The new resale rule: The Empire Strikes Back

[bicker]

Your blanket defense of Disney in this matter is troubling. Your distorting the truth in their defense.

First, I'm not "defending" Disney - they need no defense because they've done nothing wrong. Second, I've distorted nothing.

Although you bring up what is in the contract as binding and the whole truth "which I agree it is legally" the substance of what you left out is whats important. Many people go down to Disney and take the tour and hear all about this wonderful DVC membership.

I went through the spiel three times. Disney is very clear about the fact that what they describe is how things are currently, and that it is my responsibility to read the spec and understand all the details.

Advertising is supposed to present the positive attributes of what's being sold. If you think that advertisements are going to be balanced analyses of what is being sold then you're in for a rude awakening. It is your responsibility as a buyer to read and understand everything you can to learn about what you're buying.

Disney has not only always complied with every legal requirement on them, in my dealings with them vis a vis DVC, but in my experience they're among the best in the industry with regard to being up-front, honest and low-pressure.

If you willing to just roll over and play dead while Disney does what they want without a fight after you have dished out so much money is saddening.

Holy cow, talk about projecting. There is nothing to "roll over and play dead". I didn't deceive myself into thinking that there were the kind of guarantees that apparently you convinced yourself existed. There is nothing to fight, because there is nothing wrong going on here.

You want them to operate differently, that's your prerogative. Tell them. You are. Don't think I have to take up your cause.

 

[maminnie]

Just wondering why you are surprised that many of us bought to use our timeshare?

What other reason is there to own a timeshare but to use it? Every DVC member certainly can look at this and determine their own opinion of what it does or does not do to what they bought.

In the cases, like you, who may have really needed it to hold its value, you used past performance to sway your decision. Some of us chose to look at past performance as a bonus, not a guarantee.

And, yes, Disney is a business and to be honest, as a member who may want to cruise at some point using my points, the fact that there will be less people able to choose that option could turn into a benefit to me as a direct purchaser. I guess I just don't really see how this move says Disney doesn't care about its members. Their job is to keep the DVC program up to par and if making resale points not as flexible as direct purchase points (for however long they choose to do that) keeps DVC up and running, then that is what they should be doing.

Fortunately I don't need to sell at this time. It was simply nice to know that the money was there if our vacation habits changed or if life threw us a curveball like it has to so many of our fellow members. I kept an eye on the resale values for years and years and was pleased at what I saw. It was only this wonderful member enhancement that now will likely alter that. What other 'member enhancements' could negatively impact members in the future maybe even the direct members someday?????

Please remember that you as a direct buyer may too become a resale seller someday......life has many unknowns. I hope that life continues to treat you well.

As far as cruising availability at the expense of others, I would prefer that all DVC members have that option not just me as a direct buyer.

 

[epd0407]

Please remember that you as a direct buyer may too become a resale seller someday......life has many unknowns. I hope that life continues to treat you well.

Well said..

 

[CMOORE185]

Your blanket defense of Disney in this matter is troubling. Your distorting the truth in their defense. Although you bring up what is in the contract as binding and the whole truth "which I agree it is legally" the substance of what you left out is whats important. Many people go down to Disney and take the tour and hear all about this wonderful DVC membership. "I will qualify that the phone guides do the same". When the Sales "liars" are done and they get your money will you deny what exactly they told you comes with this membership? On first contact with my "direct" guide some of the first things he touted are the banking and borrowing along with the ability to stay at ANY DVC resort. I dont know of ANY member who on day one while thinking about purchasing was provided a "contract" in its entirety to read... "Hell, im well within my process and I have yet to see one".

I remember from my law classes and according to local laws anyway that a verbal contract does have some weight and if this was to be changed in that manner I would be the first to seek out an attorney and file a class action lawsuit against Disney. The way Disney is selling these is borderline deceptive if that is the case. I know I have NEVER received a disclaimer from a guide I talked to.

If you willing to just roll over and play dead while Disney does what they want without a fight after you have dished out so much money is saddening. They made this change, if you dont at least make your opinion known to them they will consider doing anything they want in the future to devalue your investment. scenarios like this have happened throughout history where a leader starts small all of a sudden all freedoms are taken away.

I do not know about all sales people but mine was very honest and truthful, which is one reason I purchased DVC over other timeshares. I specifically remember him making a point of letting us know not to buy DVC as an investment. He told us the value of DVC was in its long term use, and not to expect to ever get our initial investment back should we decide to sell. He made it clear to us that a timeshare may not have much of a resale value in the future.

 

[bicker]

If I'm going to push DVC for anything, it would be to include park admission in the reservations, not for broader support for exchanges.

 

[lugnut33]

No matter what anybody says about the rules of membership in DVC there was an implied value to the points you owned, and now that implied value HAS CHANGED due to the new decision. DVC is allowed to do whatever he heck they want, that is true, but it is also true that their decision effects the end value of contracts for many many members that end up selling. So, why should they be punished?

It's just like that points readjustment they did when BLT opened that left many new BLT owners a few points short from what they had figured they needed for a stay. And then on top of that they implemented the minimum point buy. I felt really bad for any of the owners that got stuck in that (I'm not one of them). Sure, DVC can do it, it just doesn't make one feel good.

Also, how is tanking the resale market in the best interest of DVC owners? Yeah, it remains to be seen what will happen to the resale market, but you can bet it's going down.

Now, how do I feel about it concerning my points? Well, I really don't have a lot of points and don't plan on selling soon, so it's no big deal. I bought resale and all my points fall under the old rules. I do know I probably will not buy any new or used points going forward. I'd be scared to buy direct from Disney since the value of the points plummets as soon as you get them.

 

[crisi]

Fortunately I don't need to sell at this time. It was simply nice to know that the money was there if our vacation habits changed or if life threw us a curveball like it has to so many of our fellow members. I kept an eye on the resale values for years and years and was pleased at what I saw. It was only this wonderful member enhancement that now will likely alter that. What other 'member enhancements' could negatively impact members in the future maybe even the direct members someday?????

Please remember that you as a direct buyer may too become a resale seller someday......life has many unknowns. I hope that life continues to treat you well.

I did too. I like it when my assets appreciate. But I don't buy a timeshare unless I can afford it to depreciate, I don't invest money I need in the stock market. Boy, its fun to look at a portfolio that has gone up. And boy is it a kick in the teeth to look at it when its down. But that's the reality of many assets.

Any "down" that hits that would make me regret buying DVC would make me regret spending money on vacations for the past ten years. I'd be beating myself up over "I should have spent less" not "DVC resale values should be higher."

 

[A&M's Mommy]

....since the value of the points plummets as soon as you get them.

This makes no sense to me at all. Did you not purchase the points to use them?? I know I did.

It is not as if you are buying 100 BLT points from Disney, then come to find out, "Oh, sorry. Those points can no longer be used to book a vacation at BLT". THAT would cause the value of your points to plummet.

 

[paults]

lets see I bought 150 pts resale in 2002 for $9900 then in 2003 added on 100 pts direct for $7200. total 250 pts BWV for $17,100

I got 9 yrs vacations ( with multiple rooms about 21 trips total) at great DVC resorts. IF I sell in 5 or 10 yrs ( after another 20 or so trips) and get $40 a pt that would be $10,000 minus comm. $1,000 . OK so now I make about $9,000 back. ( just an example folks we don't know what the resale prices will be then.) My loss then would be $7100 + sales comm $1000=8100
My 1st 2 trips to BW/BWV without DVC in 2002 ( 2 or more rooms) would have been over $8000 and with DVC I've been there 20+ so times.
Even at $30 pt I still get about $6500 back.
the lost money to me is money well spent.

I could care less about the perks they take away( that life it's just s perk) we didn't pay for them.
What I'm saying is if anyone thinks they will get back what they paid they have a problem. If you can get back half of it I would be happy.

 

[Figment2]

And then on top of that they implemented the minimum point buy. I felt really bad for any of the owners that got stuck in that (I'm not one of them).

Not sure what you mean by your statement. When I bought in way back in 2000, there was a minimum buy in of 160 points. Several years ago they lowered it to 100 points on specific resorts. i never looked at it as "getting stuck" when I made my purchase.

No one has mentioned ROFR. If being able to use points on cruises, etc. is important to a buyer than they will go direct to Disney. If they want a resort like BWV or BCV, Disney is going to have to maintain an inventory of sold out resorts. So doesn't it follow that Disney may be exercising ROFR a lot more often? That appeals to me as a seller (I sold Wilderness points about 5 years ago and Disney exercised ROFR - had a check in hand within two weeks). Will the price be lower? Probably, but I have had ten years of great vacations with lots of memories.

JMHO

 

[Lynne M]

The reason so many of us are so calm about this is that we understood the changes that could occur when we bought in, because we carefully read the contract. We factored all of that into our buying decision, and came to the conclusion that DVC would be a good value for us even if we only got what was specified in the contract.

I don't care about cruises or free valet parking or AP discounts or RCI. I bought to have pre-paid lodging at VWL for x number of years. I pay out of pocket for my other vacations. Now, if DVC wants to give me other ways to use the points, or discounts on a meal here or there, awesome. I'll gladly take it. But I don't expect it, or believe that they somehow 'owe' it to me. They owe me what's in the contract. End of story.

I'm not particularly concerned about the resale value, because I never expected it to stay high. DVC is a pre-paid vacation plan, with an end date. It's inherently a depreciating asset. The closer you get to the end date, the less it's worth. The fact that Disney's ROFR-ing artificially pumped up the prices doesn't change that.

I have no intention of selling, but if I was forced to, I surely wouldn't expect to get what I paid for it, or anything close, because there are now 10 fewer years on the contract than when I bought it. I've already gotten more than my money's worth out of it, anything I get out of a sale would be gravy.

Regarding what you hear at the sales presentation....it's advertising. Selling. Of course they're going to emphasize the positive features of the product, and de-emphasize the negative. That's not being misleading. When you got to a car dealership,the salesman isn't going to pull out the list of recalls and go over it with you. A soup commercial doesn't end by saying "and hey, you should see the size of the rats in our factory!"

It's the consumer's job to research what they're buying. I assume everyone here carefully reads their car leasing contract, their mortgage contract, their pest-control contract before signing it. You don't get upset when the bank changes the rate on your adjustable-rate mortgage, because the contract says they can do that. Why get mad at Disney when they make a change that's allowable under the contract?

I understand that there's a strong emotional component to many people's relationship with Disney. We've all been marinating in a lifetime of Disney's very skillful marketing, that makes us feel like we're their family and friends. But behind that marketing is a publicly-held company with profit targets to meet. Not family. Not friends. A DVC contract is a business relationship, nothing more. No different than your auto lease or your mortgage.

 

[chalee94]

No matter what anybody says about the rules of membership in DVC there was an implied value to the points you owned...

the thing is that you should never sign a contract because something is "implied." focus on what is actually stated.

Also, how is tanking the resale market in the best interest of DVC owners?

is that the intention or a side effect? the intention seems to be to benefit direct sales, which gives owners the option of trading to aulani and potential future resorts. the side effect is that owners take more of a beating when they go to sell.

It's just like that points readjustment they did when BLT opened that left many new BLT owners a few points short from what they had figured they needed for a stay. And then on top of that they implemented the minimum point buy.

actually, i'm pretty sure they backed off the minimum point buy-in. BLT owners can still add-on 25 pts.

but i don't think most posters are saying DVC is "right" to act as they did, they are simply pointing out that people need to put on their big-boy pants when dealing with disney corp. and not let pixie dust drive five figure real estate purchases.

this decision is likely to hurt resale value for owners. it is a change in policy toward being more like a regular timeshare company. but the appropriate response is to determine how it impacts you (should you sell before resale values are damaged further?) - and how it impacts your willingness to recommend DVC to others.

i would love to see more owners discouraging current buyers from going in blind. let them know that strong resale values are probably a thing of the past for DVC - that DVC management will be working against them if they need to sell. point out that trading out for cruises and hotels are perks that can be taken away. hopefully fewer buyers will come out saying things like "well, my ability to always bank and borrow was implied in the contract."

 

[cseca]

... A DVC contract is a business relationship, nothing more. No different than your auto lease or your mortgage.

Completely agree!
But when you purchase your car or house don't you look at the possible resale values?
See the area where you purchase the house? And see if the house/car you purchase will eventually be resellable at a reasonable price?

Nobody promises that your car/house could be resold at $x. But you have an idea of how much it might go for if you were to need to resell it.

If I had purchased the other timeshares at $10k without doing my research on resales to see if they're selling similar contracts for $1, that's my mistake.
But when we purchased a timeshare for $10k after doing much research and understanding the history and then the company decides to devalue your contracts somehow, it is understandable for people to get upset.

Yeah, of course they have the right to do it. But it doesn't mean that it's "good".

Like we all say previously, they can change the rules to the basics of the basics... "Everyone gets to stay in their home resort, and that's it. Booking window stays 11mo. But no other exchanges, even within DVC resorts."
You think everyone should be happy about that as well?

As of now we don't really know if this change is even going to make any dent in resale. It's all assumptions... I hope it wont, but we won't know until after March 20th.

 

[bicker]

DVC is allowed to do whatever he heck they want, that is true, but it is also true that their decision effects the end value of contracts for many many members that end up selling. So, why should they be punished?

It's not punishment. It's a business decision that results in loss of resale value, fully and completely in compliance with the terms and conditions of the original sale.

My property have a right-of-way running through it. The master deed has a provision saying that that right-of-way is durable, even if it remains unused for years. Ten, twenty or even thirty years from now they can start using that right-of-way and, depending on what they use it for, my home's resale value could plummet as a result. It is not wrong for them to start using the right-of-way, even though my home's resale value would plummet.

Sure, DVC can do it, it just doesn't make one feel good.

I think this is the crux of the situation: People don't "feel good" about this change, and so they're assuming that therefore someone must have done something wrong. That's just simply not the case.

 

[crisi]

Completely agree!
But when you purchase your car or house don't you look at the possible resale values?
See the area where you purchase the house? And see if the house/car you purchase will eventually be resellable at a reasonable price?

Nobody promises that your car/house could be resold at $x. But you have an idea of how much it might go for if you were to need to resell it.

If I had purchased the other timeshares at $10k without doing my research on resales to see if they're selling similar contracts for $1, that's my mistake.
But when we purchased a timeshare for $10k after doing much research and understanding the history and then the company decides to devalue your contracts somehow, it is understandable for people to get upset.

Yeah, of course they have the right to do it. But it doesn't mean that it's "good".

Like we all say previously, they can change the rules to the basics of the basics... "Everyone gets to stay in their home resort, and that's it. Booking window stays 11mo. But no other exchanges, even within DVC resorts."
You think everyone should be happy about that as well?

As of now we don't really know if this change is even going to make any dent in resale. It's all assumptions... I hope it wont, but we won't know until after March 20th.

But despite that your car "might be worth X based on historical resale values" if the manufacturer has quality issues and your car is part of that, your resale value could be a lot lower than anticipated.

A lot of people have been caught by "real estate doesn't ALWAYS appreciate in the short term" and are underwater on their homes.

It IS understandable to get upset in any of these situations. We are human beings. Money is important to us. It isn't reasonable to threaten legal action based on your assumptions about resale value - and I'm not sure how reasonable it is to blame Disney for our own assumptions regarding resale value.

 

[nytimez]

Completely agree!
But when you purchase your car or house don't you look at the possible resale values?
See the area where you purchase the house? And see if the house/car you purchase will eventually be resellable at a reasonable price?

Nobody promises that your car/house could be resold at $x. But you have an idea of how much it might go for if you were to need to resell it.

Unless you have a crystal ball worthy of Madame Leota, you have no idea what your home will be worth in a few years. None.

You should purchase your home because you can afford it and want to live there -- and HOPE that if and when you need to sell it, you get value in return. But if you buy a home as an investment vehicle... well, just look around.

Even cars. It's a fool's game to buy one based on what you think you might be able to resell it for in a few years. Not as dicey as predicting home prices, but there are still so many variables in there that you can't get ticked off if you go to sell it in five years and learn it's actually worth $3,000 less than what you thought it would be worth when you bought it.

 

[rcchello]

1) A lot of us assumed that the resale value was going to $0 over time based on the general Timeshare market. We calculated if DVC was worth it based on that assumption. Especially us who expected to hold it until it expired.

2) It was nice that the resale value stayed up and we thought that was a nice extra benefit.

3) The resale price of DVC started dropping significantly before Disney made this decision. It was caused by the economic downturn and had nothing to do with Disney.

4) People expect this decision by Disney to further erode the price. So far that is just speculation. Also with the current trend, I wonder how much of the decline will actually be related to Disney's announcement or the built in downward pressure of the whole timeshare market.

+++ I am happy with DVC and have gotten my value out of it and continue to get value out of it. +++

Personnally I hope they start a new DVC subsection called kvetching and move all these discussions there. (I think I will have a little whine with that)

 

[LIFERBABE]

But despite that your car "might be worth X based on historical resale values" if the manufacturer has quality issues and your car is part of that, your resale value could be a lot lower than anticipated.

A lot of people have been caught by "real estate doesn't ALWAYS appreciate in the short term" and are underwater on their homes.

It IS understandable to get upset in any of these situations. We are human beings. Money is important to us. It isn't reasonable to threaten legal action based on your assumptions about resale value - and I'm not sure how reasonable it is to blame Disney for our own assumptions regarding resale value.

Agree. We own a Toyota, and they have always held their value well. With all the quality issues in recent years, not so much anymore. We won't get what we expected to get because it's a Toyota although it was not part of any recalls.
We did get a great vehicle that drove trouble free for 9 years and is still a great vehicle with plenty of use left.
Despite lower resale value, we got what we paid for.

 

[epd0407]

It IS understandable to get upset in any of these situations. We are human beings. Money is important to us. It isn't reasonable to threaten legal action based on your assumptions about resale value - and I'm not sure how reasonable it is to blame Disney for our own assumptions regarding resale value.

Threaten legal action on Deceptive business practice in that the sales person tells you you get one thing then a year down the road that changes (im speaking more along the theory that they will eventually make it only points use in home resort). If your saying this is legal and legit to do, explain why you have so many fine print disclaimers throughout life. If they wanted to be legit the sales person could say "a perk you get" or preface everything by saying this COULD be taken away. They say nothing like that.

I have no complaint as I am not a member yet, what I can say is that I have NEVER seen a copy of the contract I am signing with Disney as they dont provide it until later in the process I guess. I did however base my decision along with many others in that I could use my points at ANY resort. If they take that which you are calling perk away. There's going to be hell to pay on my end. I will also say, ALL of my friends and I have several who have points bought on the fact they can stay in ANY resort. Not one of them believe they are perks and all have said the same thing as I, that they were told this is how it works. There is plenty of room for a Class Action on this should they try something like that.

Even still, to just roll over without making a stink on a change like the one they are making is just plain disturbing.

 

[chalee94]

I have no complaint as I am not a member yet, what I can say is that I have NEVER seen a copy of the contract I am signing with Disney as they dont provide it until later in the process I guess. I did however base my decision along with many others in that I could use my points at ANY resort. If they take that which you are calling perk away. There's going to be hell to pay on my end. I will also say, ALL of my friends and I have several who have points bought on the fact they can stay in ANY resort. Not one of them believe they are perks and all have said the same thing as I, that they were told this is how it works. There is plenty of room for a Class Action on this should they try something like that.

when you get a copy of the contract, you might notice that it says that it overrules any verbal assurances that may have been given.

a class action would be a waste of money.

you can make a stink if you like - just be aware that it won't make a difference...unless DVC's direct sales are slowed due to negative word of mouth.