Sorry to bring up again, but does anyone feel like me? How do I get past this?

[BuckNaked]

You don't think we should have gone into Afghanistan either? What do you believe would have been an appropriate response to the 9/11 attacks?

And where, by the way, is all of this oil that we went into Iraq to grab?

 

[oracle]

Originally posted by dmadman43
I'm glad to see you finally admit Democrats takl in extremes. Glad we got that settled.

You really make me laugh sometimes, I have to admit it. I'm not even sure how to answer this. I guess I would start by saying that I've never denied it, so I don't know what you mean by "finally". Every party has their fringe extremists, I don't think anyone would deny that (or at least I'd hope they wouldn't). I think anyone who's a moderate (which would be the majority of both parties) doesn't approve of that behaviour. Now I know all the Conservatives will yell about the Democrats being worse, and they're WAY more extremist. Well, sorry guys, but that's nonsense. Of course it seems that way, when you're on the other side. Trust me, from this side of the aisle, there's just as many fanatics on the right as there are on the left. I don't see why everyone can't admit that both sides have their extremists, and agree that they don't represent the majority of the party. To me, that's just the obvious thing to do.

Now I'll wait and see who will be the first one to make the 'Democrats are SOOOOO much more evil' argument.

 

[oracle]

Originally posted by Kendra17
Okay. let me try to at least explain myself clearly (no, I'm not being condescending. . .I think it's a difficult subject to explain well.)

I understand what you're saying, I realize the distinction you're making. But I think it all boils down to the fact that both sides have said or done things that were not representative of either party. I realize that the quotes I posted are not representative of the Republican party as a whole. But I also think you need to realize that the Bush-Hitler photos do not represent all Democrats. Just because every poster didn't jump to condemn them doesn't make them accepted. I haven't seen anyone else condemn all those Republican quotes, but I'm not assuming that everyone else condones them. You're just making a logical leap in that conclusion, with no evidence to back it up. Silence does not equal acceptance. If you think that it does, then you'd have to agree that all Republicans have given their support to the Republican quotes I posted.

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by oracle
I understand what you're saying, I realize the distinction you're making. But I think it all boils down to the fact that both sides have said or done things that were not representative of either party. I realize that the quotes I posted are not representative of the Republican party as a whole. But I also think you need to realize that the Bush-Hitler photos do not represent all Democrats. Just because every poster didn't jump to condemn them doesn't make them accepted. I haven't seen anyone else condemn all those Republican quotes, but I'm not assuming that everyone else condones them. You're just making a logical leap in that conclusion, with no evidence to back it up. Silence does not equal acceptance. If you think that it does, then you'd have to agree that all Republicans have given their support to the Republican quotes I posted.

Thank you, Oracle.

Okay, how 'bout this? On the threads I was on, many of the Democrats that visit on here (but have been strangely absent since Bush won the election), EXCUSED those pictures I'm referring to. They disregarded them. They did not see that there was a difference in the kind of terminology we're discussing and the pictures we're discussing and pictures such as kerry and dukakis on the motorcycle.

The other reason i believe this is because these types of images and references are used standardly during protests and marches, circulated in emails, etc., and comments are made pretty freely. I really, TRULY, don't see Republicans doing the same thing. I know you posted those comments, but can you imagine if there were marches with slogans like that? Or, insulting emails being circulated? The only people, I think, that do stuff like that would be white supremacists or neo Nazis. I really haven't seen anything like your examples in similar cases.

These were 2 separate and long threads--much like this one. So, my conclusion after those photos and phrases were excused were that the Democrats don't or won't recognize it. And, several of the Republicans on there PRESSED them to admit that there's a difference-- to no avail

That's why I am really surprised that you stated that these types of things ARE extreme. I'm really pleased to see this, since I really truly believe that many Democrats or others on the Left here in America or elsewhere have become really really extreme. And, that the mainstream has become extreme. Not everyone, but many.

Anyways, thanks again.

 

[oracle]

Kendra, I think we agree in principle here, but there's a few things I wanted to comment on:

Originally posted by Kendra17
Okay, how 'bout this? On the threads I was on, many of the Democrats that visit on here (but have been strangely absent since Bush won the election), EXCUSED those pictures I'm referring to. They disregarded them. They did not see that there was a difference in the kind of terminology we're discussing and the pictures we're discussing and pictures such as kerry and dukakis on the motorcycle.

I have to admit, I'm not familiar with the threads you're referring to. I have seen the Bush/Hitler photos in other places, but not on the DIS. So I don't know how others responded. Unfortunately, my workload has limited the time I have to enlighten all you conservatives on here

The other reason i believe this is because these types of images and references are used standardly during protests and marches, circulated in emails, etc., and comments are made pretty freely.

I think there's an important point to be made here. Marches and protests tend to bring out the craziest of the radicals. They see it as a place to get their message out to a lot of people, regardless of how despicable that message might be. They DO NOT represent the majority of the people at that protest. For instance, I went to the big Iraq war protest here in Ottawa, on the weekend that all the major protests took place. I was disgusted at what I saw. People used the protest as a place to promote anti-Semitic ideas, and distribute literature comparable (if not worse) to the Bush-Hitler photos. Despite my desire to protest the war, I ended up leaving because I didn't feel comfortable being associated with that stuff. I'm sure most of the people at the protest felt the same way. It seems that by nature, protests bring out all the radicals, who do not represent most of the people who are there.

 

[Kendra17]

Originally posted by oracle
Kendra, I think we agree in principle here, but there's a few things I wanted to comment on:



I have to admit, I'm not familiar with the threads you're referring to. I have seen the Bush/Hitler photos in other places, but not on the DIS. So I don't know how others responded. Unfortunately, my workload has limited the time I have to enlighten all you conservatives on here



I think there's an important point to be made here. Marches and protests tend to bring out the craziest of the radicals. They see it as a place to get their message out to a lot of people, regardless of how despicable that message might be. They DO NOT represent the majority of the people at that protest. For instance, I went to the big Iraq war protest here in Ottawa, on the weekend that all the major protests took place. I was disgusted at what I saw. People used the protest as a place to promote anti-Semitic ideas, and distribute literature comparable (if not worse) to the Bush-Hitler photos. Despite my desire to protest the war, I ended up leaving because I didn't feel comfortable being associated with that stuff. I'm sure most of the people at the protest felt the same way. It seems that by nature, protests bring out all the radicals, who do not represent most of the people who are there.

I pm'd you the links. . . they were kind of controversial, so I don't want to just link them here.

Anyways, it's very late, so I'm going to sign off, but I feel a lot better after reading your thoughts about this. Thanks for taking the time to share them.

If more people would admit what you have stated, I think Kerry could have won. Obviously, I'm glad he didn't, but I'm not the only one who believes that the party has become too extreme and has to move a bit back to the center. Just the fact alone that you have a problem with what you saw at those marches, for instance (which is exactly what I was referring to), causes me to believe you completely understand what I--and others here and elsewhere--truly believe is true. More Democrats ought to be condemning this stuff, too, I think. . . instead of embracing these folks just because they too are anti-Bush.

Thank you very much!

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by Kendra17
Okay. let me try to at least explain myself clearly (no, I'm not being condescending. . .I think it's a difficult subject to explain well.)

Those republicans you quoted had ugly thoughts. I don't approve of how they secretly feel, and now that I knwo that they might feel this way I would most likely not support them politically. I think they are a poor example of the Republican party and am ashamed that they think that and stated that.

. . . however-- the thoughts they unintentionally shared were just that--unintentional. That is, at least from the quotes you provided, it didn't seem to me that they planned to share those thoughts and I'm assuming that they regretted it immediately after they said it. I realize the regret they have might ONLY exist because they were "found out". They didn't get away with it, so to speak. This is bad. but, it's not an example of agitprop. It's not propaganda specifically created to stir up hateful feelings. If they had their thoughts printed in a little booklet much like the Elders of the Protocol of Zion, that would be considered agitprop. But, loose lips and ugly thoughts are not.

The bush as hitler references ARE, conversely, examples of propaganda specifically directed at those that are less educated, and created to INTENTIONALLY stir up hateful feelings. It is meant to CONFUSE the audience. It is meant to make the audience feel ugly negative feelings towards whoever--Bush, in this case. When I've seen these pictures or I've heard these references used, I do not see a backlash against the person delivering this type of material. On the Left, for the most part--at least as far as I've seen it, the only people who take issue with this type of material are you and the conservatives. Others cannot admit that this stuff is absolutely horrid.

That is the difference.

Kendra, ITA. You hit it spot on!

 

[wdwoldtimer]

Yes, thanks for that definition of agitprop...the distinctions you made are crystal clear.

 

[wdwoldtimer]

Originally posted by Wish I lived in Fl
But suicide bombers have had their own "INNOCENT MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN" KILLED ALREADY. That is what motivates them.

Wasn't there a plane blown up last month by two Chechen WIDOWS?

Yeah?? Even if that WERE true....so what?!?

Do you actually think every homicide bomber commits their final act of mass murder because they lost some "innocent" family member? That's pretty naive. It's not "an eye for an eye" that motivates them. Sure maybe they've lost someone before..maybe in a prior suicide bombing, maybe while committing some other act of violence, and sure, maybe when it was undeserved. But the idea that it's just revenge is ludicrous. It's politically motivated. It's religiously motivated. It's done to be a martyr or to be surrounded by virgins in "heaven"...take your pick.
But hey, I'll even give you that one...let's say it's payback that motivates them. Does that in any way justify it, make it acceptable or *gasp* make it comparable to how one should feel after their favorite candidate lost an election?!

But if that's so, then there's thousands of families whose innocent relatives and friends were murdered on 9/11. I guess it would be understandable and acceptable if they each go blow themselves up a couple hundred innocent Arabs, eh?

Murder is murder.

 

[KarenC]

Here's how I'm dealing with it. It's all up to Bush now. He's got no excuses. While I have strong opinions about the direction our country is going, I'm willing to accept that my opinions are wrong. I don't doubt that President Bush has the best interests of our country at heart, and I wish him, and us well.

And as the parent of an almost 17-year-old son, I will do everything in my power to hold him, and my Republican congressman, to their pledges that there will not be a draft!

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by KarenC
And as the parent of an almost 17-year-old son, I will do everything in my power to hold him, and my Republican congressman, to their pledges that there will not be a draft!

Blame your Democartic buddies for starting that rumor and going so far as introducing it to be voted down. There will not be a draft. There is no need for one, now that we likely aren't going to need 40,000 extra troops like Kerry promised he would send to Iraq.

Nor will there likely be "national service", which Kerry also promised.

 

[doubletrouble_vb]

Originally posted by babar
I really feel very upset about this election. I don't mean that it wasn't fair, but I honestly felt that Bush needed to go. I felt it very strongly!!

How do I get past this? How can I feel I'm being spoken for or represented in this country? This is one of the worst days I can remember.....

Getting past this is easy. Your president mostly does not speak for you...your senator sort of speaks for you...and your representatively definitely is supposed to. So reach out to the people who are accessible to you and make sure they know how you and other members of their constituency feel about the issues nearest and dearest to your heart. Make sure you go out and vote in each and every election that comes up over the next four years. If you are comfortable with those who represent you then look towards assisting another area in shifting the balance of power more to your liking.

No need to sulk. Get out there and make them stand up and listen to you! There are plenty of people who will need to start campaigning for re-election. Make them earn it by working for your own best interests.

 

[dcentity2000]

I'm so, so sorry

Kerry was a brilliant man; I've NEVER been quite so impressed with a politician!

Bush should have gone but the sad fact is he is still there.

All you can do is tell yourself that after less than four years he's gone for good and that the election was won by the smallest margin for almost a hundred years.

This man will leave cuts in the flesh of history - but cuts heal.

If you ever need a break, come and stay in the EU; we're too beurocratic to be conservative



Rich::

 

[denisenh]

Originally posted by KarenC
Here's how I'm dealing with it. It's all up to Bush now. He's got no excuses. While I have strong opinions about the direction our country is going, I'm willing to accept that my opinions are wrong. I don't doubt that President Bush has the best interests of our country at heart, and I wish him, and us well.

And as the parent of an almost 17-year-old son, I will do everything in my power to hold him, and my Republican congressman, to their pledges that there will not be a draft!

KarenC, your opinions are yours. They are not wrong.
Many of us do not like the direction our country is going. Pray for us all, thats what I have been doing.

 

[gometros]

Originally posted by Wish I lived in Fl
But suicide bombers have had their own "INNOCENT MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN" KILLED ALREADY. That is what motivates them.

Bull. Homicide bombers (don't call them suicide bombers. That paints them as some kind of heroic martyrs. They are nothing but a bunch of cowardly killers) do it for the misbegotten idea that they will be rewarded by Allah for killing infidels. Those infidels only crime are wanting to live in peace.