The Running Thread - 2021

[GreatLakes]

I know a lot of people here listen to podcasts and I wanted to throw a new one out.

https://wondery.com/shows/business-movers/
Wondery actually has a lot of good shows but that new one is starting with Walt Disney and Project Future so I wanted to share.

 

[michigandergirl]

Flat Florida runner with a question.

I want to try and incorporate bridge repeats once a week, but really struggling with my web searches as HOW to do it. How long do I warm up? How many times up and down the bridge? What pace?

I have a bridge that spans a four lane road on a nearby trail. I can access it from either 2.25ish or .50ish miles from a parking lot. I have no idea how long it is or the incline. I think it extends longer on one side due to elevation as well. I tried measuring it from a satellite photo and I'm getting anywhere from 136 feet to .18 miles.

I have been doing a lot of hill repeats on my current plan. Warmup is 1.5 miles and cool down is 1 to 1.5 miles. The repeats are 30, 60, or 90 seconds long with a 1 minute rest interval, repeated 5 to 10 times. I run uphill at a moderately hard pace and then jog easy down. My workout yesterday was a ladder repeat where I did 30, 60, and 90 second repeats - that was brutal @DopeyBadger!

Overall I really like hill repeats, more than I ever thought I would, so even if all you've got to work with are bridge inclines, I would think it would still be beneficial to add them to your training.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Flat Florida runner with a question.

I want to try and incorporate bridge repeats once a week, but really struggling with my web searches as HOW to do it. How long do I warm up? How many times up and down the bridge? What pace?

I have a bridge that spans a four lane road on a nearby trail. I can access it from either 2.25ish or .50ish miles from a parking lot. I have no idea how long it is or the incline. I think it extends longer on one side due to elevation as well. I tried measuring it from a satellite photo and I'm getting anywhere from 136 feet to .18 miles.

I concur with others. About 10-20 min of warm-up minimum and 10-15 min of cool-down minimum. What you do between matters somewhat on what you're trying to accomplish.

Are you preparing for a hilly race, then potentially tempo pace up and down the hill at set time duration? Like for example, for simplicity say it's 0.2 miles and your HM pace was a 9:20 min/mile. Depending on the grade of the hill would dictate how much off you would be on both the downhill and uphill and it isn't realistic to believe that is what you're going to do on race day as well. In general, uphill will cost you more time than you can make up on the downhill. But if you run it a few times and get a general idea from your Garmin (or Google Earth), then we can come up with a general sense. But for example's sake, let's say the combined effect of the uphill and downhill is a grade adjusted pace of +10 seconds. So flat HM Tempo of 9:20 = uphill and downhill of 0.4 miles at 9:30 pace. For HM Tempo, you could do intervals of 6 x 10 min, 4 x 15 min, 3 x 20 min, 2 x 30 min, 15+20+5+20+15 all with some rest breaks (maybe 1 min rest every 7.5 min run). Volume wise, I probably would limit it to 60-80 min of HM Tempo pace work at the very most. I typically try to stay under 60 min.

Now if you were aiming to just get in a hill workout that's for the purpose of building a different type of muscular endurance, you could do something like @michigandergirl is talking about. For that, here's a seven week sequence:

1.5 mile WU + 2 sets of 5 x Uphill (30s w/ 1 min RI between each) w/ 5 min RI between sets + 1 mile CD
1.5 mile WU + 10 x Uphill (30s w/ 1 min RI between each) + 1.5 mile CD
1.5 mile WU + 5 x Uphill (60s w/ 2 min RI between each) + 1.5 mile CD
1.5 mile WU + 3 x Uphill (90s w/ 3 min RI between each) + 1.5 mile CD
1.5 mile WU + 5 x Uphill (30s w/ 1.5 min RI between each) + 1 mile CD
1.5 mile WU + 4 x Uphill Ladder (30s + 60s w/ Double rest min RI between each) + 1 mile CD
1.5 mile WU + 3 x Uphill Ladder (30s + 60s + 90s w/ Double rest min RI between each) + 1 mile CD

In this particular case the variable being manipulated is length of time running uphill and towards the end total volume of running uphill (starts off around 5 min and ends at around 9 min). The resting interval length (1 min per 30s) is mostly held constant, as is the pace of the run and rest. Like @GreatLakes mentions, the workout is done when you can no longer maintain a steady/consistent pace for each interval. Form matters when running uphill and a loss of form means the workout isn't doing it's intended purpose anymore. For this person, this leads into other training later for the goal race.

Or a different person with a slightly different desire:

1.5 mile WU + 2 sets of 5 x Uphill (30s w/ 1 min RI between each) w/ 4 min RI between sets + 1 mile CD
1 mile WU + 2 sets of 5 x Uphill (60s w/ 2 min RI between each) w/ 4 min RI between sets + 1 mile CD
2 mile WU + 10 x Uphill (60s w/ 2 min RI between each) + 1 mile CD
1 mile WU + 5 x Uphill (30s w/ 1.5 min RI between each) + 1 mile CD
1.5 mile WU + 6 x Uphill (90s w/ 3 min RI between each) + 1.5 mile CD
1.5 mile WU + 8 x Uphill Ladder (30s + 60s w/ Double rest min RI between each) + 1 mile CD
1.5 mile WU + 4 x Uphill Ladder (30s + 60s + 90s w/ Double rest min RI between each) + 1 mile CD
1.5 mile WU + 20 x Uphill (30s w/ 1 min RI between each) + 1 mile CD
1.5 mile WU + 5 x Uphill Ladder (30s + 60s + 90s w/ Double rest min RI between each) + 1 mile CD

This one is heavier on the volume, so I expect the relative pace/effort will be slower than the first person. Same rules apply though, if consistency of intervals fades, then it's time to stop. For this person, this is the primary purpose of training with the goal race coming after.

 

[avondale]

I have been doing a lot of hill repeats on my current plan. Warmup is 1.5 miles and cool down is 1 to 1.5 miles. The repeats are 30, 60, or 90 seconds long with a 1 minute rest interval, repeated 5 to 10 times. I run uphill at a moderately hard pace and then jog easy down. My workout yesterday was a ladder repeat where I did 30, 60, and 90 second repeats - that was brutal @DopeyBadger!

Overall I really like hill repeats, more than I ever thought I would, so even if all you've got to work with are bridge inclines, I would think it would still be beneficial to add them to your training.

This sounds suspiciously like the hill repeat plan he gave me last summer. I agree, I did like them more than I thought I would. But I also liked R-pace intervals on the track, and hill repeats are quite similar.

Right now, I am doing some hill repeats on a bit of a gentler hill and a bit longer duration.

 

[DopeyBadger]

This sounds suspiciously like the hill repeat plan he gave me last summer. I agree, I did like them more than I thought I would. But I also liked R-pace intervals on the track, and hill repeats are quite similar.

I just keep adding new training types to the repertoire. Since the research seems to point in a need for yearly diversity in type of training, it's important I keep reading books and literature looking for other designs of workouts. Essentially it means you can't keep doing the same thing year round and expect increased benefits. So for the people that I write continuous consecutive plans for that now span years, I've got to keep changing the stimulus on them. I'm now up to 31 different types of workouts. Find what works, and discard ones that don't.

 

[dis_or_dat]

2021 Goals: Just keep enjoying the runs - especially with family! But if by some miracle my marathon is in person this year, I'll do at least a 5 day a week plan, 4 days a week does not cut it for me even if I have no time goal.

ATTQOTD: pacing pacing pacing. Don't let the excitement of race day get you carried away with a faster pace at the beginning and then think you can bank the time. My last 2 races were negative splits and PRs. I also fueled, which I had never done before. But I think training and pacing were the biggest determining factors.
'

 

[xjillianpaige]

I live in a neighborhood that is fairly hilly. My 3 mile route from my house out and back is a very gradual hill. There are definitely some steeper hills off this main road, so I want to use them for hill workouts to help with my speed. Is there an ideal slope for a hill?

 

[jmasgat]

Not sure there is any one ideal, I'll just throw out that the BAA marathon training plan that I followed used 3-5% grade. But keep in mind that was for specific repeats-- uphill at 10k pace, downhill at MP, starting at 200m working up to 800m.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I live in a neighborhood that is fairly hilly. My 3 mile route from my house out and back is a very gradual hill. There are definitely some steeper hills off this main road, so I want to use them for hill workouts to help with my speed. Is there an ideal slope for a hill?

Per this article:

https://www.podiumrunner.com/training/hill-workouts-speed-strength-endurance/
They recommend 4-5% grade for long repeats (minutes), 6-8% for short repeats (30-90 seconds), and "steepest you can find" for sprints (8-10 sec).

 

[Rogue224]

This was very timely. I’m registered for the Pittsburgh half marathon at beginning of May. I’m surprised it hasn’t gone virtual yet. Anyways the course is hilly and some of the bridges are big inclines. I’ve always struggled towards the end and need to do more hill work. Fingers crossed it stays in person but I’m not optimistic.

 

[Guidman]

This was very timely. I’m registered for the Pittsburgh half marathon at beginning of May. I’m surprised it hasn’t gone virtual yet. Anyways the course is hilly and some of the bridges are big inclines. I’ve always struggled towards the end and need to do more hill work. Fingers crossed it stays in person but I’m not optimistic.

I'm from Pittsburgh and have done the race a bunch of times. I'd say there's slim to none chance it happens in person in May. The organization that puts it on has done a pretty good job canceling the other races they put on during the year in a timely matter. They aren't really even sending out the weekly e-mails they do normally during the year promoting it.

That said, for your training, add in some hills towards the end of your run if you want to mimic the course. The worst bridge is at mile 11-12 and it's pretty much all uphill. Thankfully they eliminated two other bridges you would run over three years ago and the last mile is net downhill. Good luck in your training.

 

[Herding_Cats]

A few questions as I make lists and prep for March training...

Is there a way for DH to share my garmin watch without him contributing mileage/active minutes to my account? I’m also syncing to Strava. We have other trackers (Fitbit charge 2 and charge 3), but the garmin does a better job on pace and distance. I don’t know that we will do our runs together just because of our schedules, and the fact that he is significantly faster than I am.


If I’m planning on running with a hydration vest this summer, at what point should I plan on getting one and wearing it? Just for long runs? Start with my shorter runs to get used to the feel/weight?

 

[DopeyBadger]

Is there a way for DH to share my garmin watch without him contributing mileage/active minutes to my account? I’m also syncing to Strava. We have other trackers (Fitbit charge 2 and charge 3), but the garmin does a better job on pace and distance. I don’t know that we will do our runs together just because of our schedules, and the fact that he is significantly faster than I am.

A cursory search shows it is possible, but cumbersome. You can't have two profiles on the same watch. But you could set up two different profiles for which to sync the Garmin data to. Then upload only your data immediately after you finish your run to your Garmin profile. I googled "Garmin Forerunner multiple users" to see some of the ideas on how to do it.

Alternatively, if he has no interest in saving his own data, then just have him delete the run/activity on the watch after he finishes. He gets the benefits of the watch during the run, but has no record of it afterwards. Since the activity isn't saved, then it may not show up in steps or affect performance measurements, but I can't be sure on that part.

In the event something accidentally uploads to either your Garmin or Strava profile that you don't want, you can always delete it.

If I’m planning on running with a hydration vest this summer, at what point should I plan on getting one and wearing it? Just for long runs? Start with my shorter runs to get used to the feel/weight?

Probably the sooner the better, and you give yourself ample time to test it out and decide if the vest you got is the one you want. I can't really see much downside.

 

[PrincessV]

QOTD: What are some of the things you did when you started running that you have since learned not to do today?

ATTQOTD:
When I first started doing long distances in the FL heat, I wasn't using electrolytes - I do now, religiously. Only took a couple bouts of heat stroke to figure it out, lol!

Flat Florida runner with a question.

I want to try and incorporate bridge repeats once a week, but really struggling with my web searches as HOW to do it. How long do I warm up? How many times up and down the bridge? What pace?

Fellow Flat Floridian here...
It depends on what my purpose is. Hill repeats to build speed: I like to do an easy 10 minutes flat to warm up, then I'll do :30-:45 uphill at a hard effort, 1:00-1:30 downhill recovery at a slow jog or walk. Repeat 6-10 times and follow with 5-10 minutes of flat cool down. When I train for WDW races, I add hills into my long runs so my poor quads don't explode during the race/s - nothing fancy; I have a very high, long bridge about 4 miles away, so I'll run to it, over it, then come back over (so 2x up and down), and return home on my weekly long run.
But when weather interferes, I'll do hill repeats on the treadmill for the uphill part, and run steps to strengthen my quads to simulate downhill running.

If I’m planning on running with a hydration vest this summer, at what point should I plan on getting one and wearing it? Just for long runs? Start with my shorter runs to get used to the feel/weight?

I started using hydration vests last spring to avoid using public water fountains during a pandemic... I never used them for short runs, but tried them on 6+ miles to start. I quickly found that they cause me a lot of back pain over about 12 miles, so definitely important to test them out and see what works for you for what distances.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Is there a place online where one can find like...last years vests? I’ve been looking at the Nathan vests, but spending another $150+ and not knowing if it’ll fit or work long term is daunting. My local store does not have any in stock. Even looking on like...poshmark/ebay is iffy because people are selling JUST the vest and by the time I bought new things to hold water is almost be at new price.

I *think* I want one that has a reservoir on the back and pockets or something on the front (for my phone, any fuel stuff I might use, etc.)

 

[GreatLakes]

A few questions as I make lists and prep for March training...

Is there a way for DH to share my garmin watch without him contributing mileage/active minutes to my account? I’m also syncing to Strava. We have other trackers (Fitbit charge 2 and charge 3), but the garmin does a better job on pace and distance. I don’t know that we will do our runs together just because of our schedules, and the fact that he is significantly faster than I am.


If I’m planning on running with a hydration vest this summer, at what point should I plan on getting one and wearing it? Just for long runs? Start with my shorter runs to get used to the feel/weight?

To piggyback off of what @DopeyBadger said there isn't a great way to do it. You can still get the raw .fit files off of the watch if you plug it in without syncing but keep in mind any Garmin watch that tracks VO2max or makes workout recommendations might not function correctly once you have multiple people using it.

I would suggest he just grab the cheapest Garmin or buy a used one and keep it separate. You can get new FR35 for under $200 and can probably find a used one for even less.

I'd get the vest as quickly as possible so you can try it out in advance of actually needing it. The best way to try on a wide array would be REI or a local running store that specializes in trail running. It is important to get the one the fits the best regardless of cost.

 

[Herding_Cats]

any Garmin watch that tracks VO2max or makes workout recommendations might not function correctly once you have multiple people using it.

I would suggest he just grab the cheapest Garmin or buy a used one and keep it separate. You can get new FR35 for under $200 and can probably find a used one for even less.

I'd get the vest as quickly as possible so you can try it out in advance of actually needing it. The best way to try on a wide array would be REI or a local running store that specializes in trail running. It is important to get the one the fits the best regardless of cost.

I got a FR35 for my birthday. I haven't used it much yet, because I don't *need* a gps watch for treadmill running. He will want to make do with his charge 2 or my charge 3 rather than spend more money, which is why I was trying to figure our if sharing was a possible thing.

As far as vests go, I've checked our local store and they don't have any in stock, and the closest REI is 2.5 hours away (in Grand Rapids). Ordering online is really the easiest way for me to "try" them out, especially since our oldest made JV basketball (and DH is the freshman team coach) AND our middle school season got pushed from "done by christmas" to "you're playing all of your games in 2.5 weeks in February." We have at least one game all but 6 days next month, and practices on all of the others. I am about to be a "basketball widow." Which all comes together to say that a roadtrip to GR isn't really in the cards any time soon.

 

[LSUlakes]

Hello everyone! I want to say I am happy to see the running thread lives on!! Soon I will return to my running ways and be a active part of these threads again as someone who is starting all over again. 2020.... what a crazy year. We moved and shortly after I took on a large (for me) project at our home now we had the room for it. Well, I am nearing the end of my project and can start the curing process with it and wanted to share with my fellow Disney friends, my Disney Inspired project. in about another 2 weeks I will be able to use it for it's intended purposes and finish up some cosmetic parts of the project. Going to need to start running again for sure for the weight gain coming from my new oven lol.


I'll add I've never worked with any of these types of materials before so it's been a huge learning process for me that started early in the morning and late into the night. I'm so excited!!!!

 

[camaker]

Is there a place online where one can find like...last years vests? I’ve been looking at the Nathan vests, but spending another $150+ and not knowing if it’ll fit or work long term is daunting. My local store does not have any in stock. Even looking on like...poshmark/ebay is iffy because people are selling JUST the vest and by the time I bought new things to hold water is almost be at new price.

I *think* I want one that has a reservoir on the back and pockets or something on the front (for my phone, any fuel stuff I might use, etc.)

Unfortunately, vests tend to largely keep the same design and are not changed seasonally like shoes. Looking somewhere like Amazon with their free returns policy might be best so you can get one and see if it fits comfortably with some assurance that you can return it. You definitely want a vest that fits you well. I’ll also throw out Orange Mud, too. They’ve got a wide range of hydration options and are pretty lenient with their return policy. I’ve had several of their items and love their Endurance Pack for running with a bladder. They’ve also been great to work with when needed, too. Good luck!

 

[MissLiss279]

@Herding_Cats

Unfortunately, vests tend to largely keep the same design and are not changed seasonally like shoes. Looking somewhere like Amazon with their free returns policy might be best so you can get one and see if it fits comfortably with some assurance that you can return it. You definitely want a vest that fits you well. I’ll also throw out Orange Mud, too. They’ve got a wide range of hydration options and are pretty lenient with their return policy. I’ve had several of their items and love their Endurance Pack for running with a bladder. They’ve also been great to work with when needed, too. Good luck!

I agree with all of this. I was going to suggest Amazon with their easy return process, And OrangeMud. I mainly use their HydraQuivers (single or double water bottle holder on back), but I also use the Gear Vest Pro (1L bladder with pockets up front) when I need a few more pockets for things.
I used a couple of Nathan Hydration packs when I first started running and had no issues with them. They worked well, but then I tried OrangeMud’s HydraQuiver - and ended up mainly sticking with it. I really like the HydraQuivers, but not everyone likes them; so although they work for me, they may not work for you.