[kps7795]

I sent Disney Cruise Line an email earlier this morning asking them about the status of the Castaway Cay 5K. As expected, I'm still waiting for a response. That would be really ****ty if they started charging for the Castaway Cay 5K considering how much we pay for the cruises.

UPDATE: I received the following email from Disney Cruise Line in response to my inquiry about the Castaway Cay 5K.

Caitlin (Disney Cruise Line) Aug 18, 2022, 5:10 PM EDT Dear Ken, Thank you for your email to Disney Cruise Line. I would be happy to assist you! While the 5K group race on Disney Castaway Cay has been temporarily suspended, Guests may run the race on their own (no registration required), while practicing physical distancing. All participants who complete the 5K run will receive a finishing medallion. Information on where and when Guests can pick up their medals will be made available via the Disney Cruise Line Navigator app. I hope this information has been helpful. If you require further assistance with any other inquiries, please feel free to contact us. We look forward to sailing with you! Have a Magical Day! Caitlin Email Communications Agent Disney Cruise Line

 

[Herding_Cats]

QOTD:
Are there any tips or tricks to keep bits of gravel and dirt out of one’s shoes when running off-road/on trails?

 

[jpeterson]

QOTD:
Are there any tips or tricks to keep bits of gravel and dirt out of one’s shoes when running off-road/on trails?

You can use shoe gaiters to help keep things out. https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/gaiters.html

 

[bovie]

QOTD:
Are there any tips or tricks to keep bits of gravel and dirt out of one’s shoes when running off-road/on trails?

I think gaiters are the answer, although I don't actually use them myself. I've heard particularly good things about the Dirty Girl Gaiters mentioned in this article:

https://www.irunfar.com/best-running-gaiters

 

[garneska]

@Herding_Cats you need gaiters. Try dirty girl gaiters. Lightweight I hike in them. If you use them I did not use the Velcro. i was given advice from an ultra to use T pins to stick the gaiters to your shoes. Works good for me hiking and would do it trail running.