The renter thing...again

[greenban]

I think the person was having the points transferred to their account. Actually I think there have been a couple of people with variations on this them including one having holding account points transferred in which DVC didn't keep as holding account points. So they could rent them as regular points and get a lot more for them. In that case any concern should be with DVC, IMO.

Dean:

FWIW:

I recently transferred in Holding Points from another member, and they maintained their Holding Status. So maybe the DVC is starting to figure it out!

(I had checked availability before transferring, so I was able to use the Holding points as is)

-Tony

 

[Dean]

Dean:

FWIW:

I recently transferred in Holding Points from another member, and they maintained their Holding Status. So maybe the DVC is starting to figure it out!

(I had checked availability before transferring, so I was able to use the Holding points as is)

-Tony

Did they hold the status or did the CM say they would. You'd actually have to check once they're in the account to be sure. They always tell you they will hold the home resort, use year and if applicable, the holding account status; but they rarely do.

 

[Groucho]

Disney makes no such promise when you purchase the property. I would be very interested to see where Disney says I should NOT expect to make money on purchasing an interest in the Disney Vacation Club. Very intersted indeed.

It's stated very clearly in many places. The first example I found was on the letter that I was sent when along with some other info around September of last year.

On the back of the letter, it states:
"Disney Vacation Club Membership is not to be viewed as an investment for the purposes of yielding an income or making a capital gain."

The same wording is also found (in big letters!) on another loose page promoting the "add a credit" (I assume that's the usual $8 off deal.) I believe it can probably be found on nearly all DVC promotional materials.

If that's not clear enough for you, try reading the Product Understanding Checklist - the one you signed when you purchased your contract. Specifically, #5:
"You acknowledge that your purchase of an Ownership interest is for your personal use as a vacation experience and not for the purpose of acquiring an income or appreciating investment. Vacation Points have no value other than being a vehicle to use your Ownership Interest to reserve accomodations."

This has nothing to do with "Disney magic", this is a very clearly stated, black-and-white fact - DVC is not designed to make you money. Purchasing a condo or vacation home or apartment complex or what have you IS designed to make you money. Note that DVC promotions always mention that it will SAVE you money, not MAKE you money.

Apples and oranges. If you expect to make a financial profit off DVC, then you bought the wrong investment!

 

[Daitcher]

Boy, boatboatboat just took you to the woodshed for a little a$$ whipping.

little? dude I am on the verge of being banned the way it is.

Once again, B3 is the best addition to these boards I've seen in quite some time.

Thanx, I enjoy it here. I wish you didn't own at SSR, we could rule the board if you were one of "my kind".

Just because I own there doesn't mean I'm a fan of the place. You'll see some jabs at SSR along the way from this corner.

DAVE

 

[crisi]

This has nothing to do with "Disney magic", this is a very clearly stated, black-and-white fact - DVC is not designed to make you money. Purchasing a condo or vacation home or apartment complex or what have you IS designed to make you money. Note that DVC promotions always mention that it will SAVE you money, not MAKE you money.

Apples and oranges. If you expect to make a financial profit off DVC, then you bought the wrong investment!

There are a few problems with using DVC to make rental income.

1) People who bought ten years ago have a significantly different cost basis than people who bought recently. We only bought four years ago - but bought our BWV resale for $63 a point. People who bought for personal use and rent once in a blue moon may consider their cost basis to be quite different (we get our ROI on our own stays, and aren't looking to pay for the base contract through rental) than people who need to make up the base cost of the contract - and sometimes financing - through rentals.

2) People who rent their points have different motivations for renting them. Someone who wants to maximize profit needs to compete with someone who wants to just cover the cost of a cruise and can do that for less than $10, or someone who needs to get rid of distressed points - and is willing to do that at $7 or $8. Someone who tries to sell points for $9.50 will probably get rid of them in a morning with one or two interactions with renters. Someone who tries to sell them for $12 may spend a week looking for someone to take them - for the second person, the cost differential may be worth the time, for the first person, it may not be.

3) Because renters have an imperfect understanding of the DVC system, they don't understand why BWV points at 11 1/2 months out are worth more than SSR points at the same time - or why those points are worth more than any point three months out.

4) As Mikesmom said - there is a conflict between what renters expect and want (they are looking at trading risk of a private party transaction and worse cancellation policies for a "cheap" room) with what members expect and want (a room in a Deluxe resort should be priced competatively with rooms in Deluxe resorts).

5) DVC has been known to "flood" the rental market with points through their promotional offers - the "extra points" offer in the not so distant past. For a lot of people, the promotional points are seen as nearly free and any rental income is profit - especially if they were buying points to start with, but can't make use of the promotional points.

You don't get to control what other people are willing to rent their points for. Nor do you get to control what people are willing to pay to rent points. This board is probably the worst place to maximize profit on points

This isn't to say it can't be done - but it isn't a business model I'd invest in.

 

[boatboatboat]

crisi great post. many valid points.

KICK SAVE, you are my hero.

 

[Kick Save]

Thanks, B3.

Groucho...very good legalese quoting, but that verbiage is more to cover Disney from a disgruntled renter, especially the "points have no value" part. Stating that up front covers them from Joe Renter complaining to WDW about what they paid for the accomodations. It also sets the owners expectation of being able to make money off of if by renting, which really isn't a great way to make money. I agree with you that the vacation home or the apartment is a much better real estate investment.

If it was for the express use of stopping renting of points, they whould stopped the renting by now. In reality, Disney sold us the property, er points, and we're in turn using those points for ourselves or somebody else to occupy their rooms then spend money in their theme parks, and eat at their resturants. From Disney's standpoint the DVC is pre-booking hotel rooms each and every year, do you really think they care if its the owner or somebody renting from the owner? In this sense, they've moved the reservation process over to a third party who's basically doing it for free.

What's really funny about this...I didn't buy DVC as an investment, I bought it for my own use with the possibility of renting off excess points to help others get nice accomodations at Disney. If it was a sole investment I'd be over on eBay renting my points for $17, not here concerned with $10 or $11 dollars...

 

[boatboatboat]

This whole ebay thing is interesting......

If I had the know how, I would book the 5 days after Christmas at BWV, and run an add on e-bay.

BWV still has one bedrooms for then. The way the days fall is perfect. Sun-Thur.

Could prolly get 400 bucks a night.

hmmmmmmmmmmmm

It's time the tide rushes in rather then out. THIS side of the beach is rather dry.

 

[greenban]

Did they hold the status or did the CM say they would. You'd actually have to check once they're in the account to be sure. They always tell you they will hold the home resort, use year and if applicable, the holding account status; but they rarely do.

No they actually held the status. UY and Home resort 'changed' to my account from what they originally were, but the holding status stayed.

e.g. MS-Agent, "....You now have 12 2005 UY points left, 60 Holding Points that expire xx/xx/2006 and 123 2006 UY point left in your contract...."

I was able to book a ressie less than 60 days out. So I don't know if I had a conscientious (spelling-sorry) MS Agent, or their computers can sucessfully follow Holding status, while still not following UY and Home Resort!

-Tony

 

[Daitcher]

Thanks, B3.

Groucho...very good legalese quoting, but that verbiage is more to cover Disney from a disgruntled renter, especially the "points have no value" part. Stating that up front covers them from Joe Renter complaining to WDW about what they paid for the accomodations. It also sets the owners expectation of being able to make money off of if by renting, which really isn't a great way to make money. I agree with you that the vacation home or the apartment is a much better real estate investment.

If it was for the express use of stopping renting of points, they whould stopped the renting by now. In reality, Disney sold us the property, er points, and we're in turn using those points for ourselves or somebody else to occupy their rooms then spend money in their theme parks, and eat at their resturants. From Disney's standpoint the DVC is pre-booking hotel rooms each and every year, do you really think they care if its the owner or somebody renting from the owner? In this sense, they've moved the reservation process over to a third party who's basically doing it for free.

What's really funny about this...I didn't buy DVC as an investment, I bought it for my own use with the possibility of renting off excess points to help others get nice accomodations at Disney. If it was a sole investment I'd be over on eBay renting my points for $17, not here concerned with $10 or $11 dollars...

Good post kicksave, you are starting to win me over.


DAVE

 

[crisi]

If it was for the express use of stopping renting of points, they whould stopped the renting by now. In reality, Disney sold us the property, er points, and we're in turn using those points for ourselves or somebody else to occupy their rooms then spend money in their theme parks, and eat at their resturants. From Disney's standpoint the DVC is pre-booking hotel rooms each and every year, do you really think they care if its the owner or somebody renting from the owner? In this sense, they've moved the reservation process over to a third party who's basically doing it for free.

I disagree - I think that as long as Disney doesn't see DVC rentals as impacting their market share and does see it contributing to the sales of DVC units, they won't choose to try and enforce their "no commercial use" clause. I think that when/if Disney has no resorts to sell (and therefore rentals don't contribute to DVCs bottom line and DVC rentals impact the market share of resorts, Disney may choose begin "legal intimidation" to stop large scale rentals.

I think they DO care who stays in a DVC room if the occupant would be staying at POR if they weren't renting points - especially if occupancy rates at resorts fall (they've been pretty high the past few years) and if there is no opportunity to transition the renter to an owner.

 

[Dean]

It's stated very clearly in many places. The first example I found was on the letter that I was sent when along with some other info around September of last year.

On the back of the letter, it states:
"Disney Vacation Club Membership is not to be viewed as an investment for the purposes of yielding an income or making a capital gain."

The same wording is also found (in big letters!) on another loose page promoting the "add a credit" (I assume that's the usual $8 off deal.) I believe it can probably be found on nearly all DVC promotional materials.

If that's not clear enough for you, try reading the Product Understanding Checklist - the one you signed when you purchased your contract. Specifically, #5:
"You acknowledge that your purchase of an Ownership interest is for your personal use as a vacation experience and not for the purpose of acquiring an income or appreciating investment. Vacation Points have no value other than being a vehicle to use your Ownership Interest to reserve accomodations."

This has nothing to do with "Disney magic", this is a very clearly stated, black-and-white fact - DVC is not designed to make you money. Purchasing a condo or vacation home or apartment complex or what have you IS designed to make you money. Note that DVC promotions always mention that it will SAVE you money, not MAKE you money.

Apples and oranges. If you expect to make a financial profit off DVC, then you bought the wrong investment!

DVC is required by state law to put the clause in that states that DVC does not represent that a buyer can make money on the ownership. You simply are acknowledging that you understand there are no guarantees. But assuming one knows there are no guarantees, it's not a threat that you can't make a reasonable return. I'd agree that DVC is not likely to make money for one who buys today though it has in the past for many.

 

[rinkwide]

DVC is required by state law to put the clause in that states that DVC does not represent that a buyer can make money on the ownership. You simply are acknowledging that you understand there are no guarantees. But assuming one knows there are no guarantees, it's not a threat that you can't make a reasonable return...

Why is it that the correct interpretation of that disclaimer is so hard for some people to understand?

 

[nathandunn]

I agree with the owners, if you have points and cant use them, instead of selling them for $9 or $10, dont sell them. Lose the money you would have goten for the sale, but rest easy and know that nobody else got them either. Sure your out about $800 bucks but ... wait ... Get the best market value you can get! The beauty of a market economy.

 

[Dean]

Why is it that the correct interpretation of that disclaimer is so hard for some people to understand?

Just my opinions here. I think there are a couple of reasons and just another example of members learning a little about DVC and not having a full knowledge of the industry. Some read it and take it at a twisted face value. Others make up their mind they don't want members to rent and can only look at things in such a way that they see what fits their bias. No different than what some people do with immunizations. The phrase "don't confuse me with facts" comes to mind.

It's there because the state says it's has to be there. DVC wants it there so you can't go back to them and complain about it. Yes, it's that simple. Here's the wording from the statutes themselves

2. The following statement in conspicuous type in substantially the following form: The purchase of a timeshare interest should be based upon its value as a vacation experience or for spending leisure time, and not considered for purposes of acquiring an appreciating investment or with an expectation that the timeshare interest may be resold.

 

[Groucho]

Just my opinions here. I think there are a couple of reasons and just another example of members learning a little about DVC and not having a full knowledge of the industry. Some read it and take it at a twisted face value. Others make up their mind they don't want members to rent and can only look at things in such a way that they see what fits their bias. No different than what some people do with immunizations. The phrase "don't confuse me with facts" comes to mind.

I'm not sure what you mean by "not wanting members to rent" - I haven't seen that opinion stated; as far as I know, everything thinks that members should be able to rent. (Heck, renting for the first year or two is part of how I budgeted for my purchase - though I hopefully won't need to as the years go on, but I had no need for my '05 points since we were just there and will probably have a pregnant wife then a newborn during my '06 points.) The debate is how much the points are worth. If there ARE people who think that members shouldn't be allowed to rent, then I'll be happy to debate them.

Anyway, I never claimed that you couldn't make money on DVC. Obviously, you can. And of course it's legalese, but someone said "Disney never says that, show me there they say that", and I did.

My point is that in all the DVC marketing, there's no suggestion of making money, and as far as I can see, there is no mention of renting or transferring points ANYWHERE outside of the "legalese" fine print - in other words, they don't even tell you any possible way that you could bring in an income from the points. It simply is not sold that way, and the system is not designed that way. I would challenge anyone to find where Disney says that the members SHOULD make money off DVC. Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

It all boils down to this - it's clear that the vast majority of people renting on the boards here are perfectly content asking $10. These are people who bought DVCs for their families and friends (in other words - most members), NOT to make a profit. It's not fair to demand that they charge more so that others can make a larger profit, and not fair to denigrate those who charge less or imply that they're uninformed. (Someone made a good garage sale analogy.) So if someone isn't happy with what the points rent for, then they should go rent them on eBay for more; they're wasting their breath trying to convince people to change. It'll change on its own over time, and you're welcome to ask whatever you want for your points.

 

[LouisianaDisneyFan]

Another post from the viewpoint of the renter...

I've read all the posts about the fair market value of the price per point in relation to the price of renting a comparable room through Disney, and I've also read the proposed figure of 75% of what Disney charges.

Well, I can get a 15% discount through AAA, and often more than that from Disney through AP discounts. If I rent through Disney, I have complete assurance that my accommodations will be there when I arrive, as requested. I know Disney will not back out of the commitment for many reasons... they're not likely to yank it at the last minute because their daughter, or aunt, or neighbor decided they want the points instead. If something happens to the room I was promised, it's highly probable they can find accommodations for me in another resort. So, when I book my non-refundable airfare, request vacation time from work, and pay my room deposit, I can rest assured that I WILL be having a vacation at WDW on the dates booked. My ability to cancel with WDW goes until a week before my trip as well, so it's like getting free trip insurance. My deposit is also much smaller when booking with Disney, as they only require one night's lodging at the time the reservation is made. The Disney desire for positive goodwill, the vastness of their corporate holdings to absorb small losses to make the customer happy, and my past experiences with them all tell me the experience will be positive.

When I rent from a DVC owner, however, I have no such assurances. If the original contract that owners sign specifies that money isn't to change hands when allowing others to use your points (I don't know, because I've never seen this contract), then my contract with the owner, whether written or oral, is not enforceable because the owner had no ability to contract in the first place. So, I have taken a very significant risk. I've done the same trip prep as I would with Disney, and invested significant time and money toward my travel with absolutely no guarantee that the trip will actually go as planned. If something unforeseen happens to the resort booked (Heaven forbid!), the owner has no ability to offer me alternative accommodations. If I have a family emergency 2 weeks out, I'm SOL because it's past the owner's timeline for banking the points. If the owner hasn't paid his dues, or has some other membership issues and the reservation is cancelled, what recourse do I have as a renter? Sure, I could sue the owner, but as I said before, in all likelihood my contract would not be enforceable... not to mention the headache involved in trying to conduct a lawsuit this small from one state to another. At the very least, my vacation plans would be completely ruined, and that is something that cannot be recovered. In many cases, owners have required payment in full at the time the confirmation number is delivered, so my ability to rebook another vacation is shot.

That's a tremendous amount of risk and trust on the part of the renter. Granted, I know trust is involved on both sides of this transaction, but I don't think I would have been motivated to place that kind of trust in a total stranger with an incentive of <10% savings (AAA or AP savings versus the proposed figure of 75% of Disney room rates). Now, I believe the owners I am working with are all great people, and I am not worried... but I would not have even considered the rental process if the savings would be so minimal. I'm not looking for a debate with these comments... I'm just giving you the flip side from the renter's point of view. ~Ev

 

[Groucho]

Well, I can get a 15% discount through AAA, and often more than that from Disney through AP discounts. If I rent through Disney, I have complete assurance that my accommodations will be there when I arrive, as requested.

There's also the occasional MYW-only promotions. When I went in January, we got free park hopper and water park add-ons, plus a room discount, which saved us over $400. "And that ain't hay, brother!"

 

[Daitcher]

Groucho,


I have to admire your willingness to "stick to it" no matter how wrong you are. Now you are disputing Dean? My other post to you was removed so hopefully you read that one too.

Have a nice day,


DAVE

 

[boatboatboat]

LouisianaDisneyFan

I have 2 questions.

#1 Have you ever rented from a DVC owner and had them cancel your trip and keep your money?

#2 Would you like to see pts stay at the same price today (10 bucks each) that they were 10 years ago, even though WDW has raised room rates almost every year over that time span?