Sorry to bring up again, but does anyone feel like me? How do I get past this?

A Blue City (Disconsolate, Even) Bewildered by a Red America
By Joseph Berger
The New York Times

Thursday 04 November 2004

Striking a characteristic New York pose near Lincoln Center yesterday, Beverly Camhe clutched three morning newspapers to her chest while balancing a large latte and talked about how disconsolate she was to realize that not only had her candidate, John Kerry, lost but that she and her city were so out of step with the rest of the country.

"Do you know how I described New York to my European friends?" she said. "New York is an island off the coast of Europe."

Like Ms. Camhe, a film producer, three of every four voters in New York City gave Mr. Kerry their vote, a starkly different choice from the rest of the nation. So they awoke yesterday with something of a woozy existential hangover and had to confront once again how much of a 51st State they are, different in their sensibilities, lifestyles and polyglot texture from most of America. The election seemed to reverse the perspective of the famous Saul Steinberg cartoon, with much of the land mass of America now in the foreground and New York a tiny, distant and irrelevant dot.

Some New Yorkers, like Meredith Hackett, a 25-year-old barmaid in Brooklyn, said they didn't even know any people who had voted for President Bush. (In both Manhattan and the Bronx, Mr. Bush received 16.7 percent of the vote.) Others spoke of a feeling of isolation from their fellow Americans, a sense that perhaps Middle America doesn't care as much about New York and its animating concerns as it seemed to in the weeks immediately after the attack on the World Trade Center.

"Everybody seems to hate us these days," said Zito Joseph, a 63-year-old retired psychiatrist. "None of the people who are likely to be hit by a terrorist attack voted for Bush. But the heartland people seemed to be saying, 'We're not affected by it if there would be another terrorist attack.' "

City residents talked about this chasm between outlooks with characteristic New York bluntness.

Dr. Joseph, a bearded, broad-shouldered man with silken gray hair, was sharing coffee and cigarettes with his fellow dog walker, Roberta Kimmel Cohn, at an outdoor table outside the hole-in-the-wall Breadsoul Cafe near Lincoln Center. The site was almost a cliché corner of cosmopolitan Manhattan, with a newsstand next door selling French and Italian newspapers and, a bit farther down, the Lincoln Plaza theater showing foreign movies.

"I'm saddened by what I feel is the obtuseness and shortsightedness of a good part of the country - the heartland," Dr. Joseph said. "This kind of redneck, shoot-from-the-hip mentality and a very concrete interpretation of religion is prevalent in Bush country - in the heartland."

"New Yorkers are more sophisticated and at a level of consciousness where we realize we have to think of globalization, of one mankind, that what's going to injure masses of people is not good for us," he said.

His friend, Ms. Cohn, a native of Wisconsin who deals in art, contended that New Yorkers were not as fooled by Mr. Bush's statements as other Americans might be. "New Yorkers are savvy," she said. "We have street smarts. Whereas people in the Midwest are more influenced by what their friends say."

"They're very 1950's," she said of Midwesterners. "When I go back there, I feel I'm in a time warp."

Dr. Joseph acknowledged that such attitudes could feed into the perception that New Yorkers are cultural elitists, but he didn't apologize for it.

"People who are more competitive and proficient at what they do tend to gravitate toward cities," he said.

Like those in the rest of the country, New Yorkers stayed up late watching the results, and some went to bed with a glimmer of hope that Mr. Kerry might yet find victory in some fortuitous combination of battleground states. But they awoke to reality. Some politically conscious children were disheartened - or sleepy -enough to ask parents if they could stay home. But even grownups were unnerved.

"To paraphrase our current president, I'm in shock and awe," said Keithe Sales, a 58-year-old former publishing administrator walking a dog near Central Park. He said he and friends shared a feeling of "disempowerment" as a result of the country's choice of President Bush. "There is a feeling of 'What do I have to do to get this man out of office?'''

Originally posted by treesinger
There's nothing anyone can do about it now. We all voted and the Rep. side won. Spend the next 4 yrs convincing people why your side should be the majority. Go into your community and do the things that Kerry would want you to do. Lead the world by example. If you set an example that a majority of Americans prefer, they will follow.

After all, according to the article posted heretofore; we'uns here in "The Heartland" are nuttin' more'n sheep who only follers the advice of our friends. We'uns would foller them thar street smarter folks who live in the cities! After all, we all know that us country hicks dunno nuttin' and sure 'nuf cain't think without ur help. Feed us a good line and we'll follow you anywhere 'cuz we all ain't smart 'nuf to think for usselves. Thank God we'ens have y'all to show us the true way! :rolleyes:

Condescending doesn't even begin to describe that article! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :mad: :p
 
I came in on page one of this thread.

My intent was to take a look and be helpful. That's how the thread started, with people being helpful. On both sides. I didn't respond to the OP. I was taken aback by missypie's comments. I responded. One sentence. I said the comments were very disturbing. They were! As I stated before, a person can deconstruct the intent all day long, but the comments crossed the line.

IMO, the tone of the thread changed with people defending such comments that aren't defendable.

Yes, I can "see" how your side feels about the disappointment. Yes, things have been stated that aren't helpful. I think that the derrogatory statements that followed (from the Republican side) were in response to the put downs for their reaction to missypie. And it degenerated from there.

You can't have it both ways. (Again generally speaking.) You can't put down people as that article did, and as people have stated about "lack of class" and then run back in your corner and say "poor me". That's talking out of both sides of your mouth. You do the same thing you accuse others of doing! (You in the general sense.)

I do think your side is rubbing our noses in your loss. The posting of that article is a prime example. There are other examples as well, but there is no need to go into it.

Have a nice day. :)
 
Originally posted by crazyforgoofy
You allowed? Oh thank you so very much. Remind me to kiss your ring.:rolleyes:


Enough of the tears and handwringing. There is a real opportunity for change in this country. Tax reform, an opportunity for young workers to invest in for their future, the stock market is up and the world will go on. How do you think those of us who couldn't stand Bill Clinton felt? We put up with it. The world didn't end and here we are today. Its been 48 hours. President Bush is president and over half of the nation is happy with that. I certainly understood the angst and disappointment but anyone that allows election depression to consume them is making a bad choice.
 
Okay, one more time. I did NOT make the comment about suicide bombers. I feel fine today, I'm not depressed, thanks.:p


I appreciate whoever felt the need to post on this...I mean look how long it got!


Carry on if you have too....

andrea:)

***please stop pm'ing me about the suicide bomb thing, I'm not going to answer people about.....I didn't say it!!!!:p
 

Originally posted by babar
Okay, one more time. I did NOT make the comment about suicide bombers. I feel fine today, I'm not depressed, thanks.:p


I appreciate whoever felt the need to post on this...I mean look how long it got!


Carry on if you have too....

andrea:)

I am glad that you feel better. ..... Really!
:D
 
Tess, two things...

First, I'm not sure why you quoted part of my post. I'm guessing you were agreeing with it? Just curious because you didn't say anything about my quote in your post.

Second, the article is definitely condescending. But I must admit, a general feeling by those in the heartland is that city folk are elitist, morally bankrupt, afraid of having a national identity, Godless, socialist people who want the government to solve everything. So, yes, the article is condescending. But balanced against how "country folk" feel about them, I think we're even. So it doesn't make me angry. Actually, it just reinforces what I've thought about city folk in general. I promise not be mad at them for the article if they aren't mad at me for thinking what I think of them.

But I must admit, I'm comforted by the thought that there are more people who think like me than people that think like them in this country. It helps every day that I wake up in this big Blue county in this *little* Blue state of mine.

Actually, Delaware once again proved what a microcosm it is. There are only three counties. The two southern counties were Blue by a comfortable margin. No cities to speak of down there though. New Castle County, in the north along the I95 corridor, has the city of Wilmington. And NCCo was greatly Blue. Blue enough to overpower the rest of the state.

Just an observation. Another kernel of proof that Dems rule the cities and Reps rule the hills.
 
Originally posted by babar
Okay, one more time. I did NOT make the comment about suicide bombers. I feel fine today, I'm not depressed, thanks.:p


I appreciate whoever felt the need to post on this...I mean look how long it got!


Carry on if you have too....

andrea:)

I'm glad you feel better too. Truly.

(I knew all along you didn't make the comments about the suicide bombers.)
 
/
Originally posted by treesinger
Tess, two things...

First, I'm not sure why you quoted part of my post. I'm guessing you were agreeing with it?

Yes, in fact, very early on in this thread; I posted nearly the same thing to the OP.

Second, the article is definitely condescending. But I must admit, a general feeling by those in the heartland is that city folk are elitist, morally bankrupt, afraid of having a national identity, Godless, socialist people who want the government to solve everything. So, yes, the article is condescending. But balanced against how "country folk" feel about them, I think we're even. So it doesn't make me angry. Actually, it just reinforces what I've thought about city folk in general. I promise not be mad at them for the article if they aren't mad at me for thinking what I think of them.

I really haven't given the "city folk" that much consideration. I've never felt they were elitist, morally bankrupt, etc.--probably because they, until now, just haven't had space in my head. After reading that drivel, I'm more inclined to wonder if that's what people truly think of us who choose a quieter life? How absolutely self-centered to believe that your way of life somehow makes you more intelligent than those who've chosen differently. Further, there are plenty of people here in "The Heartland" that feel the government should be their caretaker as well--lack of personal responsibility runs rampant in society--it's certainly not exclusive to the city.

But I must admit, I'm comforted by the thought that there are more people who think like me than people that think like them in this country. It helps every day that I wake up in this big Blue county in this *little* Blue state of mine.

Just an observation. Another kernel of proof that Dems rule the cities and Reps rule the hills.

Actually, my state--despite the way the totals went, was a sea of red--my county included. The only blue in MI were the cities--Grand Rapids, Lansing, Detroit, Saginaw/Bay City, Flint. . .oh yeah, I guess that's the part where they are more intelligent than those of us who live in the less civilized portion of the state. :rolleyes: I guess I should also fess up--I'm originally from :eek: OH. OH, which BTW, only earned Kerry votes in it's major cities (minus Cincinnati)--more country cousin mentality there I guess.

All joking aside--I do agree with your post--the OP needs to become proactive and involved with issues that are truly important to her. If the outcome of the election caused such depths of despair, taking charge and attempting to bring about change certainly will return her sense of control.

As I originally posted, I've felt that sick in the pit of my stomach feeling when an election hasn't gone my way. To say that time will heal it may not be accurate--I never could watch Bill Clinton without feeling as if I could spit nails. He was like nails on the chalkboard to me! Still, I survived his tenure.
 
Originally posted by grumpy55
That was a good post. And that might have been an easier transition to make had the winners agreed when we repeatedly requested that they leave us alone for 24 hours while we came to grips with our loss. But they were completely unable to do that, posting on the Kerry thread with taunting messages. They did everything they could to keep the flames of the animosity going, and then they claim innocence. And the sad part is, they actually believe their own fantasy. Any decent person would have gone elsewhere to gloat yesterday. Is that how any of you would bring up your kids? To taunt the losing team after a game?

Not all or even the majority of the 'winners' did that.

Your screen name suits you well!

-Tony
 
Missing denisenh quote, how she 'correctly read' missy's post about suicide bombers, and how the rest of us were taking it out of context.....



Thank goodness you are both a mind reader and a prophet. I feel so much better now that I know, that you know how Missy felt.

I guess I'm just a dumb redneck, rural Bush Zombie Hick, I believed what I read. And I responded to that.

But now game over, thread closed, the great one has spoken and correctly interpreted the 'facts' for the rest of us.

Just like a Kerry-Elitest Liberal, who still wonders why they lost.

Sheesh, get over yourself.

-Tony
 
Originally posted by wdwoldtimer
You're right, Kendra, neither did I. If I thought she was really considering blowing people up, I would have called the FBI. But not only was it extreme, afterwards it seemed some were actually validating what suicide bombers do. When you hear stuff like, (paraphrase) "What would you do if your family was wiped out and your government wasn't representing you and you felt lost and hopeless??" it starts to sound like a defense of suicide bombers.

If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck....

wdwoldtimer, your instincts were absolutely right, it was the defense of the Homicide Bombers that you read correctly.

-Tony
 
Originally posted by Kendra17
Your examples are interesting, Oracle, kind of. But, it's not the same, in my opinion. These are stupid, off the cuff remarks. Some are inexcusable, definitely, but they do not have the cruel INTENT of comparing Bush to Hitler, Saddam, OBL, or other Nazis or Islamofascists.

Well that's an interesting way of interpreting things. It's good to know that you don't see using the 'n' word as having cruel intent. Or saying the entire black community are a bunch of drug using gun owners. But hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I have heard of extreme Republicans. I don't think that's what i said. . .if I did, please let me amend that. I said that i don't hear the same angry rhetoric coming from Republicans.

Actually you said that you didn't hear extreme rhetoric coming from the Republican side. Which is ridiculous.


And, truth be told. . .some of those comments you just posted are awfully bad. Im assuming that most of those folks apologized for those remarks and/or were disparaged by other members of their party. Mainstream republicans are NOT racist and hate that those associated with our party may speak this way.

Do you not see the hypocrisy in giving your party the benefit of the doubt, but not the Democrats. Nevermind the fact that your examples come from lunatics at a keyboard, and mine came from Republican Party members.

And, that is considered OKAY by all of you when they've happened. This is considered mainstream by most of you. Posting pictures of Bush with a Hitler mustache and Nazi armband is considered acceptable by many of you.

If you could show me the "Bush is Hitler: Democrats Unite!" post, I'd love to see it. Otherwise, keep your assumptions to yourself.
 
Originally posted by oracle
Well that's an interesting way of interpreting things. It's good to know that you don't see using the 'n' word as having cruel intent. Or saying the entire black community are a bunch of drug using gun owners. But hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion.



Actually you said that you didn't hear extreme rhetoric coming from the Republican side. Which is ridiculous.




Do you not see the hypocrisy in giving your party the benefit of the doubt, but not the Democrats. Nevermind the fact that your examples come from lunatics at a keyboard, and mine came from Republican Party members.



If you could show me the "Bush is Hitler: Democrats Unite!" post, I'd love to see it. Otherwise, keep your assumptions to yourself.


oracle, there is no post here titled that. But, I have to say, you are the first person who is admitting that is wrong. Look up my name with the word agitprop. . .i'm sure you'll find the two threads that I'm referring to. None of the dems on those would admit that the comparisons to hitler, etc. were wrong. Thank you for admitting such.

Let me clarify what I think of those republicans that said such things. I think it's HORRIBLE. But, that's the point. Not one republican I know wouldn't rally against anyone making those statements. What I've found with the bush is hitler stuff is that with the exception of YOU, not one of the Democrats stated there was a difference between the examples I or phantom used.

I don't think the statements you gave as examples are excusable. I really don't. However, in the post you made, it seemed like ugly slips, ugly thoughts. No, the intent didn't seem CRUEL. Really--even if it actually was cruel, which I agree that it was. Those words were cruel and hurtful. But, they SEEMED like ugly slips of the tongue.

This doesn't make is okay, it just makes it different than the examples I gave. Those were created to BE cruel from the start. They were ugly thoughts and ideas that were intentionally shared.

So, your examples were not agitprop. Mine were. That's the difference. They are both ugly, but it's still not the same.
 
Originally posted by Kendra17
I don't think the statements you gave as examples are excusable. I really don't. However, in the post you made, it seemed like ugly slips, ugly thoughts. No, the intent didn't seem CRUEL. Really--even if it actually was cruel, which I agree that it was. Those words were cruel and hurtful. But, they SEEMED like ugly slips of the tongue.

Well, you call them inexcusable, but then you spend the rest of the paragraph excusing them. Whether they're ugly slips of the tongue or not is irrelevent. Those Republicans still thought that way, whether they meant to make it public or not. How you can deny that some of those comments were meant to be cruel is beyond me. Everyone's perception is different I guess.
 
Originally posted by oracle
What are you talking about? She said that Republicans didn't talk in extremes like the Democrats do, and I provided examples that they do. Maybe you should re-read the thread, and the quote I was responding to.

I'm glad to see you finally admit Democrats takl in extremes. Glad we got that settled.
 
Hey, don't forget Dem campaign photo which superimposed GW's face on a handicapped kid competing in the Special Olympics with a caption about "retards voting for Bush". That was a nice one.
 
Originally posted by wdwoldtimer
Hey, don't forget Dem campaign photo which superimposed GW's face on a handicapped kid competing in the Special Olympics with a caption about "retards voting for Bush". That was a nice one.

no, believe me, I didn't forget it! But, remember that we were blamed for doing it and actually framing the dems?
hahahahah

Oracle, no, I'm not excusing it. I'm explaining how some things fall under the category of that fancy word agitprop and some does not.

They are both inexcusable, but they are completely different.
 
Originally posted by oracle
Well, you call them inexcusable, but then you spend the rest of the paragraph excusing them. Whether they're ugly slips of the tongue or not is irrelevent. Those Republicans still thought that way, whether they meant to make it public or not. How you can deny that some of those comments were meant to be cruel is beyond me. Everyone's perception is different I guess.

Okay. let me try to at least explain myself clearly (no, I'm not being condescending. . .I think it's a difficult subject to explain well.)

Those republicans you quoted had ugly thoughts. I don't approve of how they secretly feel, and now that I knwo that they might feel this way I would most likely not support them politically. I think they are a poor example of the Republican party and am ashamed that they think that and stated that.

. . . however-- the thoughts they unintentionally shared were just that--unintentional. That is, at least from the quotes you provided, it didn't seem to me that they planned to share those thoughts and I'm assuming that they regretted it immediately after they said it. I realize the regret they have might ONLY exist because they were "found out". They didn't get away with it, so to speak. This is bad. but, it's not an example of agitprop. It's not propaganda specifically created to stir up hateful feelings. If they had their thoughts printed in a little booklet much like the Elders of the Protocol of Zion, that would be considered agitprop. But, loose lips and ugly thoughts are not.

The bush as hitler references ARE, conversely, examples of propaganda specifically directed at those that are less educated, and created to INTENTIONALLY stir up hateful feelings. It is meant to CONFUSE the audience. It is meant to make the audience feel ugly negative feelings towards whoever--Bush, in this case. When I've seen these pictures or I've heard these references used, I do not see a backlash against the person delivering this type of material. On the Left, for the most part--at least as far as I've seen it, the only people who take issue with this type of material are you and the conservatives. Others cannot admit that this stuff is absolutely horrid.

That is the difference.
 
Originally posted by babar
I really feel very upset about this election. I don't mean that it wasn't fair, but I honestly felt that Bush needed to go. I felt it very strongly!!

How do I get past this? How can I feel I'm being spoken for or represented in this country? This is one of the worst days I can remember.....:(

I really felt that Kerry was a big liar who would do anything to get elected including selling our country out to France and putting us at risk of more terror attackes while raising my taxes and I am not upper class. So in my case I feel greta that my next 4 years will be even better than my last 4 years which were the best in my life thanks to the president.
 
"Yes, suicide bombers may feel desperation but they KILL INNOCENT MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN and themselves as a result."

But suicide bombers have had their own "INNOCENT MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN" KILLED ALREADY. That is what motivates them.

Wasn't there a plane blown up last month by two Chechen WIDOWS?

Our wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have killed innocent men, women and children. These wars were declared by President Bush. Will they end quickly or expand to more countries?(Iran,Syria)
Would a different administration have chosen war to fight terror?
Or better use of U.S. intelligence and police action and international cooperation on terrorist intelligence.

I respected the President as President and figured he must have info we didn't when he said the Iraqis had WMD.
Now think it was just an oil grab.

I don't want my son dying just so others can afford to drive a car that gets 11 MPG.

Lets raise the gas tax to fund the war since that's why we are there.
 













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