The Liberal Thread #2 - No Debate Please

[MerryPoppins]

I posted this on the Hillary thread earlier. Thought I'd share my feelings with those of you that don't read that thread.

"The thing is that even though I'll admit that things aren't looking good, I'm not willing to call it yet. Hillary is still fighting, so I'm standing behind her for now.

Obama supporters, put yourself in our shoes. If things were not going well for you and we did the same....how would you feel? I think you'd be quick to tell us it was not over and you'd say we had some nerve, etc.

To come here (on the heels of criticism of us) to make friends...well to put it bluntly it seems like your rubbing our noses in it. It also feels like you're recruiting us to jump ship and join your team. I'm not there yet. Maybe the feeling was sincere, but the timing was definitely off. Especially if you take into account your past posts.

Don't worry. Most of us will back your man in the end if he gets the nod. Just don't shove it down our throats when we're not done."

Look, we're not tearing anyone limb from limb on that thread, and we want a unified Democratic party as much as anybody else. Strong feelings have gone along with this primary...especially among some of us here on the DIS. Some things have been said that were hurtful. It's not easy to just forget when you've been accused of not doing your homework or needing to be spoonfed. (And yes, I'm smart enough to know that the hurtful things have gone both ways but they probably sting less if you win.) Please don't come rub our noses in it. That's really not productive.

 

[punkin]

Maybe my comments are a little early, considering that it apparently hasn't sunken in yet with everyone that the race unofficially ended last night. But if you think my comments were anything NEAR being "Hillary is toast", I'd suggest you search this board for the political threads around the 2004 election. I can only assume you've forgotten what gloating looks like, 'cause what I posted ain't it.

Tin ear much?

 

[Fitswimmer]

I read your comment over there and as a supporter of both candidates, I did not see them as extending an olive branch. It was more like taking that olive branch and knocking them upside the head with it. You told them they might as well pack it up because Hillary is toast. You went on to give the the "your gal played a really great game!" loser speech. You don't see that as gloating? Really? And then you turned your post into an Obama ad! You really don't think that was rude? Or rubbing their noses in last night's loss?

And what about reconciliation? Yes, our party will need reconciliation but not on your timetable. Last I checked, Hillary is still campaigning and still in the race. As much as you (and me to a certain extent) want it to be over it's not. Let me be clear on this: it ain't over until Hillary says it's over. Not you. Not Obama. Not the pundits and pollsters. Hillary. When she says it's over then I am sure that most of her supporters will come back into the fold. Until then, talk about "reconciliation" and "good game" is a rude, gloating slap in the face for supporters.

I had to leave that thread a while ago because even as a supporter of both candidates, I was getting uncomfortable with the way Obama and his followers were being portrayed.

Do I think Hillary is done? Sadly, and I do mean sadly-I think she is going to lose. I may not be a math geek, but the numbers don't look good for her.

I really wish that we didn't have two such great candidates in one year. I wish we could have had either of them in 2004.

 

[wvrevy]

I posted this on the Hillary thread earlier. Thought I'd share my feelings with those of you that don't read that thread.

"The thing is that even though I'll admit that things aren't looking good, I'm not willing to call it yet. Hillary is still fighting, so I'm standing behind her for now.

Obama supporters, put yourself in our shoes. If things were not going well for you and we did the same....how would you feel? I think you'd be quick to tell us it was not over and you'd say we had some nerve, etc.

To come here (on the heels of criticism of us) to make friends...well to put it bluntly it seems like your rubbing our noses in it. It also feels like you're recruiting us to jump ship and join your team. I'm not there yet. Maybe the feeling was sincere, but the timing was definitely off. Especially if you take into account your past posts.

Don't worry. Most of us will back your man in the end if he gets the nod. Just don't shove it down our throats when we're not done."

Look, we're not tearing anyone limb from limb on that thread, and we want a unified Democratic party as much as anybody else. Strong feelings have gone along with this primary...especially among some of us here on the DIS. Some things have been said that were hurtful. It's not easy to just forget when you've been accused of not doing your homework or needing to be spoonfed. (And yes, I'm smart enough to know that the hurtful things have gone both ways but they probably sting less if you win.) Please don't come rub our noses in it. That's really not productive.

As I said above to Robin, that was not my intention. But look, the reality is - whether her campaign continues or not - the nominating process is pretty much over. Due to the margin in Wisconsin, and with the states that he is pretty much assured of winning at this point along with the ones she has all but wrapped up, she would have to win about 7 or 8 contested states - including Ohio, Texas, and Pennsylvania - by a 65-35 margin. She has not done that just about ANYWHERE, including her home state of New York. If my candidate were that far behind...no, I do not think I would be expecting a miracle, but I can only speak for myself in that.

As for my comments before in that thread...yes, they were in response to repeated attacks that Obama was "All talk and no substance." I got tired of hearing it, so yes, I told people to go out and do their homework. The reason I did so is that the information is out there, and yet people kept complaining that it wasn't. Once someone finally said something about him not talking about the details of his plans, I addressed that as a separate issue, and his campaign responded to it by upping the meat in his speeches. Problem solved? Of course not...people just kept attacking on the same grounds.

As for the timing...I simply wanted to apologize for the dissension, and as I said in the post, a tough primary campaign can have the negative side effect of making enemies of people that should be on the same side. Yes, I defended Barack from some of the attacks on that thread, and yes I did so very strongly. I'm sorry, but after the last two elections and getting beat around by the Republicans, I am not particularly in the mood to beat around the bush (no pun intended) when it comes to defeating those kinds of attacks. Our party - our country - needs a change, and it needs it in a BIG way. I think both sides of the primary fight need to come together - and yes, sooner than later - to start gearing up to defeat the Republicans in November.

 

[chris1gill]

I really wish that we didn't have two such great candidates in one year. I wish we could have had either of them in 2004.

As we all know, it was not Barack's time in 2004... so what he is doing now, he could never have done then. That would have been the time for Clinton, I don't know why she didn't run....

 

[wvrevy]

Tin ear much?

 

[wvrevy]

As we all know, it was not Barack's time in 2004... so what he is doing now, he could never have done then. That would have been the time for Clinton, I don't know why she didn't run....

Exactly. She'd have had a ton of rabid support from the left, and the young people would have been on her side a whole lot more than they were for Kerry. I honestly think she would have won.

 

[Fitswimmer]

As we all know, it was not Barack's time in 2004... so what he is doing now, he could never have done then. That would have been the time for Clinton, I don't know why she didn't run....

I'm thinking that maybe she's wondering that too now.

 

[DisneyDad1960]

First of all post counts mean nothing.
I never once slammed Senator Obama, and I only became angry,when I perceived your intentions on the Hillary thread to be gloating.
(This would be easy to check, because I only have 9 posts LOL.)

I want to change the subject for a minute and ask you guys if any of you have come across this.
I work with a man who is a "I'd vote for Charles Manson if he was on the ballot" Republican.
He went to vote in the New Jersey Primary and since he had never voted in the primary before, he was asked to declare a party. He declared himself a Democrat and the voted for Senator Obama.
When he told me this, I asked him if he disliked his candidates that much.
He said no - the reason being that Senator Obama would be easier to defeat in November than Senator Clinton because he is the ultimate Liberal (his words)
I know poll numbers show the opposite, but is this something the Democrats have to worry about in November?
I guess what I want to know are the number of Independent voters going to change their minds in the general election?

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

First of all post counts mean nothing.
I never once slammed Senator Obama, and I only became angry,when I perceived your intentions on the Hillary thread to be gloating.
(This would be easy to check, because I only have 9 posts LOL.)

I want to change the subject for a minute and ask you guys if any of you have come across this.
I work with a man who is a "I'd vote for Charles Manson if he was on the ballot" Republican.
He went to vote in the New Jersey Primary and since he had never voted in the primary before, he was asked to declare a party. He declared himself a Democrat and the voted for Senator Obama.
When he told me this, I asked him if he disliked his candidates that much.
He said no - the reason being that Senator Obama would be easier to defeat in November than Senator Clinton because he is the ultimate Liberal (his words)
I know poll numbers show the opposite, but is this something the Democrats have to worry about in November?
I guess what I want to know are the number of Independent voters going to change their minds in the general election?

Meh. I saw a similar "Freeper call to action" on Free republic just a couple days ago, but they were challenging people to vote for Hillary for the same reason. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1971534/posts In the poster's own words, "Barack Obama is going to win the Democratic nomination unless there is a surge for Hillary Clinton. John McCain can destroy Hillary, but he is in serious trouble against Obama."

 

[MerryPoppins]

Yeah. I've heard of that. I even know several closet Republicans that are registered as Democrats, just so they can vote for the Democratic candidate of their choice. They vote for the person that they think their "true" party could beat. Pretty sick if you ask me. I'd never vote for someone unless I thought they'd do a great job.

 

[crazyforgoofy]

Today I have my Rodney King outfit on: Can't we all just get along?

Nope, we each old our beliefs dear and feel the need to defend them. But please consider how important it will be to support the candidate who earns the nomination. I mean earn because this is one of the most hard fought primaries I've seen in my fairly long life.

Be as kind to the 'other' team as you can as long as the other team is supporting a Democrat.

Thanks for listening. Now back to your regularly scheduled fuss and fight.

M.A.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

Yeah. I've heard of that. I even know several closet Republicans that are registered as Democrats, just so they can vote for the Democratic candidate of their choice. They vote for the person that they think their "true" party could beat. Pretty sick if you ask me. I'd never vote for someone unless I thought they'd do a great job.

Really? You know of several who do this? I've heard about these people online plenty of times, but have never met one IRL. I'm thinking you need some new friends!!!

 

[wvrevy]

First of all post counts mean nothing.
I never once slammed Senator Obama, and I only became angry,when I perceived your intentions on the Hillary thread to be gloating.
(This would be easy to check, because I only have 9 posts LOL.)

I want to change the subject for a minute and ask you guys if any of you have come across this.
I work with a man who is a "I'd vote for Charles Manson if he was on the ballot" Republican.
He went to vote in the New Jersey Primary and since he had never voted in the primary before, he was asked to declare a party. He declared himself a Democrat and the voted for Senator Obama.
When he told me this, I asked him if he disliked his candidates that much.
He said no - the reason being that Senator Obama would be easier to defeat in November than Senator Clinton because he is the ultimate Liberal (his words)
I know poll numbers show the opposite, but is this something the Democrats have to worry about in November?
I guess what I want to know are the number of Independent voters going to change their minds in the general election?

1 - I was just commenting on being called a "troll" by someone with a low post count...which is historically an easy way to identify trolls.

2 - Your coworker is seriously misinformed. The Republicans were praying for Hillary to win so that their base might be energized enough to swallow their dislike and come out to support McCain. The extreme righties absolutely can't stand her - never have been sure why that is the case, but it is - and would have come out just for the chance to vote against her. With Obama, they don't have that extreme dislike, and he's already shown an ability to get Independent votes, which are the only thing that could've gotten McCain elected.

 

[robinb]

No, I don't see my comments as rude. I see them as "I'm sorry your candidate lost, but let's keep our eyes on the ultimate prize...putting a Democrat in the white house." You may have read something into the comments that weren't there, but again, that's not MY problem.

That is the problem. You don't see how your comments were rude and they were. Many of us have been trying to tell you that and you don't appear to hear us. Maybe that's what the tin ear comment is about. Instead you continue to go on and on about how Hillary is done and how you are not nearly as bad as some posters in the 2004 election. As you well know, I was around on the DIS then and I find the comment that I do more homework by re-reading those post election threads incredibly condescending.

You are not going to browbeat people into leaving Hillary until they are ready to. So stop trying. You're just coming off like a troll and pissing people off. They will come when they are ready. Not when you think they should be ready.

 

[wvrevy]

That is the problem. You don't see how your comments were rude and they were. Many of us have been trying to tell you that and you don't appear to hear us. Maybe that's what the tin ear comment is about. Instead you continue to go on and on about how Hillary is done and how you are not nearly as bad as some posters in the 2004 election. As you well know, I was around on the DIS then and I find the comment that I do more homework by re-reading those post election threads incredibly condescending.

You are not going to browbeat people into leaving Hillary until they are ready to. So stop trying. You're just coming off like a troll and pissing people off. They will come when they are ready. Not when you think they should be ready.

The problem is that you see my comment as browbeating, when it was simply what it said it was. And I'm sorry, but "gloating" - which is what you accused me of - would be posting laughing smilies and bragging about the 15+ point win in Wisconsin. That is why I pointed at the 2004 election because that is what the Repubs were doing back then, and I know you remember that.

I already said that I was done on that thread, and so I am. But if you think I'm going to stop talking up my candidate - running an "ad" for him, if you will - then you're sadly mistaken.

 

["Got Disney"]

Umm...you mean like on the torture ISSUE that he voted against last week? Yeah...lots and lots of integrity there.



On a completely different note...I'm issuing an advisory to any Obama supporter: Whatever you do, do NOT got to the "Hillary Supporters" thread and try extending an olive branch for the sake of party unity. I just tried it, and rather than taking the branch, they tried to take my whole arm off. The sad part is...I was being sincere in my condolences. In an ordinary year (say, 2004), I'd have been a vocal supporter of Hillary's. It just so happens that this year, I got possibly the best presidential candidate of my lifetime.

First of all this thread has turned into a love fest for Obama and a Hillary bashing thread...so if you need to pointing fingers go no farther than your own back door.

The Obama threads have turned into a Hillary bashing also.

Wvrey you did not come into the other thread to extend an olive leaf you came to gloat and you know it. You have been in that thread every day with insults to all of us. That is why we did not say thanks to you.

You can trash Hillary if you want but you have come in there and calling people for the most part saying if we vote for Hillary we have no brains or are stupid (not in those words because you sis want want points or to get banned). Than after making remarks like that you say...O yea but I will vote for her ...What

You are all talking about how we are bashing Obama in there but we left because all of you have been doing that to Hillary. So when we come in here we are not doing that anymore out of respect but you Obama supporters do not show the same respect to us and just have constant Hillary trashing..

This thread has changed so much and I don't care who has been coming in here for years....it has turned into a thread with a lot of disrespect for other posters opinions.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I like both candidates so I consider myself fairly neutral and I really got uncomfortable on the Hillary thread. I don't think it was the cracking on Obama so much, but the cracking on his supporters really did me in.

I assume that everyone here chose their candidate by looking at voting records and how closely the candidate's goals and values matched your own. Given that, we should at least have respect enough for each other not to bash each other for following the "wrong" person.

 

["Got Disney"]

Meh. I saw a similar "Freeper call to action" on Free republic just a couple days ago, but they were challenging people to vote for Hillary for the same reason. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1971534/posts In the poster's own words, "Barack Obama is going to win the Democratic nomination unless there is a surge for Hillary Clinton. John McCain can destroy Hillary, but he is in serious trouble against Obama."

Can you explain this thought...why can McCain DESTROY Hillary but McCain is in SERIOUS trouble against Obama....are you referring to vote wise?

I believe that Dems will vote for either candidates and for the Obama ones that do not come out and vote Dem they are not true Dem....and are telling me they only care about Obama and not the issues or the party.

We are voting to get a REP out and DEM in and I believe that Obama also wants his voters to vote for Hillary if she were to get the nod...and if he did not back her than what would that say about him

I am not afraid if she gets the nod that she would be beat. Just the numbers that have come out and voted in the Dem primaries shows me that the Dems mean business.

With all that said I will not concede till Hillary does.....

Just as you would not untill Obama did....

 

["Got Disney"]

I like both candidates so I consider myself fairly neutral and I really got uncomfortable on the Hillary thread. I don't think it was the cracking on Obama so much, but the cracking on his supporters really did me in.

I assume that everyone here chose their candidate by looking at voting records and how closely the candidate's goals and values matched your own. Given that, we should at least have respect enough for each other not to bash each other for following the "wrong" person.

You are for both as I am but you are a Obama supporter through and through and have also made your feelings clear about how you fel about both....and much has been neg about Hillary but nothing like WV has....