The Poly2 Pricing Thread

[tom1944]

When does Disney take back the Dolphin/Swan land? Was it sold outright or did Disney lease the land?

 

[Jwaire]

I never knew YC was that popular with groups and conventions. I always thought Swan Dolphin took care of those needs in that area and the Balue resorts took care of the rest.

It used to be fairly popular.

I'm not sure post-COVID about the conference/events market. Walt Disney World has 4 other resorts with conference centers (Grand Floridian, Contemporary, Coronado Springs and Boardwalk) with multiple ballrooms at each resort. So, that doesn't preclude DVC from happening.

And with Yacht Club being on Tikiman's future DVC list from 7 or 8 years ago, and everything else on that list coming true—it's hard to believe they wouldn't do it someday.

 

[Jwaire]

When does Disney take back the Dolphin/Swan land? Was it sold outright or did Disney lease the land?

It's a 99 year lease, but Tishman owns the buildings as part of the settlement agreement. Disney did not finance or build the Swan and Dolphin, although Eisner chose the architect and had it designed.

Pre-Eisner, Tishman and Disney had an exclusive hotel operating agreement for Walt Disney World.

According to the LA Times,

"In the Tishman lawsuit, the construction company had contended that Disney had promised not to allow any other hotel firm to operate a convention hotel inside the park for 10 years after the Sheraton complex opened but then considered granting Marriott Corp. the right to operate a central hotel reservation system and a possible joint venture with Marriott to build moderate-priced hotels."

 

[DonMacGregor]

I never knew YC was that popular with groups and conventions. I always thought Swan Dolphin took care of those needs in that area and the Balue resorts took care of the rest.

It is very popular, as is Coronado Springs (which I believe actually has the biggest Disney-owned convention facility on property, at a quarter of a million square feet). The value resorts are geared towards providing accommodations only for large groups like cheerleading competitions, that are actually held at ESPN, or other sites. The deluxe hotels cater to on-site conventions and conferences (held at the hotel in the hotel's convention center). The value resorts don't even offer small meeting rooms.

 

[TheDailyMoo]

It is very popular, as is Coronado Springs (which I believe actually has the biggest Disney-owned convention facility on property, at a quarter of a million square feet). The value resorts are geared towards providing accommodations only for large groups like cheerleading competitions, that are actually held at ESPN, or other sites. The deluxe hotels cater to on-site conventions and conferences (held at the hotel in the hotel's convention center). The value resorts don't even offer small meeting rooms.

Swan Dolphin still does the most conference volume out of all the hotels I would presume?

 

[tom1944]

Swan Dolphin still does the most conference volume out of all the hotels I would presume?

My daughter was a comedian at a conference there in July.

She makes fun of her father. She’s lucky I provide a lot of material.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Swan Dolphin still does the most conference volume out of all the hotels I would presume?

I have no clue about that. I do know that the Disney hotels that cater to conventions (YC and CSR) are highly profitable in that book of business and there's zero chance they are going to tear down a convention space to build a DVC tower when they can book out that space, plus keep extremely high occupancy rates on cash rooms. (The Contemporary also has a convention space, but it is much smaller and situated such that it can't be expanded, or torn down to build more rooms, cash or DVC).

 

[TheDailyMoo]

I have no clue about that. I do know that the Disney hotels that cater to conventions (YC and CSR) are highly profitable in that book of business and there's zero chance they are going to tear down a convention space to build a DVC tower when they can book out that space, plus keep extremely high occupancy rates on cash rooms. (The Contemporary also has a convention space, but it is much smaller and situated such that it can't be expanded, or torn down to build more rooms, cash or DVC).

You got me wondering about adding on in the area and depending on which parts fall under the 1/3rd conservation there is still a lot of room to build a smallish footprint standalone DVC tower a la Riv. Would anyone happen to know what that construction site is that the arrow is point to next to the solar farms?

 

[Jwaire]

You got me wondering about adding on in the area and depending on which parts fall under the 1/3rd conservation there is still a lot of room to build a smallish footprint standalone DVC tower a la Riv. Would anyone happen to know what that construction site is that the arrow is point to next to the solar farms?

It used to be a retention pond. The parking lot has a new rideshare area.

I don't think the conservation areas matter much. If they want to develop it, it's just a matter of costs (assuming it's suitable) and whether they want to put in the extra effort to build on it. They've purchased additional acreage to offset the conservation areas before.

I think we're done for awhile, but my likely places that are coming next are Yacht Club (eventually), front of EPCOT, Caribbean Beach area, Reflections area and there's always the prime, yet illustrious Mediterranean Resort area near the Contemporary.

They need to focus on park capacity before considering any additional hotels—particularly moderate or deluxe properties.

 

[DonMacGregor]

I think we're done for awhile, but my likely places that are coming next are Yacht Club (eventually), front of EPCOT, Caribbean Beach area, Reflections area and there's always the prime, yet illustrious Mediterranean Resort area near the Contemporary.

I'd bet on the Reflections site, or the space between the TTC and Contemporary. Both sites have already had extensive soil surveys done, and reflections has already had some mass grading, so it's further along than any other buildable land. I could also see another tower at CSR (even though that is a moderate resort), to bookend Gran Destino (which is already a fantastic tower on par with, if not better than, BLT). It puts another DVC resort right between HS and AK, and the proposed conversion of cabins at Fort Wilderness to DVC indicates to me that building on a moderate resort property isn't off the table.

I just don't see any upside to adding on at YC, given it's profitability as a convention facility, the limited area to expand into, and the fact that two of the three Crescent Lake properties already have a DVC component. Something southwest of Epcot/HS seems more attractive.

 

[Jwaire]

I'd bet on the Reflections site, or the space between the TTC and Contemporary. Both sites have already had extensive soil surveys done, and reflections has already had some mass grading, so it's further along than any other buildable land. I could also see another tower at CSR (even though that is a moderate resort), to bookend Gran Destino (which is already a fantastic tower on par with, if not better than, BLT). It puts another DVC resort right between HS and AK, and the proposed conversion of cabins at Fort Wilderness to DVC indicates to me that building on a moderate resort property isn't off the table.

Riviera is on moderate resort property. They just tore it down.

I wouldn't be surprised if a tower is built on the Reflections ground as part of Phase II of the Fort Wilderness DVC.

The only problem with Gran Destino is again you get into the business/convention resort problem again. So, there's a cost/analysis that has to go on there on whether it's worth it.

That area has been rumored to get a Skyliner expansion, so who knows what happens in the next 20 years.

 

[KimMcGowan]

But isn’t that what they had to do to get current sales at VGF to become strong? It could not compete with RIV when it was more expensive.

No matter what is done, price is the number one factor in swaying new buyers to one resort or the other.

I actually think they had to discount it because it is just a glorified hotel room and not an actual DVC studio. This is purely my belief, I don’t have any kind of stats to back up my assertion. However, I think if it had been actual studios they would have sold without discounting. That was certainly a reason we would not consider buying there (and also because my DH absolutely hates the “pretentious” atmosphere- he is, of course, an idiot ).

 

[DonMacGregor]

The only problem with Gran Destino is again you get into the business/convention resort problem again. So, there's a cost/analysis that has to go on there on whether it's worth it.

True, but at YC they'd have to demo the convention center to make room. At CSR, they have nothing BUT room, and zero need to touch the convention center. We've all see the size of the new tower there, and it's sitting in that tiny space inside the red oval:

 

[DonMacGregor]

Riviera is on moderate resort property. They just tore it down.

I meant adding a DVC tower to an existing moderate property (many are of the opinion that DVC will only ever be built on deluxe resorts). I think the cabins at FW disprove that notion. With Riviera, they just tore down those CBR buildings, and constructed a new, stand alone resort that has nothing to do with CBR.

 

[Jwaire]

True, but at YC they'd have to demo the convention center to make room. At CSR, they have nothing BUT room, and zero need to touch the convention center. We've all see the size of the new tower there, and it's sitting in that tiny space inside the red oval:

I feel like we would be more in line to get the Rancho or Cabanas rooms as DVC than build another tower there, but who knows. This resort is another one that wouldn't take much to convert from moderate to deluxe. It's already a moderate+ anyway just because of its amenities such as the two lobbies, feature pool and tons of food options. It just lacks transportation, but that could come in the future with Skyliner.

For some reason, I also think it's near the area they marked off for a possible 5th gate. Someone could dig up the last RCID map.

I meant adding a DVC tower to an existing moderate property (many are of the opinion that DVC will only ever be built on deluxe resorts). I think the cabins at FW disprove that notion. With Riviera, they just tore down those CBR buildings, and constructed a new, stand alone resort that has nothing to do with CBR.

That's why I'm wondering if a tower doesn't come in Phase II and they're going to try to glow-up Fort Wilderness.

 

[Ruttangel]

I actually think they had to discount it because it is just a glorified hotel room and not an actual DVC studio.

You still get access to the old deluxe studios as well so not sure that will be the reason.
The sales are driven by price but also which resort that guides lean new buyers towards.

This summer they’ve just pushed to sell it out and it worked

 

[Sandisw]

I actually think they had to discount it because it is just a glorified hotel room and not an actual DVC studio. This is purely my belief, I don’t have any kind of stats to back up my assertion. However, I think if it had been actual studios they would have sold without discounting. That was certainly a reason we would not consider buying there (and also because my DH absolutely hates the “pretentious” atmosphere- he is, of course, an idiot ).

Thst very possibly could be part of the reason. But it still goes to the fact that every resort they build has pros/cons and thst each will have a price point that makes it attractive to buyers.

RIV has restrictions and it has turned people away. But not to a degree that it was overcome when DVD made it slightly less than VGF.

Next year, with four active selling resorts (forget AUL) three at WDW, they will have to be creative with pricing which will impact people’s choices.

You have to wonder how that played into the decision for what Poly tower will be.

 

[Mikey15]

Next year, with four active selling resorts (forget AUL) three at WDW, they will have to be creative with pricing which will impact people’s choices.

You have to wonder how that played into the decision for what Poly tower will be.

I will say despite the "three WDW resorts on sale at the same time!" situation, they'll be in a surprisingly decent position to market them all:
-Three distinct themes
-Three distinct areas of the property
-Possibly all three having restrictions, so that doesn't muddy the water between them
-Possibly all three with long expiry dates
-Potential to "price tier" the pitch... maybe Poly draws people in, but you can get Riv or CFW for less either per point or per night

If you were going to sell three at the same time, this is how you'd want to do it.

 

[Sandisw]

I will say despite the "three WDW resorts on sale at the same time!" situation, they'll be in a surprisingly decent position to market them all:
-Three distinct themes
-Three distinct areas of the property
-Possibly all three having restrictions, so that doesn't muddy the water between them
-Possibly all three with long expiry dates
-Potential to "price tier" the pitch... maybe Poly draws people in, but you can get Riv or CFW for less either per point or per night

If you were going to sell three at the same time, this is how you'd want to do it.

It is why I am having a hard time imagining that they would have decided to make Poly tower part of PVB.

Let's face it...out of the three WDW properties, it is bound to be the most popular given its an MK resort....we have to be down to less than 6 months until we have our answer of the association!!!

 

[DisneyFive]

Assuming that the towers will only be 1br, 2br and 3br's, has this been answered?...

My speculation... I expect the new Poly Tower to be rolled into the existing association.

Reason being, there is no other DVC property at WDW that only has 1- 3 bedroom offerings and no studios. Not having studios would really reduce it's attractiveness. Guests want those lower point rooms when they need them. Aren't studio rooms, on average, the highest demand rooms across all WDW DVC properties versus 1br-3br's? They have high value for many guests due to far less points. It's hard for me to imagine that Disney could easily get folks to pony up for enough direct points for 1br-3 br offerings without the availability of studios in the mix.