The Liberal Thread #2 - No Debate Please

[punkin]

See, I respect that neither of you are voting for her because of her imaginary skeletons comments. My problem is, if that line of attack does nothing for her supporters, then why peddle it? It's almost like she saying "C'mon...we're all a bit sleazy, so why not vote for the sleaze you know instead of the potential sleaze you don't." I think that not only does that line of rhetoric sound like it's straight out of the Karl Rove handbook, but it hurts the party and the messenger more than it's intended target. It's one of the reasons why originally, I was firmly in the Clinton camp, but jumped ship around the time of the NC primaries.

It is not a line of attack. It is a rebuttal to what we see (if I may speak for others-if not, I'm sure they'll correct me) as the Obama camp's harping on the fact that in the general, people will come out to vote against Clinton because they hate her so much. Some people seem to think that if Clinton is nominated, McCain will win because of this. I am just saying that by the time the general rolls around, none of us can have any idea what dirt will be slung at Obama and what will stick enough to make people "hate" him.

 

[JARNJ3]

It is not a line of attack. It is a rebuttal to what we see (if I may speak for others-if not, I'm sure they'll correct me) as the Obama camp's harping on the fact that in the general, people will come out to vote against Clinton because they hate her so much. Some people seem to think that if Clinton is nominated, McCain will win because of this. I am just saying that by the time the general rolls around, none of us can have any idea what dirt will be slung at Obama and what will stick enough to make people "hate" him.

Correct. She didn't start her campaign saying that - she had to refute Obama's and his surrgoates' allegations......

Looking back in history - is it safe to say that the only squeaky clean pol was Carter? Nah nevermind - they "got" him on his brother, mother and sister......

 

[chris1gill]

It is not a line of attack. It is a rebuttal to what we see (if I may speak for others-if not, I'm sure they'll correct me) as the Obama camp's harping on the fact that in the general, people will come out to vote against Clinton because they hate her so much. Some people seem to think that if Clinton is nominated, McCain will win because of this. I am just saying that by the time the general rolls around, none of us can have any idea what dirt will be slung at Obama and what will stick enough to make people "hate" him.

What he said is that he will get more independents, some republican's and yes, that not all of his people will vote for Hillary, I think that's a very true statement. You may not like it, but it is true..... I don't think he ever specifically said people "hated" her... the pundit's did, but I don't believe those words came from his mouth.

 

[JARNJ3]

My personal opinion - they (the super dupers) will ultimately go with the "mo" of the last candidate standing. I still wish they would broker a combined ticket....... The VP isn't the worst job any more.........

White men hold superdelegate power balance

By: Josephine Hearn
Feb 15, 2008 06:05 AM EST
John Larson

In an ironic twist to the historic Democratic nominating contest between an African-American and a woman, the balance of power may be held by a more familiar face: the white male.

According to a Politico analysis, close to half of the 700-plus Democratic superdelegates who could end up determining the party nominee are white men.

One Obama superdelegate, a House member, had sharp criticism for the superdelegate racial and gender makeup, a reaction that reflects the sensitivities surrounding the issue.

“It’s still the old guard, the white men. They always want to control the outcome,” the superdelegate said. “But this time, they won’t be able to do it.”

That strong response could portend a messy intraparty fight in the event that superdelegates cast the decisive votes for the nominee.

The exact percentage of white males varies slightly depending on whether the penalized Michigan and Florida delegation superdelegates are counted, but the overall percentage is at least 46 percent. Overall, men of all races represent 64 percent of the party’s superdelegates.

Unlike traditional pledged delegates, superdelegates are unbound by the outcome of any primary vote or caucus. They are allowed to make their own choice for the nomination, and this year, the campaigns of Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton are aggressively courting their support in the event that superdelegate votes are needed to determine which candidate wins the nomination.

Representing about 20 percent of all delegates to the Democratic National Convention, the superdelegate roster is composed of members of Congress, other elected officeholders and party officials.

The percentage of white male superdelegates is disproportionate to the share of white males who make up the overall Democratic electorate. According to a January 2008 national poll by Zogby International, 28 percent of Democratic voters are white men. Women account for 55 percent of Democratic voters.

But superdelegates have never reflected the diversity of the Democratic party as a whole, nor were they designed to. They represent the party insiders, a group that white men still dominate.

Among the superdelegates, including Michigan's and Florida's, there are 28 governors (21 white men), 49 senators (33 white men) and 228 representatives (137 white men). Members of the Democratic National Committee are also superdelegates, and among this group, there is more diversity.

Many superdelegates were not surprised that there were so many white males in their ranks.

“Obviously it’s an imperfect system. It smacks a lot of the old state legislatures electing senators,” said Rep. John B. Larson (D-Conn.), an Obama supporter. “I do think you’ll see some kind of reform after this to make it binding with the majority of votes.”

Rep. Louise McIntosh Slaughter (D-N.Y.), a Clinton backer, noted that delegates were much more diverse than they were in 1972, when she first became a delegate under party rules that specifically required more participation by women.

“I remember how excited we were to stop stuffing envelopes and go to the convention,” she recalled. “I’m not surprised that there are still a lot of men. It’s just staying power. We still have a ways to go.”

Rep. Hilda L. Solis (D-Calif.), also a Clinton supporter, said she was more concerned about the decisions of the superdelegates than their gender and racial identities.

“Women and minorities often have a diminished presence,” she said. “But what really matters to me is who they’re lining up with.”

Among the more than 700 superdelegates named by the Democratic National Committee, Clinton leads Obama by 231 to 140.5 (the eight members of Democrats Abroad receive a half vote.). Among white men, at least 81 were supporting Clinton and at least 63 were backing Obama. Many more remain uncommitted.

Stacie Paxton, a DNC spokeswoman, said that DNC members represent the party’s rich diversity and include African-Americans, Hispanic Americans, Asian Americans, Native Americans and Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender people.

"Superdelegates are a diverse group of people from all parts of the country and all walks of life," said Paxton.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

What he said is that he will get more independents, some republican's and yes, that not all of his people will vote for Hillary, I think that's a very true statement. You may not like it, but it is true..... I don't think he ever specifically said people "hated" her... the pundit's did, but I don't believe those words came from his mouth.

Absolutely. Talk about Hillary's "net negatives" have been hashed and rehashed in polls and by the media/political pundits since she resided in the White House. It's certainly nothing new. By living a more transparent life, as chris1gill pointed out, it limits the lines of attack that the right can take against Obama.

I also want to take a moment to say that although I'm a bit disappointed with Clinton's rhetoric on this point, I'll still happily vote for her should she win the nomination. I don't want this to be looked at as another "bashing Hillary" moment. Seems like Obama supporters can't voice there opinion around here anymore without someone complaining that Hillary's getting beat up. I simply want what's best for the party. If they both stuck only to the issues, and stayed away from all of the extracurricular stuff, I'd be beyond thrilled.

 

["Got Disney"]

What he said is that he will get more independents, some republican's and yes, that not all of his people will vote for Hillary, I think that's a very true statement. You may not like it, but it is true..... I don't think he ever specifically said people "hated" her... the pundit's did, but I don't believe those words came from his mouth.

What he said was that He will get Hillary's votes but she wont get his...

Than he said that he has a much better chance winning against McCain because of that.....

and as long as it keeps being put out there and the Obama camp knows it...it will bring some Hillary voters his way. It is being used as a fear tactic...

It is bad bad Hillary and Perfect Obama....in the eyes of the Obama camp.

She may not get the nod I agree ......and if Obama does than I "Hope" he does a great job...but if he does not it will be said by Obama followers it is because he had so much to fix coming in...if Hillary gets it it will be the Obama camp saying...we told ya so and shake there heads

As they have mentioned on TV ...if Hillary gets it the party will break because the Obama camp will not vote for her because of hurt feelings...

But Hillary's voters will vote Obama....not because he is any better but because he has the likability factor.

 

["Got Disney"]

Absolutely. Talk about Hillary's "net negatives" have been hashed and rehashed in polls and by the media/political pundits since she resided in the White House. It's certainly nothing new. By living a more transparent life, as chris1gill pointed out, it limits the lines of attack that the right can take against Obama.

I also want to take a moment to say that although I'm a bit disappointed with Clinton's rhetoric on this point, I'll still happily vote for her should she win the nomination. I don't want this to be looked at as another "bashing Hillary" moment. Seems like Obama supporters can't voice there opinion around here anymore without someone complaining that Hillary's getting beat up. I simply want what's best for the party. If they both stuck only to the issues, and stayed away from all of the extracurricular stuff, I'd be beyond thrilled.

It's not that we don't want to hear about Obama....we do.....it's just that when a few of you keep coming in and talking how great Obama is and how Hillary is not and you talk like Obama is the holy Grail.

It most of the times seems like an "I Love Obama Thread". We don't come in here bragging constantly about this or that with Hillary and we could in out eyes....we just don't so instead we get on the offensive and than we start back and forth.

that is why I started a Hillary thread so us Hillary supporters could do out Love for Hillary in there and not hurt feelings in here.

But than some of you started coming in there and spilling your love all over. and as we would defend Hillary in there you would get offended.



That is what I see going on in here and others have commented the same. this thread should be left to discussing the issues and not who's candidate is better than the other. At least not at the expense of others. Someone mentioned that we the Hillary followers take what is posted in here to personal but it goes the same for the Obama followers.

We all want the same thing as for keeping out McCain and having A Dem in office. I think all this going back and forth is silly. We all know how we all feel . You will not change our minds and we will not change yours so all this back and forth is a waste of time.

I hope we can come to some kind of agreement....

 

[wvrevy]

Seems like Obama supporters can't voice there opinion around here anymore without someone complaining that Hillary's getting beat up.

Welcome to my world.

Oops....guess that was "negative", huh?

 

[punkin]

Absolutely. Talk about Hillary's "net negatives" have been hashed and rehashed in polls and by the media/political pundits since she resided in the White House. It's certainly nothing new. By living a more transparent life, as chris1gill pointed out, it limits the lines of attack that the right can take against Obama.

I also want to take a moment to say that although I'm a bit disappointed with Clinton's rhetoric on this point, I'll still happily vote for her should she win the nomination. I don't want this to be looked at as another "bashing Hillary" moment. Seems like Obama supporters can't voice there opinion around here anymore without someone complaining that Hillary's getting beat up. I simply want what's best for the party. If they both stuck only to the issues, and stayed away from all of the extracurricular stuff, I'd be beyond thrilled.

Of course you can voice your opinion. It is every bit as valid as anyone else's. I also don't think you in particular are deliberately "bashing" Hillary. I don't believe I have ever bashed Obama either and I have said often that I would vote for him if he gets the nod.

The only people who actually make me are the Obama supporters who claim they will NOT vote for Hillary if she gets picked. Otherwise, I can debate who is better without getting my feelings hurt or hopefully hurting anyone else's.

 

[Mugg Mann]

[QUOTE="Got Disney']this thread should be left to discussing the issues and not who's candidate is better than the other.[/QUOTE]

Because someone needs to say aloud what others are thinking;

Respectfully, speaking on behalf of many regulars and others who have been posting on the DIS and who have sustained this thread for many years as a safe haven here for a great deal longer than you (and myself as well, quite frankly);

No one here has ever determined what the particular "rules" of this thread should be for all, and we thank you in advance for not only respecting but upholding that fine tradition yourself.

The fact that we don't all think alike nor march in lockstep with each other is our strength, not our weakness.

 

["Got Disney"]

Because someone needs to say aloud what others are thinking;

Respectfully, speaking on behalf of many regulars and others who have been posting on the DIS and who have sustained this thread for many years as a safe haven here for a great deal longer than you (and myself as well, quite frankly);

No one here has ever determined what the particular "rules" of this thread should be for all, and we thank you in advance for not only respecting but upholding that fine tradition yourself.

The fact that we don't all think alike nor march in lockstep with each other is our strength, not our weakness.

I agree 100% ......it is just that this is an unusual run for POTUS so it cant help but to get a little strained. I am fine with that as long as if I come in and say Hooray for Hillary that I don't get slammed for it or a sarcastic remark thrown at me for doing it. I want to be able to express my feelings about her and if she gets a win not have a remark like..so what she is not going to win anyway

It was great in here until it seemed that the party was splitting in 2 and than the whole feel of the thread changed.

I would just like for all of us to be able to say "Hooray" and we congratulate each other for our candidates wins....not losses.

 

[Honu]

Because someone needs to say aloud what others are thinking;

Thank you.

 

[Mugg Mann]

Thank you.

You're quite welcome. Glad to be of service.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

Of course you can voice your opinion. It is every bit as valid as anyone else's. I also don't think you in particular are deliberately "bashing" Hillary. I don't believe I have ever bashed Obama either and I have said often that I would vote for him if he gets the nod.

The only people who actually make me are the Obama supporters who claim they will NOT vote for Hillary if she gets picked. Otherwise, I can debate who is better without getting my feelings hurt or hopefully hurting anyone else's.

Believe me, I wonder the same thing about those people.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Believe me, I wonder the same thing about those people.

I wonder about supporters of both Hillary and Obama who claim that they will not vote or will vote McCain if their candidate is not chosen. Aren't they both better than McCain-or Bush revisited??

And you're right, Mugg-I have no life and I "talk" too much.....

 

[Laura]

Thank you, Mugg Man, for speaking up.

Aren't they both better than McCain-or Bush revisited??

Better by far. You can't go wrong with Obama or Clinton, IMO.

I completed my absentee ballot this evening. Obama got my vote in the Ohio primary. He may need it--Hillary's still quite a bit ahead in the polls here. But Barack has closed similar gaps in other states, so we'll wait and see. Ohio voters may resist the momentum, or they may not.

I VOTED TODAY!

 

[Mugg Mann]

I wonder about supporters of both Hillary and Obama who claim that they will not vote or will vote McCain if their candidate is not chosen. Aren't they both better than McCain-or Bush revisited??

And you're right, Mugg-I have no life and I "talk" too much.....

Hmmm....did someone have an extended Valentine's present?

A bunch of us have been wondering when you'd show up.....

 

[Fitswimmer]

Hmmm....did someone have an extended Valentine's present?

A bunch of us have been wondering when you'd show up.....

Had to work today and tonight-this is the first chance I've had to touch the computer.

I'll be visiting other areas tomorrow while the piano is being tuned.....

 

[eclectics]

Had to work today and tonight-this is the first chance I've had to touch the computer.

I'll be visiting other areas tomorrow while the piano is being tuned.....

It's nice to get out and go visiting every once in a while.

 

[DISUNC]

What I'm saying is, the Clinton campaign is holding up these fantasy "skeletons in the closet" as a reason not to vote Obama because it's all they have on him. Meanwhile, Hillary has a number of actual skeletons who we all know about, have all defended them over, and they drag them out as if they are a fantastic reason to vote for her.:

I am not convinced they are "fantasy"!

I am sure that everyone (including you and me) has something in their background they would rather stay secret..

Ahem! here!

I am voting for Clinton because I believe she has a clearer grasp of the issues, has articulated her positions more clearly and deeply. She has more experience in working with Republicans, foreign affairs, and just about anything else. She has a track record of getting things done in the Senate that dwarfs his by a long shot. .

Same here. Also I was a bit to read that Obama missed 40 % of the vote. Also he is a junior Senator, who had Hillary as his mentor in the Senate. He wasnt even a Senator a Year and decided to run for President. A very "All about Eve" thing happening there.

Now, I bring up the skeletons as a rebuttal to those in the Obama camp who think that he is spotless. It may be true, but he would be the only person (I will not say politician) who has absolutely no secrets to hide. And if he has anything at all, Rove and Co. will find it.

....or make it up!

Not so much of a whisper about Barrack from the Republicans or anybody else. He has been so forthcoming about his past that I find it difficult to believe he has anything of consequence that he's hiding.

This is my point, the GOP, being Satan and all,...want Obama to get the Nom...KNOWING they will POUNCE him with the FULL wrath of Rove! They are being toooooo nice to him. This is the ONLY way they can get the Whitehouse!!!!! They will not lay down and let the $$$$$ flow this war is bringing in STOP.
Call me paranoid ...BUT I DONT TRUST ANYTHING THE GOP LEADERS SAY...OR DONT SAY!

Kerry was a freaking war hero - with little skeletons and look what they did to him!

"Truth" is something that has never had a place in Politics. This election is not a Frank Capra movie.....this will be more like The Exorcist! Gonna be a loooooooooooooooooooooooooong HOT summer.

Absolutely. Talk about Hillary's "net negatives" have been hashed and rehashed in polls and by the media/political pundits since she resided in the White House. It's certainly nothing new. By living a more transparent life, as chris1gill pointed out, it limits the lines of attack that the right can take against Obama.:

But this is Obamas version of his 'transparent" life...Does he have personal friends? Family? where are these people???????

I completed my absentee ballot this evening. Obama got my vote in the Ohio primary.

I thought I had the clincher with the 'He will eat your young" thought! I tried!