The Liberal Thread #2 - No Debate Please

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That did it for me!! Hillary in '08, baby!!:worship: ;)

:thumbsup2

You've been warned...
Your such a Budinski!:goodvibes

That was funny - given all the wacky stuff going around.......

On a serious note - I chose Clinton for her experience - especially in the national security and diplomatic arena ..........

I saw her in action after 9/11 - she was there on the ground try to right the wrongs Christie Todd Whitman was spewing.....

:thumbsup2 :thumbsup2 :thumbsup2 :thumbsup2 I dont know if I wrote this on this board or another....very confused with all the threads!

I know many 911 volunteers!:sick: Hillary is their Champion! Regardless of if these people live in NY, NJ or PA they all call Hillary's NY Senate office...and SHE HELPS THEM BIG TIME. Her office even calls back people on the same day. My bosses wife does MUCH volunteer work for the Volunteers, and HILLARY KNOWS people....she gets lots accomplished...for the good of people!

AND she wont eat your young!:thumbsup2

:goodvibes
 
Thanks! Anyone else want to try to sway me? :teacher: And fellow Obama supporters can chime in and tell me why I should stick to my choice! :)

I'm really glad my vote's counting this time. In '04 it was pretty much decided for Kerry by the time Ohio's primary rolled around.



Since their platforms are very similar, here are some reasons to vote for Obama:

1. Based on recent polls, it seems like Hillary would have a harder time getting elected vs. McCain than Obama would. Can we stomach another 4 years of a Republican in office? That's why people like Dawn want Hillary to win because they know McCain has a better chance.

2. I like Hillary, but don't like the baggage that comes around with her. Are we going to have to suffer through constant scandals and investigations? Even now the Lincoln Bedroom donators are coming into the limelight again. For me it's "who cares" but for others it becomes a huge distraction.

3. With Obama, I like that he talks about "us" and "we". Like we're all in this together to bring change. I know he won't be able to unite the whole country but I think he'd have a better chance. Sure he may vote very liberal, but I believe he will reach acorss the aisle and do what is best for our country.

4. as for experience, Obama has had 11 years in elected office.

"Yet even as we speak, there are those who are preparing to divide us, the spin masters and negative ad peddlers who embrace the politics of anything goes. Well, I say to them tonight, there's not a liberal America and a conservative America -- there's the United States of America.

There's not a black America and white America and Latino America and Asian America; there's the United States of America. The pundits like to slice-and-dice our country into Red States and Blue States; Red States for Republicans, Blue States for Democrats. But I've got news for them, too. We worship an awesome God in the Blue States, and we don't like federal agents poking around our libraries in the Red States. We coach Little League in the Blue States and have gay friends in the Red States.

There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq and patriots who supported it. We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America."

-- from his keynote speech at the 2004 Democratic Convention
 
I admire Senator Clinton but I firmly believe if she's the nominee then John McCain will be our next president. Her negatives are just too high. I know its a backwards way to select a nominee but that's a small part of why I believe Barack Obama has to be our candidate.
 
Very excited! Got my absentee ballot in the mail yesterday! :woohoo:

I love both candidates, but it looks like I'm voting for Obama. So if you're a Clinton supporter, now is the time to give me reasons to change my mind! :)

OK, why I'm voting for Obama and not voting for Clinton

1. Senator Clinton has been wrong from the start on the invasion of Iraq, too slow to change her position and still unable (from arrogance or calculation) to acknowledge it fully. She was also wrong last year in giving Bush a green light to invade Iran, despite the Administration's imperialism, duplicity and ineptitude. She seems still to be a proponent of American hegemony, chronically willing to operate from a we/they dynamic.

2. She is personally expedient, and a calculating opportunist, consistently willing to say and do whatever seems marketable or negotiable, rather than operating from a solid core of intrinsic values.

3. I am deeply doubtful about her electability, due to her strong and intractable negatives, which she and her campaign are currently exacerbating in their unseemly efforts to discredit Obama. I think that she is likely to lose to McCain (independents going his way, disgruntled progressives and
young people opting out) and, in the process, harm the bottom of the ticket, reversing the Democrats' legislative momentum.

4. I'm apprehensive as well about the kind of President she would be, if she were elected -- a different gender but the same old my way or the highway. Transactional not transformative. micromanagement and clannishness. Mouthing change, but constitutionally inclined to politics as usual. Flawed judgment as in her assumption that the race would be over on Super Tuesday.

5. She is only recently able to manage her husband. We have been witness to his unsavory return from statesman-philanthropist to politics and self-indulgence as usual. I have deep skepticism about the prospect of the Presidency as a two-headed monstrosity and I dread the aftermath of another Clinton incumbency.

6. Hillary Clinton wants to stop the flow of jobs to other countries, however she does not acknowledge that it was her own husbands policies that was the impetus for such a tidle wave of job loss ie. NAFTA.

7. The Senator has been disingenuous about her experience. Five years as a legislator vs. ten for Obama; partner in a regional law firm in a small third-tier city. First Lady: largely ceremonial, except for the healthcare debacle. There is no hands-on management experience of any consequence, a shortcoming exacerbated by her arrogance and inability to acknowledge mistakes and her absence of a dependable internal guidance system.

8. I have the sense that Hillary Rodham Clinton no longer knows who she genuinely is, perhaps has not known since her work on the Watergate investigation. Support for her would be support for whom, and for what

9. I am appalled by her patterns of personal presumption, her ruthlessness and vindictiveness, as early as the gratuitous Travelgate firings and as recently as her surrogates' smears against Obama on a woman's right to choose and their (including President Clinton's) abhorrent scare-tactic
misrepresentations and innuendoes with regard to race and religion leading up to South Carolina.

10. Finally, circumstantially, she stands as an obstacle to a rare and extraordinary opportunity for an authentic revitalization of our national journey -- the election in Barack Obama of a brilliant and inspiring, multiracial, multicultural candidate who would provide an antidote and
corrective to the dark corrosive abominations of the Bush regime and who holds the promise of designing and building bold and necessary new strategies and practices, internationally and domestically, for the early years of this perilous century.

Why I am voting for Obama:

1. I feel he can truly bring people together from both sides of the aisle to effect change. He has done so in Illinois as well as Washington.

2. He does not take Federal Lobbyists or Pac money, rather he has an enormous grass roots effort taking place that has sustained his candidacy. He has said on numerous occasions that he will sit down with Lobbyists and listen to them, yet he will not be bound by them, or owe them favors.

3. He is interested in not just talking about bringing our troops home from Iraq, but actually doing it. He was opposed to the war from the start, showing good judgment and sound principals.

4. He is interested in restoring to the middle class what has been lost over the last seven years, and moving them forward, moving education forward, and he knows that it can be done, and has a plan to do it.

5. Obama is not running due to his own ambition, but due to what he calls quotes from Dr. Martin Luther King "the fierce urgency of now". We have all witnessed this, he knows it, we know it.

6. As he says we are not the red states, we are not the blue states, we are the United States, he's not the status quo, change is coming.

I would rather have Obama win because he is up to the challenge of changing politics, not just going along with them. It is that time.
 

OK, why I'm voting for Obama and not voting for Clinton

1. Senator Clinton has been wrong from the start on the invasion of Iraq, too slow to change her position and still unable (from arrogance or calculation) to acknowledge it fully. She was also wrong last year in giving Bush a green light to invade Iran, despite the Administration's imperialism, duplicity and ineptitude. She seems still to be a proponent of American hegemony, chronically willing to operate from a we/they dynamic.

2. She is personally expedient, and a calculating opportunist, consistently willing to say and do whatever seems marketable or negotiable, rather than operating from a solid core of intrinsic values.

3. I am deeply doubtful about her electability, due to her strong and intractable negatives, which she and her campaign are currently exacerbating in their unseemly efforts to discredit Obama. I think that she is likely to lose to McCain (independents going his way, disgruntled progressives and
young people opting out) and, in the process, harm the bottom of the ticket, reversing the Democrats' legislative momentum.

4. I'm apprehensive as well about the kind of President she would be, if she were elected -- a different gender but the same old my way or the highway. Transactional not transformative. micromanagement and clannishness. Mouthing change, but constitutionally inclined to politics as usual. Flawed judgment as in her assumption that the race would be over on Super Tuesday.

5. She is only recently able to manage her husband. We have been witness to his unsavory return from statesman-philanthropist to politics and self-indulgence as usual. I have deep skepticism about the prospect of the Presidency as a two-headed monstrosity and I dread the aftermath of another Clinton incumbency.

6. Hillary Clinton wants to stop the flow of jobs to other countries, however she does not acknowledge that it was her own husbands policies that was the impetus for such a tidle wave of job loss ie. NAFTA.

7. The Senator has been disingenuous about her experience. Five years as a legislator vs. ten for Obama; partner in a regional law firm in a small third-tier city. First Lady: largely ceremonial, except for the healthcare debacle. There is no hands-on management experience of any consequence, a shortcoming exacerbated by her arrogance and inability to acknowledge mistakes and her absence of a dependable internal guidance system.

8. I have the sense that Hillary Rodham Clinton no longer knows who she genuinely is, perhaps has not known since her work on the Watergate investigation. Support for her would be support for whom, and for what

9. I am appalled by her patterns of personal presumption, her ruthlessness and vindictiveness, as early as the gratuitous Travelgate firings and as recently as her surrogates' smears against Obama on a woman's right to choose and their (including President Clinton's) abhorrent scare-tactic
misrepresentations and innuendoes with regard to race and religion leading up to South Carolina.

10. Finally, circumstantially, she stands as an obstacle to a rare and extraordinary opportunity for an authentic revitalization of our national journey -- the election in Barack Obama of a brilliant and inspiring, multiracial, multicultural candidate who would provide an antidote and
corrective to the dark corrosive abominations of the Bush regime and who holds the promise of designing and building bold and necessary new strategies and practices, internationally and domestically, for the early years of this perilous century.

Why I am voting for Obama:

1. I feel he can truly bring people together from both sides of the aisle to effect change. He has done so in Illinois as well as Washington.

2. He does not take Federal Lobbyists or Pac money, rather he has an enormous grass roots effort taking place that has sustained his candidacy. He has said on numerous occasions that he will sit down with Lobbyists and listen to them, yet he will not be bound by them, or owe them favors.

3. He is interested in not just talking about bringing our troops home from Iraq, but actually doing it. He was opposed to the war from the start, showing good judgment and sound principals.

4. He is interested in restoring to the middle class what has been lost over the last seven years, and moving them forward, moving education forward, and he knows that it can be done, and has a plan to do it.

5. Obama is not running due to his own ambition, but due to what he calls quotes from Dr. Martin Luther King "the fierce urgency of now". We have all witnessed this, he knows it, we know it.

6. As he says we are not the red states, we are not the blue states, we are the United States, he's not the status quo, change is coming.

I would rather have Obama win because he is up to the challenge of changing politics, not just going along with them. It is that time.

I was sitting here trying to come up with a cogent list and find you've done it for me and said it better than I would have. Thanks and a hat tip to you.:woohoo:
 
Since their platforms are very similar, here are some reasons to vote for Obama:

1. Based on recent polls, it seems like Hillary would have a harder time getting elected vs. McCain than Obama would. Can we stomach another 4 years of a Republican in office? That's why people like Dawn want Hillary to win because they know McCain has a better chance.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO Dont believe that! The polls are scewed! They are ONLY asking this of people who are voting for Obama in the primaries!!!!!!!! Which comes out to be only 2% of the American population. Obama is using this in his campaign...but again...THE POLLS are scewed!

2. I like Hillary, but don't like the baggage that comes around with her. Are we going to have to suffer through constant scandals and investigations? Even now the Lincoln Bedroom donators are coming into the limelight again. For me it's "who cares" but for others it becomes a huge distraction.

WE KNOW HILLARYS BAGGAGE...We dont KNOW OBamas....everyone has baggage. No time for taking a crapshoot with a unkown! I want to sleep in the Lincoln bedroom...and bring the Ghosthunters with me!

3. With Obama, I like that he talks about "us" and "we". Like we're all in this together to bring change. I know he won't be able to unite the whole country but I think he'd have a better chance. Sure he may vote very liberal, but I believe he will reach acorss the aisle and do what is best for our country..

I got a job.....I want a president who CAN DO...Dont like the WE crappolla! The country is NOT divided(that drives me crazy with his campaign...very misleading statement)...The politians are!!!!! Hillary has a proven track record on working with the GOP. Obama seems to me as "my way or the highway" guy. Not much different the W! But that is just my hunch!:confused3

There's not a black America and white America and Latino America and Asian America; there's the United States of America. The pundits like to slice-and-dice our country into Red States and Blue States; Red States for Republicans, Blue States for Democrats...

Sounds good...but YES in reality there is differences! Not that this is wrong, but there are, and we are United as one. Again its the GOP/DEMOCRAT leader who divide...and mostly the GOP!!!!!! (see that charade)
Barak talks a good talk...but THINK about his words...this is where the 'hollow" stuff comes into play
Ok I tried! Really gotta go Now!

:goodvibes
 
I admire Senator Clinton but I firmly believe if she's the nominee then John McCain will be our next president. Her negatives are just too high. I know its a backwards way to select a nominee but that's a small part of why I believe Barack Obama has to be our candidate.

Honestly, to me that is the same logic is why W won in 2004. People believed that you never vote out a sitting President during a war.

I dont think Obama has a chance against McCain in a GENERAL ELECTION.
 
The polls I saw are not from Obama's campaign but from MSNBC. They showed two polls, one was done by CNN and I forgot the other. Had nothing to do with the Obama campaign.

How is Obama a "my way or the highway" guy?

If there was some baggage on Barack it would be out by now. There were Clinton scandals when Bill was running in the primaries in 1992.
 
As promised ... my Obama pictures:

Long shot from my seats:
Rally-02-12-LongShot.jpg


Close ups, mostly of the jumbotron:
Rally-02-12-Close1.jpg


Rally-02-12-Close2.jpg
 
As promised ... my Obama pictures:

Wow!! And I thought the Clinton turnout looked good!

I just look forward to getting this whole nomination process settled so we can all back our candidate, regardless of whoever he/she may be, and start blasting McCain!!
 
Wow! Thanks for all the posts so far. I agree with much of what you say, LoraJ. I do think that Bill is more of a plus than a minus in the Hillary column. I think a lot of voters realize that in some way he would be part of her administration, and I think that would be a good thing. I don't think he'd be running the show behind the scenes as some think. But that's a matter of personal opinion, and I can easily see how some would count Bill as a negative.

Generally, I've been really happy with the field of candidates the Democrats put forward this time. Not just Clinton and Obama; Richardson, Biden, Dodds and Edwards were all winners too. If Obama doesn't win the nomination, I know my disappointment would be shortlived. :cheer2:
 
Wow!! And I thought the Clinton turnout looked good!
Obama pulled over 10x as many people as Bill (19,000 v/s 1700). BUT I was a lot closer to the former president yesterday than I was to Obama two days before and I liked it.

I just look forward to getting this whole nomination process settled so we can all back our candidate, regardless of whoever he/she may be, and start blasting McCain!!
Me too.
 
The polls I saw are not from Obama's campaign but from MSNBC. They showed two polls, one was done by CNN and I forgot the other. Had nothing to do with the Obama campaign..
Those polls were asked ONLY too people who voted for Obama in the Primaries!!!!!! No one else was asked that question. Thats why they were scewed.

How is Obama a "my way or the highway" guy?..
That is just my gut feeling. I have worked in Corp america for 30 years...I have seen my fair share of yuppies ( and Obama is a yuppie) come into the office and Promise change &Hope. Always...and I mean ALWAYS things got worse! Every single one was never willing to bend...it was always THEIR WAY.

If there was some baggage on Barack it would be out by now. There were Clinton scandals when Bill was running in the primaries in 1992.
not neccessarily!!!! That real estate guy he is in bed with...is gonna be a HUGE story before the General election. I forget the guys name. But Hillary brought it up in a debate, and Barak..nixed it and made it sound that they were just mere acquaintences.
Yet Barak & this guy bought houses right next door to each other ON THE SAME DAY, and have been neighbors for years! Something is there....!:confused3 :confused3 :confused3


REALLY I GOT TO GO NOW!!!! Agggggggggggggh!:lmao:
 
not neccessarily!!!! That real estate guy he is in bed with...is gonna be a HUGE story before the General election. I forget the guys name. But Hillary brought it up in a debate, and Barak..nixed it and made it sound that they were just mere acquaintences.
Yet Barak & this guy bought houses right next door to each other ON THE SAME DAY, and have been neighbors for years! Something is there....!:confused3 :confused3 :confused3


REALLY I GOT TO GO NOW!!!! Agggggggggggggh!:lmao:

Well, I read about the Rezko thing a bit. As scandals go, I don't think there's much there to go on. :confused3
 
Well, I read about the Rezko thing a bit. As scandals go, I don't think there's much there to go on. :confused3

I agree. It has about as much traction as Hillary's Johnny Chung incident a few months ago, which is now but a faded memory. I've heard the Rezko deal investigated, reported and talked about for some time know. If the media really had anything on it, we would have heard more about it.

When it comes to Obama, we're talking about a man who has apologized for an error in judgement as far as the real estate purchase and has admitted to drug use, and still he's the darling of the left, center and a nice portion of the right. As far as I can see, the guy's Teflon plus.
 
About skeletons in Obama's closet-Karl Rove and his spewing machine are not in the act yet. Just wait...
 
I agree. It has about as much traction as Hillary's Johnny Chung incident a few months ago, which is now but a faded memory. I've heard the Rezko deal investigated, reported and talked about for some time know. If the media really had anything on it, we would have heard more about it.

When it comes to Obama, we're talking about a man who has apologized for an error in judgement as far as the real estate purchase and has admitted to drug use, and still he's the darling of the left, center and a nice portion of the right. As far as I can see, the guy's Teflon plus.
'

Teflon?
Actually I think it's more he's chosen to live a pretty transparent life. That is admirable in a politician. He wrote about his youth in '06.
 
About skeletons in Obama's closet-Karl Rove and his spewing machine are not in the act yet. Just wait...

So that's what it's going to become? We go through billable hours of both Obama and Clinton's years as attorneys and pull out every shady character that they ever been even slightly associated to the 6th degree and we point that out as a potential problem? After what we all, as Democrats, went through, and all defended, with the Clinton's, from Vina Gupta to Norman Hsu to Web Hubbell to the McDougal's, the Clinton campaign feels that pointing out Obama's association with Tony Rezko as something that should be looked at? Frankly, I think it's a hypocritical line of attack at very best and beneath the best interests of the party, but that's just me.
 
Honestly, to me that is the same logic is why W won in 2004. People believed that you never vote out a sitting President during a war.

That is why so many i know even though they hated Bush did not want to change Chiefs during time of war..Even DH at that point was disgusted with Bush(and he's a Rep) but voted for him anyway....

I don't think Obama has a chance against McCain in a GENERAL ELECTION.

I concur...I think however that there are so many Dems that they wont care what comes up at that point about him...to many Dems don't want another Rep in office...so many Dems will vote even if it was Elmer FUD as our candidate...

Wow!! And I thought the Clinton turnout looked good!

I just look forward to getting this whole nomination process settled so we can all back our candidate, regardless of whoever he/she may be, and start blasting McCain!!


AMEN!!!!!
 
So that's what it's going to become? We go through billable hours of both Obama and Clinton's years as attorneys and pull out every shady character that they ever been even slightly associated to the 6th degree and we point that out as a potential problem? After what we all, as Democrats, went through, and all defended, with the Clinton's, from Vina Gupta to Norman Hsu to Web Hubbell to the McDougal's, the Clinton campaign feels that pointing out Obama's association with Tony Rezko as something that should be looked at? Frankly, I think it's a hypocritical line of attack at very best and beneath the best interests of the party, but that's just me.

Are you suggesting that Karl Rove has the Democratic Party's best interests at heart? I am obviously misunderstanding your post. Can you please clarify.
 
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