The renter thing...again

[DisFlan]

Speaking of sales tax, what happens to the sales tax on rentals.

There isn't any.



DisFlan

 

[DisFlan]

Maybe we need a Rent board AND a Trade board?


ohhhhhhhhhhh I like that idea. Can we have it password protected just for DVC members, so we can have private price fixing discussions?

That was said sort of tongue-in-cheek, but now that I think about it....


DisFlan

 

[boatboatboat]

Gee, sorry, I forgot that this is a Disney message board. I didn't realize that I should feel obligated to be dragged into little one-upmanship games

well in the future I suggest you don't make the following comment, when entering a conversation.


Following comment=Boy oh boy, are you confused

probably not the best way IMHO to enter a conversation....... but it sparked debate, and from my persepective that is good.

 

[calypso*a*go-go]

Does there really need to be a civil war (or in this case uncivil) between the North and the South (IE: those that rent above or below the magical $10 boundary line)? For Pete's sake...it's your contract and you can do what you wish with it. This subject has been debated over and over again and it always concludes the same way--lock-down. It's starting to feel like San Quentin around here!

I definitely wouldn't turn down a few dollars more per point when renting, but I don't feel like I should be called names or threatened with a beating if I rent for an amount that is considered less than desirable by strangers on this board that know nothing about me or my circumstances. I bought the contract for my own families enjoyment -- not to help someone else make more off their investment by trying to dictate to me what I should and shouldn't charge if the need to rent arises.

So why doesn't everybody just mind their own business...and stop trying to run everyone else's.

 

[boatboatboat]

because we are price fixing.

trust me, you will be happy when you are getting fair mkt price like you should,.

we are the foot soldiers down in the trenches fighting for the bennifit of us all.

you are welcome.........

threatened with a beating

oh come on, no one here would beat you. we might rough ya up alittle, but we wouldn't BEAT YA........cuz we don't know were you live.

 

[LouisianaDisneyFan]

Part of the "renter thing" IMO is two different mindsets coming in conflict... Those 2 worlds collide because one of us sees getting a $300/night room for $160/night a real steal. The person who was led to believe they could beat the price of a Value see anything over $100/night (or $79/night or $89/night) as too high. They have certain expectations and are horrified when the reality is so much different. Sometimes they think they are being ripped off because after all "they have been told" we only pay $5/point and we're trying to double our money.

So, we are horrified when someone tries to "lowball" a DVC rental and they are horrified because they thought they could get 6 people into a WDW on property room for less than $100/night. (i'm not talking here about the people who go to WDW every 60 days by by shopping low priced points). Nobody is trying to rip anybody off, it's often just a case of misplaced expectations. One side is disappointed, the other side is insulted,everyone gets defensive, and pretty soon the thread is locked.

Hello... at the risk of being flamed, I am going to venture in with a post here. I'm one of the first-time renters you are all discussing, but let me also say, I am also the renter that Kick Save mentioned in his post about someone writing to him about his extra points... the one who's celebrating our 25th wedding anniversary. MikesMom summarized the situation very well here, IMO. Those of us who have not purchased DVC, or even explored the possibility before, can only go on rumors... or even moreso in my case... on hopes that something can work out affordably for a fantastic family vacation. I've been struck by many of the comments I've read in this thread regarding the interaction between renters and owners. As I previously owned a retail business, I can understand the frustration many of you feel with the typical attitude of many consumers who want to outdo the vendor without any regard that there are human beings with thoughts and feelings on BOTH sides of the business transaction. The thing is... not every potential renter is trying to stick it to you either. Some of us do have legitimate temporary financial hardship -- my family's is due to Katrina damage, a mother-in-law who now requires full-time medical care for Alzheimer's, a daughter who just got married in January, and two kids currently in college. Of course, planning a Disney vacation now is insane -- the last year has kicked us in the butt! But, giving up on a 10-year dream of renewing our wedding vows at Disney, with our famly surrounding us, is pretty hard to swallow too, especially given our last year from heck. Judging from Groucho's previous post, I guess we should be looking at Pop (which we've done before) or a tent at FW (which we've also done before) or off-site... but fortunately, we found several very kind DVC'ers who were willing to rent their points to a newbie and our dream will become reality. That, combined with a local church that will host our vow renewal, has made our dream possible. And, honestly, I think a church setting is much more "us" than the wedding pavilion ever could be. Our hardships are temporary, and one day we hope to be where you all are, as owners. But that time will be well past our 25th anniversary, as recovery is a slow process in Louisiana these days!

I also realize that some lowlife is probably reading my post right now, copying down the details of our history, and will paint my story as his/her own to some unsuspecting owner down the road in order to try and rent some points! Sadly, there are dishonest people and honest people everywhere, and spotting the difference is difficult. I just hope that you won't all give up on the potential good renters and go to an owner-transfer only system. Bottom line, is your DVC membership a joy to you that you want to share with others (i.e., share the dream with someone who might not otherwise have such a wonderful opportunity), or a business only, or something in between? Did you buy it mainly to bring your family closer and to grab a little Disney magic for your own, or did you buy it as an investment, or something in between? I hope you choose something in between... where everyone can feel some satisfaction and happiness in the process. We've purchased annual passes for the family for our vow renewal (in lieu of Christmas gifts), and we will in all likelihood be looking to rent again sometime during 2007 to make use of those passes. We have a precious few years left for these family vacations, with elderly parents and children in college... so if we can possibly reach for the dream successfully, we will.

Sorry for the soapbox. I just thought an entry from "the other side" might add a new dimension to your discussion. ~Ev

P.S. - calypso*a*go-go just hit another good point with the "north-south" reference... Some of the differences may stem simply from the typical cost of living from your own region of the country. We've been to Disney before where people from the Northeast are laughing hysterically about the great price they have received, whereas those of us po' folk from the South are looking at the same pricetags and sweating bullets when contemplating spending that much in comparison to our own salaries.

 

[calypso*a*go-go]

trust me, you will be happy when you are getting fair mkt price like you should,.

This would only concern me if I was using my DVC membership as a business...which I am not, (although it appears others are). That's really the root of the whole problem: it will not affect my bottom-line one iota (is that really a word?) whether I make any money off of renting points or not. I just don't want to see them wasted. I really don't care whether it's $10/pt or $20/pt -- I care more about finding a pool of renters to choose from that I have worked with in the past and will appreciate the opportunity to stay in some of WDW's best properties and will help protect my investment by not tearing the place apart. That's all that really matters to me (and there's a lot more people out there that feel the same way).

I would also like to point out that much of the hoopla over raising the rental price per point comes from members that have paid close to $100/pt for their initial contract...it is only natural that they would have a different perspective of the situation than someone that paid $50-$70 per point and has already saved enough money on their vacations to cover the original investment (and then some!).

 

[boatboatboat]

well those who paid 70 in 1999 would now have 119 dollars if they had invested the money rather then buying dvc.(that is based upon an 8% rate of return)

so from a #'s standpoint the owners of OLDER contracts have more invested when one takes ito consideration all the factors..


do keep in mind that rental prices have an affect of re-sale prices.

I guess the bottom line is that when WE rent at less the 11.50 per point we are paying out of OUR pockets for other peoples vacations. IMO the fair thing to do is to rent the points at 75% of mkt value for a room paying cash at disney, as long as the number is at a min break even price of 11.50.

I do respect your thoughts......

 

[Kick Save]

Gee, sorry, I forgot that this is a Disney message board. I didn't realize that I should feel obligated to be dragged into little one-upmanship games.

It's Disney themed, not Disney owned. We're still real people with real lives in the real world...one-upsmanship happens every day outside the Happiest Place On Earth.

You're too focused on maximizing rental income. Which is not what the DVC is supposed to do.

Whoa, whoa, whoa...if I own an apartment around the corner and I maximize my rental income that's good business. If I own a vacation home in the outer banks and rent it 48 weeks a year to maximize my rental income it's a good investment. But if my rental property has the first word of "Disney" and followed by "Vacation Club" I'm subjected to new business morals and your opinion of what's SUPPOSED to be right in Lake Buena Vista Florida? I bought it, if I can't use it shouldn't I get a fair return for it? Because it says "Disney" on the front I'm suddenly supposed to take a cheaper rate because that's what's "right" by Disney? (Who, ironically, is making money hand over fist on DVC to begin with.) Going back to your first response to me...I don't think I'm the one that's confused.

There are a set number of points made available to members every year. It doesn't matter who uses them. There is no harm to you if one member uses the points himself one year, GIVES them to a relative the next, and rents them to a non-member for a reasonable price the year after. It won't affect your ability to use your points and it won't affect your maintainence fees. It also won't affect how many rooms are available.

Everything you say here is absolutely true...but its on a tangent that has very little to do with the rental rate discussion you're attempting to create. From a rental stand point it DOES matter who uses them...if it's not the owner, then it's the renter and that most decidedly matters in a rental agreement. What an owner does with his/her points is definitely his/her decision, and all of those things you mentioned are things that an owner could do...one of their options is renting, that's what's being discussed here.

Ev, great post and I don't think you should be flamed. To follow up your post I'd like to say to other's here that you DIDN'T play the sympathy card during our discussions, you were straightforward with what you were after and that my terms were agreeable. Made it all pretty easy as nobody tried to "get over" on anybody else. Hope you have a great time.

 

[Groucho]

Whoa, whoa, whoa...if I own an apartment around the corner and I maximize my rental income that's good business. If I own a vacation home in the outer banks and rent it 48 weeks a year to maximize my rental income it's a good investment. But if my rental property has the first word of "Disney" and followed by "Vacation Club" I'm subjected to new business morals and your opinion of what's SUPPOSED to be right in Lake Buena Vista Florida?

You're comparing apples and oranges here.

One owns a rental property (apartment, condo, what have you) specifically to make money and does not benefit any way other than financially from that investment.

With the DVC, Disney are the true owners. (That's why, in 40-some years, they get it, rather than you going in there and taking the beds and microwaves home to your own house!) What a DVC member is doing when renting points is more like subletting. Disney is the one making the money off a property that they don't use themselves.

Disney makes it very, very clear when you purchase a contract, that you should NOT expect to make money on the investment. The way it is sold is for the buyer to use the points themselves for vacations. Remember that they tell you that transfers of points should NOT involve any money being transferred?

The point is, it's not my opinion nor a moral sense that's telling you this. Disney themselves did not design the DVC as a financial investment. Trying to make it work that way is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, and why the people who are trying to make money off of it are often so frustrated. You are, of course, welcome to try to make money off of it and probably can - but it is NOT comparable to a condo or apartment building.

edit: one more reason - the average DVC member has enough points for a week or two. If you own a condo or vacation home or apartment, you own it all year. So if you want to make a more valid comparion, buy 25-50x the amount of points you have now - enough to stay in your DVC property 365 days a year - and then rent them all out.

 

[boatboatboat]

well heck, maybe we should just give the pts away.

that would be magical..........

 

[LouisianaDisneyFan]

Ev, great post and I don't think you should be flamed. To follow up your post I'd like to say to other's here that you DIDN'T play the sympathy card during our discussions, you were straightforward with what you were after and that my terms were agreeable. Made it all pretty easy as nobody tried to "get over" on anybody else. Hope you have a great time.

Very true... we kept the business as business. I'm usually not a "boo hoo" kinda gal, but I wanted to illustrate the point that renters aren't always ungrateful, lying heathens! And, yes, I KNOW we will have a great time! LOL, our daughter and her husband are now wistfully looking at photos of where the rest of the family is booked. I suspect we will be back on the boards soon, searching for a third unit for them. ~Ev

 

[calypso*a*go-go]

Hi Ev -- I just wanted to say that I hope your Vow Renewal is truly magical. It sounds like you've been though a whole heck of a lot and deserve nothing but the best!

 

[Dean]

Vt I wanted to illustrate the point that renters aren't always ungrateful, lying heathens!

My experience is that the renters I've dealt with have been great people and very appreciative, with a couple of exceptions. For a number of years, the only problem I even had was with a member, someone from this board who agreed to a reservation then backed out.

 

[Dean]

Well, that's hardly the usual tactic I would think, considering that the rental has to be made in their name and they do not have the power to "sublet" it to another person. So were they renting or having points transferred? (And if someone really was poor, they ought to be staying at ASR or Pop or offsite!)

I think the person was having the points transferred to their account. Actually I think there have been a couple of people with variations on this them including one having holding account points transferred in which DVC didn't keep as holding account points. So they could rent them as regular points and get a lot more for them. In that case any concern should be with DVC, IMO.

 

[bdb7607]

This would only concern me if I was using my DVC membership as a business...which I am not, (although it appears others are). That's really the root of the whole problem: it will not affect my bottom-line one iota (is that really a word?) whether I make any money off of renting points or not. I just don't want to see them wasted. I really don't care whether it's $10/pt or $20/pt -- I care more about finding a pool of renters to choose from that I have worked with in the past and will appreciate the opportunity to stay in some of WDW's best properties and will help protect my investment by not tearing the place apart. That's all that really matters to me (and there's a lot more people out there that feel the same way).

I would also like to point out that much of the hoopla over raising the rental price per point comes from members that have paid close to $100/pt for their initial contract...it is only natural that they would have a different perspective of the situation than someone that paid $50-$70 per point and has already saved enough money on their vacations to cover the original investment (and then some!).

You have "150" points to rent because you cannot use them and you don't care if you get $1,500 or $3,000 ???? I'm confused....

Seems like Daitcher stated it correctly, find out the market price, offer 75% - truly logical and SAVES money for the renter!

 

[bdb7607]

Ok, some college kids stumble across these boards and are looking to rent points - they think:

$10 per point for a 100 point week = $1,000

$1,000 / 6 guys in a room = $166.66 per

The fact we can trash it and NOT be responsible for the damages = priceless

Obviously an extreme example, but you'd be surprised at how "nice" vacation renters "care" about the place they are renting.....they don't.

 

[calypso*a*go-go]

I'm confused....

I'm okay with that.

Just because you and I aren't on the same page doesn't mean we both can't enjoy the book.

 

[Dean]

Ok, some college kids stumble across these boards and are looking to rent points - they think:

$10 per point for a 100 point week = $1,000

$1,000 / 6 guys in a room = $166.66 per

The fact we can trash it and NOT be responsible for the damages = priceless

Obviously an extreme example, but you'd be surprised at how "nice" vacation renters "care" about the place they are renting.....they don't.

I've seen owners trash places pretty good, DVC and otherwise. And I don't buy the argument some make about owners taking better care of things. Just like anything else, some do and some don't. Some have used the rental car analogy but IMO, the frequency an owner uses DVC puts them in the ball park like having a rental car. I did ask a friend who was manager of a Marriott resort at the time and has extensive GM experience at several Marriott's, timeshare and otherwise. He said he didn't have any figures to go by but his impression was that renters vs owners vs exchangers made no difference. He did feel that age and group make up had a large influence.

Remember that the owner that rents out has some risk and responsibility on the stay as well.

 

[Kick Save]

You're comparing apples and oranges here.

Negative...a real estate purchase is a real estate purchase. The "end" of DVC is a little more clear than the end to buying your house, but both will end. Either way, you're puchasing a real estate intrest, what you do with your real estate interest is your business. Before you drop apples to oranges on me again, a DVC purchase and its interest qualifies as a second home and said interest payments can be written off the owner's taxes. 140 points at the Wilderness Lodge is real estate the same as a rental house on Maple Street in Ann Arbor, MI. Apples == apples.

One owns a rental property (apartment, condo, what have you) specifically to make money and does not benefit any way other than financially from that investment.

See above...real estate is real estate. If I had enough points to own a years worth of stay at WDW then that would be the same as the rental property, no? I don't own that much, but I own property in Florida none the less, and can rent/use it as I see fit.

With the DVC, Disney are the true owners. (That's why, in 40-some years, they get it, rather than you going in there and taking the beds and microwaves home to your own house!) What a DVC member is doing when renting points is more like subletting. Disney is the one making the money off a property that they don't use themselves.

Disney made their money off the property the day they sold it to me. After that, it's a usage thing only. Sure, they "own" the land and are leasing it to me, in turn I'm leasing it to somebody else...subletting if you will...and as such I should be able to set that price. Yes? You just said so yourself...

Disney makes it very, very clear when you purchase a contract, that you should NOT expect to make money on the investment. The way it is sold is for the buyer to use the points themselves for vacations. Remember that they tell you that transfers of points should NOT involve any money being transferred?

Disney makes no such promise when you purchase the property. I would be very interested to see where Disney says I should NOT expect to make money on purchasing an interest in the Disney Vacation Club. Very intersted indeed. The trasfer agreement states that I can't accept transfer of points from another member and make a profit off of those points...I'm not, these are MY points.

The point is, it's not my opinion nor a moral sense that's telling you this. Disney themselves did not design the DVC as a financial investment. Trying to make it work that way is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, and why the people who are trying to make money off of it are often so frustrated. You are, of course, welcome to try to make money off of it and probably can - but it is NOT comparable to a condo or apartment building.

Disney also designed Stitch's Great Escape...not everything works out as they design it. It is possible to make money off of DVC, as long as the member owns his points and solely rents them off. That's their business, and they can turn a profit. It won't be a big profit, but they can put some money away on the side...very similar to owning a condo or apartment building.

edit: one more reason - the average DVC member has enough points for a week or two. If you own a condo or vacation home or apartment, you own it all year. So if you want to make a more valid comparion, buy 25-50x the amount of points you have now - enough to stay in your DVC property 365 days a year - and then rent them all out.

You now want to change the discussion based on teh SIZE of the investment? Interesting...Average Property Owner doesn't own DVC nor a vacation Condo. Average DVC member owns a DVC membership, that's their business. Maybe they rent those points for $14 a point...GASP! The usage of perfect case arguments on your part is fun...of course there are obvious exceptions which seem to be ignored on your part.

I find your continuance of the "perfect" situation and the "Disney way" interesting. Real estate is real estate, if I buy it I'm in control of it's usage. I don't care if it's at the Boardwalk or a rental home in Walla-Walla, Washington. The Disney way and all your other heartstring arguments are cute, but this is capitalism at its finest...