The Liberal Thread #2 - No Debate Please

[Reflection]

Stepford wives are only allowed to speak one sentence at a time.

This is priceless. Do I have permission to quote you?

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

Yanno, I've always wondered about these people who are "always proud to be an American". When I saw those photos from Abu Ghraib, I was ashamed. When I hear government officials talk about torture and how it's needed, I'm ashamed.

I'm ashamed that my America has sunk so low. I'm ashamed that my America spit on the principles that this country was founded on.

People who are "always proud", no matter what slime and digust is done in their name, allow me to further understand how an educated and sophisticated people like the Germans could follow a madman over the cliff.

So these people can stick their "I'm always proud" where the sun doesn't shine. It'll keep their head company.

I agree. I think she said something that many American truly believe and it's not like it's never been said by many of us on this very thread. You've got to consider that because Michelle Obama is still so young, the only Presidents that she's experienced in her adult life have been a Reagan, 2 Bush's and a Clinton. Given that, I can kinda see her point...

Of course, she'll have to choose her words alot more carefully from here on in unfortunately. As silly as it may be, the media jumps on these little sound bites and runs with them. I can see O'Reilly talking about it as we speak, "Not proud of America?!?! For shame!!!!"

 

[wvrevy]

.....he votes issues not party (another thing, unfortunately for him, the right-wing sees).

I also think he has much more integrity than the average US Senator.

It should be a good election.

Umm...you mean like on the torture ISSUE that he voted against last week? Yeah...lots and lots of integrity there.



On a completely different note...I'm issuing an advisory to any Obama supporter: Whatever you do, do NOT got to the "Hillary Supporters" thread and try extending an olive branch for the sake of party unity. I just tried it, and rather than taking the branch, they tried to take my whole arm off. The sad part is...I was being sincere in my condolences. In an ordinary year (say, 2004), I'd have been a vocal supporter of Hillary's. It just so happens that this year, I got possibly the best presidential candidate of my lifetime.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

Umm...you mean like on the torture ISSUE that he voted against last week? Yeah...lots and lots of integrity there.



On a completely different note...I'm issuing an advisory to any Obama supporter: Whatever you do, do NOT got to the "Hillary Supporters" thread and try extending an olive branch for the sake of party unity. I just tried it, and rather than taking the branch, they tried to take my whole arm off. The sad part is...I was being sincere in my condolences. In an ordinary year (say, 2004), I'd have been a vocal supporter of Hillary's. It just so happens that this year, I got possibly the best presidential candidate of my lifetime.

I have noticed, wvrevy, that somehow, you have become the Obama pointman for all DISboards Clinton supporters to loathe. Thanks for taking one for the team!

 

[Fitswimmer]

Umm...you mean like on the torture ISSUE that he voted against last week? Yeah...lots and lots of integrity there.



On a completely different note...I'm issuing an advisory to any Obama supporter: Whatever you do, do NOT got to the "Hillary Supporters" thread and try extending an olive branch for the sake of party unity. I just tried it, and rather than taking the branch, they tried to take my whole arm off. The sad part is...I was being sincere in my condolences. In an ordinary year (say, 2004), I'd have been a vocal supporter of Hillary's. It just so happens that this year, I got possibly the best presidential candidate of my lifetime.

I stay away from there now. It became a Bash Obama thread instead of a Hillary support thread so I was no longer interested.

 

[Honu]

I stay away from there now. It became a Bash Obama thread instead of a Hillary support thread so I was no longer interested.

I have no problem if they want to bash Obama on points they don't like about him, what's with bashing Obama supporters though? People aren't entitled to their opinion and to be enthusiastic about their candidate?

 

[Laura]

I have no problem if they want to bash Obama on points they don't like about him, what's with bashing Obama supporters though? People aren't entitled to their opinion and to be enthusiastic about their candidate?

Yeah, some of the comments about us being "worshippers", mental lightweights, etc. was a little much. But I posted there today trying to be nice, since they're undoubtedly feeling more down of late. I didn't get much of a response.

 

[eclectics]

I can see O'Reilly talking about it as we speak, "Not proud of America?!?! For shame!!!!"

It's already started with the folks that drape themselves with the flag and put down all others who dare not think this country makes the right decisions 100% of the time. Those that don't wear their patriotism on their sleeve at all times apparently are second class citizens and don't deserve to live here.

 

[wvrevy]

Yeah, some of the comments about us being "worshippers", mental lightweights, etc. was a little much. But I posted there today trying to be nice, since they're undoubtedly feeling more down of late. I didn't get much of a response.

Yeah, you did! So how come I get called a troll (by some guy with a grand total of 9 posts, I might add ) and you don't!

 

[LoraJ]

I have no problem if they want to bash Obama on points they don't like about him, what's with bashing Obama supporters though? People aren't entitled to their opinion and to be enthusiastic about their candidate?

It's very divisive. We need to come togetehr at some point don't we? Being bashed by other dems does nto make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Some of the stuff said in that thread last night really got to me. Had to stop reading it.

 

[Laura]

Yeah, you did! So how come I get called a troll (by some guy with a grand total of 9 posts, I might add ) and you don't!

Because they're not admitting that Hillary might be done.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

I'd just leave 'em be. I'd probably feel the same way if I were in their shoes. They'll come around in a little bit, just give them time to heal.

A good friend of our worked in a paid position on John Kerry's campaign staff in 2004 and went into a severe depression when he lost. She was actually hospitalized for a short time until she came out of it. These campaigns can be taken very personally, even if you don't have a financial interest in the candidate's success or failure.

I'm laying off until I get the word that it's cool to talk about it from the Clinton supporters themselves. For myself personally, it's enough that it looks like our guy won.

 

[Laura]

Oh heck, I almost cried when Kerry gave his concession speech. I really liked him, but I knew what we had in store for the next four years. That made it worse!

 

[wvrevy]

I'd just leave 'em be. I'd probably feel the same way if I were in their shoes. They'll come around in a little bit, just give them time to heal.

A good friend of our worked in a paid position on John Kerry's campaign staff in 2004 and went into a severe depression when he lost. She was actually hospitalized for a short time until she came out of it. These campaigns can be taken very personally, even if you don't have a financial interest in the candidate's success or failure.

I'm laying off until I get the word that it's cool to talk about it from the Clinton supporters themselves. For myself personally, it's enough that it looks like our guy won.

Ok, but did you read my post? It was basically an apology and a congrats to them for running such a strong campaign. I was basically just saying that, in the end, we're all on the same side and all want to get a Democrat back in the white house.

I think Laura's right...they just don't want to face the reality that she's lost. I'm REALLY hoping that her campaign has a better grasp of that, or tomorrow night's debate really could be ugly. At this point, Hillary is not going to win. All she can do is ensure Barack loses in November.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

Ok, but did you read my post? It was basically an apology and a congrats to them for running such a strong campaign. I was basically just saying that, in the end, we're all on the same side and all want to get a Democrat back in the white house.

I think Laura's right...they just don't want to face the reality that she's lost. I'm REALLY hoping that her campaign has a better grasp of that, or tomorrow night's debate really could be ugly. At this point, Hillary is not going to win. All she can do is ensure Barack loses in November.

Yeah, I read you post and I understand what you're trying to do. It's just that it's being perceived as gloating, which I am quite sure is not your intention at all. Problem is, too, that when you get a negative response to your well-intentioned post, a debate rises as to whether or not what you are doing is gloating, and everyone misses the original purpose of your apology/congratulations. You are free to do whatever you like and I respect what you're trying to do. I just think that for a few days or so, it's going to fall on deaf ears with the Clinton supporters.

As far as Hillary getting a grip on the fact that she has little to no chance of winning, I agree with you 100%. However, I think that the Obama movement is firmly in set place and her ability to torpedo the Dems chances in November is minimal at very best.

 

[lilyv]

Hillary and Bill probably need someone who cares about them, her future, and his legacy to have a frank talk with them. Whether that will happen or not, remains to be seen. I do understand that it's hard for both Hillary and her supporters to really "get" where she is, today. She has a bright future after this election as long as she choose not to go with a scorched earth policy.

From Zogby, today:
" Illinois Sen. Barack Obama has opened up a gaping 14-point lead over Democratic rival Hillary Clinton in a national presidential preference telephone survey conducted by Zogby International for Reuters news service.

And while Obama leads Republican John McCain in a national general election match-up, McCain, the likely GOP presidential nominee from Arizona, would handily defeat Clinton in a head-to-head contest, the poll shows.


http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/Zogby:_Obama_Pulls_Away_i/2008/02/20/74084.html

 

[disneyfan67]

.

 

[wvrevy]

Yeah, I read you post and I understand what you're trying to do. It's just that it's being perceived as gloating, which I am quite sure is not your intention at all. Problem is, too, that when you get a negative response to your well-intentioned post, a debate rises as to whether or not what you are doing is gloating, and everyone misses the original purpose of your apology/congratulations. You are free to do whatever you like and I respect what you're trying to do. I just think that for a few days or so, it's going to fall on deaf ears with the Clinton supporters.

As far as Hillary getting a grip on the fact that she has little to no chance of winning, I agree with you 100%. However, I think that the Obama movement is firmly in set place and her ability to torpedo the Dems chances in November is minimal at very best.

1 - Yeah, I guess it's just too soon. I just don't see why any Democrat would be all that torn up about having either of these two represent our party against John McCain.

2 - Yeah, I think she could. If she comes at him swinging tomorrow night, and continues with the negative campaigning, she'll be doing John McCain's work for him. He campaign is right...his negatives do only have room to go up. But if they're going to do so, and you're going to lose anyway, at least make McCain do it with his measly "war chest" instead of tearing down a fellow democrat.

 

[robinb]

On a completely different note...I'm issuing an advisory to any Obama supporter: Whatever you do, do NOT got to the "Hillary Supporters" thread and try extending an olive branch for the sake of party unity. I just tried it, and rather than taking the branch, they tried to take my whole arm off.

I read your comment over there and as a supporter of both candidates, I did not see them as extending an olive branch. It was more like taking that olive branch and knocking them upside the head with it. You told them they might as well pack it up because Hillary is toast. You went on to give the the "your gal played a really great game!" loser speech. You don't see that as gloating? Really? And then you turned your post into an Obama ad! You really don't think that was rude? Or rubbing their noses in last night's loss?

And what about reconciliation? Yes, our party will need reconciliation but not on your timetable. Last I checked, Hillary is still campaigning and still in the race. As much as you (and me to a certain extent) want it to be over it's not. Let me be clear on this: it ain't over until Hillary says it's over. Not you. Not Obama. Not the pundits and pollsters. Hillary. When she says it's over then I am sure that most of her supporters will come back into the fold. Until then, talk about "reconciliation" and "good game" is a rude, gloating slap in the face for supporters.

 

[wvrevy]

I read your comment over there and as a supporter of both candidates, I did not see them as extending an olive branch. It was more like taking that olive branch and knocking them upside the head with it. You told them they might as well pack it up because Hillary is toast. You went on to give the the "your gal played a really great game!" loser speech. You don't see that as gloating? Really? And then you turned your post into an Obama ad! You really don't think that was rude? Or rubbing their noses in last night's loss?

No, my comment was absolutely NOT "Hillary is toast". Yes, I said that it is going to be hard for her to come back. Guess what? It is. She's so far behind at this point that only a major catastrophe befalling the Obama campaign could stop him from winning the nomination at this point. I'm sorry if reality - put as gently as possible - is hard for some people to bear, but that's not my problem.

Yeah, I guess you could call my comments an "Obama ad". Gee...as fellow Democrats, I can't imagine why I'd want them to continue to get involved and support the Democratic candidate, Robin. No, I don't see my comments as rude. I see them as "I'm sorry your candidate lost, but let's keep our eyes on the ultimate prize...putting a Democrat in the white house." You may have read something into the comments that weren't there, but again, that's not MY problem.

And what about reconciliation? Yes, our party will need reconciliation but not on your timetable. Last I checked, Hillary is still campaigning and still in the race. As much as you (and me to a certain extent) want it to be over it's not. Let me be clear on this: it ain't over until Hillary says it's over. Not you. Not Obama. Not the pundits and pollsters. Hillary. When she says it's over then I am sure that most of her supporters will come back into the fold. Until then, talk about "reconciliation" and "good game" is a rude, gloating slap in the face for supporters.

Sorry, but yes, it's over. She can continue to run and turn herself into Mike Huckabee all she wants, but it doesn't matter. The reality is that she would have to win several states by bigger margins than she even won New York in order to just get close in the number of delegates. That simply is not realistic.

Maybe my comments are a little early, considering that it apparently hasn't sunken in yet with everyone that the race unofficially ended last night. But if you think my comments were anything NEAR being "Hillary is toast", I'd suggest you search this board for the political threads around the 2004 election. I can only assume you've forgotten what gloating looks like, 'cause what I posted ain't it.