So my daughter just had her first plane ride to Disney

[North of Mouse]

Perhaps because air travel is still public and you don't get to set the limits of propriety for others in order to maximize your own comfort ?

Living in a society means that you will sometimes have unpleasant interactions with other people, that's simply the inherant and unavoidable cost. Suggesting that this cost in not unavoidable and that everything would be peachy if everyone only conformed to one's personal social moores, makes one come off ( if you don't mid me saying) as having an astonishing sense of entitlement. But that's just me.

How in this world did this answer of yours have anything to do with the part of my post that you quoted?

My original post #71 - your quote of part of it #72 with this answer that has nothing to do with it.

 

[manhattanman]

How in this world did this answer of yours have anything to do with the part of my post that you quoted?

My original post #71 - your quote of part of it #72 with this answer that has nothing to do with it.

you wrote
"Why does someone always like to say that parents that raise their children to behave get that statement slammed at them?

which statement are you referring to ? Get your own private jet ? Because if having to functionally interact with other members of society causes you such distress then getting a private jet would be just what the doctor ordered.

 

[stitchlovestink]

you wrote
"Why does someone always like to say that parents that raise their children to behave get that statement slammed at them?

which statement are you referring to ? Get your own private jet ? Because if having to functionally interact with other members of society causes you such distress then getting a private jet would be just what the doctor ordered.

How about the parents who are rude enough to put a Child who they KNOW is going to scream during the entire flight as the Grandmother has already admitted to those around her....How about THEY rent the private jet???
This was NOT a new situation. It had happened before. But the parents didn't want to be bothered or inconvenienced themselves listening to the child scream. So they were RUDE and put her on a flight and subjected the rest of the plane to listening to her scream. Honestly, I feel the worst for the Grandmother. If I were the Grandmother, there is no way on this earth I would have agreed to do that. It wasn't fair to her, the child, or anyone on that plane. I would have said, Sorry make other arrangements. And YES, I have kids! And look forward to being a Grandma one day but not too soon!!

 

[manhattanman]

How about the parents who are rude enough to put a Child who they KNOW is going to scream during the entire flight as the Grandmother has already admitted to those around her....How about THEY rent the private jet???
This was NOT a new situation. It had happened before. But the parents didn't want to be bothered or inconvenienced themselves listening to the child scream. So they were RUDE and put her on a flight and subjected the rest of the plane to listening to her scream. Honestly, I feel the worst for the Grandmother. If I were the Grandmother, there is no way on this earth I would have agreed to do that. It wasn't fair to her, the child, or anyone on that plane. I would have said, Sorry make other arrangements. And YES, I have kids! And look forward to being a Grandma one day but not too soon!!

since when did a child crying become " rude " ? it might be loud and unpleasant but lots of things in life are. I don't think something that is involuntary can be rude.

do you berate the birds for flying ? Are fish being rude for swimming so well ? Young kids will cry sometimes, sometimes for extended periods and in many cases there is not a lot the parent can do ( despite their best intentions). perhaps the granmother could have used one of those little pillows to smother the kid till she passed out so that a bunch of stangers could resume enjoying the flight ?

 

[sam_gordon]

since when did a child crying become " rude " ? it might be loud and unpleasant but lots of things in life are. I don't think something that is involuntary can be rude.

do you berate the birds for flying ? Are fish being rude for swimming so well ? Young kids will cry sometimes, sometimes for extended periods and in many cases there is not a lot the parent can do ( despite their best intentions). perhaps the granmother could have used one of those little pillows to smother the kid till she passed out so that a bunch of stangers could resume enjoying the flight ?

Might I suggest you go back and read some of the posts you've quoted? You accuse people of saying things they didn't say.

The PP never said the crying baby was rude. She said THE PARENTS were rude to put the baby on the flight... this is based on the baby's past behavior.

It doesn't take much to guess the baby would be screaming during the flight. Then they make the situation worse by keeping the baby from the one person who CAN sooth her... the mother.

I am all for flying with kids, even infants. But the choice these parents made was the wrong one.

 

[maxiesmom]

Might I suggest you go back and read some of the posts you've quoted? You accuse people of saying things they didn't say.

The PP never said the crying baby was rude. She said THE PARENTS were rude to put the baby on the flight... this is based on the baby's past behavior.

It doesn't take much to guess the baby would be screaming during the flight. Then they make the situation worse by keeping the baby from the one person who CAN sooth her... the mother.

I am all for flying with kids, even infants. But the choice these parents made was the wrong one.

Exactly.

 

[manhattanman]

Might I suggest you go back and read some of the posts you've quoted? You accuse people of saying things they didn't say.

The PP never said the crying baby was rude. She said THE PARENTS were rude to put the baby on the flight... this is based on the baby's past behavior.

It doesn't take much to guess the baby would be screaming during the flight. Then they make the situation worse by keeping the baby from the one person who CAN sooth her... the mother.

I am all for flying with kids, even infants. But the choice these parents made was the wrong one.

So if the parents had an angellic kid who never ever made a whisper for 11 and a half of the kids first 12 months of life and she gets on the plane and wails the entire time, how does this materially change what people have to experience.
Would the aggrieved take solace in the fact that it was so out of character ?

Making suppositions of the parents intentions in order to denounce them as "wrong" seems a little judgmental, don't you think? Because someone makes a decision different than you would in a similar situation does not defacto make it wrong. People make concessions all the time but in the choice between being empathic or judgmental, it appears the latter is a popular choice.

 

[ZoeBell]

Might I suggest you go back and read some of the posts you've quoted? You accuse people of saying things they didn't say.

The PP never said the crying baby was rude. She said THE PARENTS were rude to put the baby on the flight... this is based on the baby's past behavior.

It doesn't take much to guess the baby would be screaming during the flight. Then they make the situation worse by keeping the baby from the one person who CAN sooth her... the mother.

I am all for flying with kids, even infants. But the choice these parents made was the wrong one.

THESE parent could be rude. But this thread is painting with a broad stroke and implicating all parents and all crying kids. What if the Grandmother didn't tell the kid's history? Would you have had more sympathy for a kid you just thought was scared or cranky? Going by this thread I'd say no. You'd just say they parents are rude and can't/won't control their kid.

 

[sam_gordon]

THESE parent could be rude. But this thread is painting with a broad stroke and implicating all parents and all crying kids. What if the Grandmother didn't tell the kid's history? Would you have had more sympathy for a kid you just thought was scared or cranky? Going by this thread I'd say no. You'd just say they parents are rude and can't/won't control their kid.

I call BS on the bolded. Everything I have read has been specifically about the situation presented by a PP. I also never said the parents can't/won't control their child. Please don't put words in my mouth.

And yes... if the grandmother had kept her mouth shut about the child's history, I'd be more forgiving. But to me, the history DOES matter.

 

[North of Mouse]

( because I m sure your kids are absolute angels who never, ever did anything similar).

This is what I quoted of yours that gets slammed to parents that actually do control their children instead of letting them annoy and disturb others. Yes, they can be taught (before age 3 even) not to have their way, throw tantrums and disturb others. It has to be consistently taught at home though, not wait until you are in public. They are great learners, and much smarter than a lot of parents that let them lead them around - instead of the parents being the parents. And no, that doesn't mean we have perfect children, we aren't perfect parents, but we do nip a lot of bad behaviors in the bud before it gets out of hand.

 

[manhattanman]

This is what I quoted of yours that gets slammed to parents that actually do control their children instead of letting them annoy and disturb others. Yes, they can be taught (before age 3 even) not to have their way, throw tantrums and disturb others. It has to be consistently taught at home though, not wait until you are in public. They are great learners, and much smarter than a lot of parents that let them lead them around - instead of the parents being the parents. And no, that doesn't mean we have perfect children, we aren't perfect parents, but we do nip a lot of bad behaviors in the bud before it gets out of hand.

Good for you, but everyone else gets to make that decision for themselves. And I don't doubt that you can modify children's behavior while they are young, I've seen more than my fare share of kids spirit broken in the name of conformity. I don't doubt it can be done, I question the value of breaking a kid the way you break a horse to get them to heel.

And to the point, I'm fantastically interested how you would impose your will on a one year old to behave better. How precisely would you do this?

 

[Gina-Gina-Bo-Bina]

This is what I quoted of yours that gets slammed to parents that actually do control their children instead of letting them annoy and disturb others. Yes, they can be taught (before age 3 even) not to have their way, throw tantrums and disturb others. It has to be consistently taught at home though, not wait until you are in public. They are great learners, and much smarter than a lot of parents that let them lead them around - instead of the parents being the parents. And no, that doesn't mean we have perfect children, we aren't perfect parents, but we do nip a lot of bad behaviors in the bud before it gets out of hand.

Amen!!!

Good for you, but everyone else gets to make that decision for themselves. And I don't doubt that you can modify children's behavior while they are young, I've seen more than my fare share of kids spirit broken in the name of conformity. I don't doubt it can be done, I question the value of breaking a kid the way you break a horse to get them to heel.

Why are you assuming that anyone that disciplines and corrects their child does so in a way that is mean or harmful? Behaviour modification can be accomplished in very positive ways.

I have been reading this entire thread with a great deal of interest. What an eye opener into different parenting expectations.

 

[manhattanman]

Amen!!!



Why are you assuming that anyone that disciplines and corrects their child does so in a way that is mean or harmful? Behaviour modification can be accomplished in very positive ways.

I have been reading this entire thread with a great deal of interest. What an eye opener into different parenting expectations.

I'm not assuming anything, I am seriously interested in how an adult can convince a one year old that their current disposition is unnaceptable and must change. I know one way that this can be accomplished, I just want to know if this is what is being recommended.

 

[North of Mouse]

Good for you, but everyone else gets to make that decision for themselves. And I don't doubt that you can modify children's behavior while they are young, I've seen more than my fare share of kids spirit broken in the name of conformity. I don't doubt it can be done, I question the value of breaking a kid the way you break a horse to get them to heel.

And to the point, I'm fantastically interested how you would impose your will on a one year old to behave better. How precisely would you do this?

You have twisted all your replies to posts to suit your own ideas of what rearing children should be. I wonder if you even have/had children or have experienced teaching a child to obey and respect others at a young age - "breaking a kid's spirit like breaking a horse" - what nonsense! (actually the OP's child was 3, not one).

I guess your way is just to let them run wild and rough shod because they are children, right. I actually think that they have parents to "teach" them what they need to learn in life to fit into society and be productive citizens - you can't wait until they are grown.

Actually, as many times as I've quoted what you say about parents that have well behaved children, you have yet to say *why* you said that

 

[manhattanman]

You have twisted all your replies to posts to suit your own ideas of what rearing children should be. I wonder if you even have/had children or have experienced teaching a child to obey and respect others at a young age - "breaking a kid's spirit like breaking a horse" - what nonsense! (actually the OP's child was 3, not one).

I guess your way is just to let them run wild and rough shod because they are children, right. I actually think that they have parents to "teach" them what they need to learn in life to fit into society and be productive citizens - you can't wait until they are grown.

Actually, as many times as I've quoted what you say about parents that have well behaved children, you have yet to say *why* you said that

Again, one year old. Inconsolable. You do what to get them to learn that is is unnaceptable ? I'm seriously interested.

 

[North of Mouse]

Amen!!!



Why are you assuming that anyone that disciplines and corrects their child does so in a way that is mean or harmful? Behaviour modification can be accomplished in very positive ways.

I have been reading this entire thread with a great deal of interest. What an eye opener into different parenting expectations.

Thank you! Some people just want to intentionally not understand - no desire to be logical in their thinking, or replies to others' posts.

 

[DVC Daisy]

Again, one year old. Inconsolable. You do what to get them to learn that is is unnaceptable ? I'm seriously interested.

really? I have to assume that you either

1. (I desperately hope) do not have kids, or

2. are one of the parenting types who think, she is ONLY 1, 2, 3, etc. and therefore think that whatever they do is out of the parents control.

One year old children are so awesome . They have learned a language. They can usually verbalize quite a few words, and almost certainly know "yes" and "no". If they are not walking, they will be soon. Some run. They can communicate, if not through short sentences, then in non-verbal ways. They can understand many cause & effect concepts. They are learning sponges at that age! What they have accomplished by age one it an absolute miracle.

As a parent you absolutely CAN teach a one year old what is acceptable & unacceptable behavior as well as have an entire bag of tricks up your sleeve if a situation arises that is unexpected. All in a loving, positive way. Actually, it is your JOB to do so!

By saying that you cannot teach a one year old acceptable behavior, or making sure that you have ways around a situation because they "are only one", you are also proposing that a one year old cannot learn not to touch a hot stove? A parent has no control when a child that age is around the stove to make sure they do not get burned?

It all come down to parenting, actual parenting. It starts as soon as you bring them home from the hospital, way before they ever board that plane at one.

 

[DVC Daisy]

I raised 3 children (so all were three at one time), and yes, we flew, but we *never* let them disrupt others lives. Were they perfect? Absolutely not, but with *consistent* discipline (not beatings, or abuse as some would love to call it) they learned their boundaries and what was expected of them. In fact, we usually didn't have to raise our voices, because we didn't throw out empty threats, but our *no* and *yes* meant just that.

They were happy children because they had boundaries and lots of love and interactions from us. They were not brow beaten.

Sorry, but I can't see the OP never had any problems with her child not wanting to ride in a car seat, or ride in a shopping cart, or whatever situation that required her to be restrained and behave herself. So, before her first plane ride she would have had a *clue* on what her behavior might be.

Also 2 kicks (the OP's words) would *not* make someone call over a FA. Would love to have the woman's *take* on this as well. Seems like from what the OP herself said that this was a *constant*. Why else fight with holding down her legs to *keep* her from kicking the seat??

And for those that say a 3 year old is not responsible or can not comprehend - sorry, from experience I will not buy that - if they are consistently shown their behavior they do know right from wrong.

Just coming back for WDW and being around so many children that the parents would not control, I wish I could have a $1 for all the *empty* threats and consequences given to children that the parent and child *knew* would not be carried out. Like one parent - "If you throw your new stuffed animal on the ground one more time, I'm returning it back to the gift shop" Duh! She did it, glaring at the mother who looked away. Another often heard, "If you don't quit whining, throwing a fit, we're going back to the hotel, right now." Duh, another empty threat!

Sorry, this is long, but I get sick and tired of children being excused for terrible behavior that's the parents fault.

So, no, I will not tolerate being kicked in the seat constantly on a long flight.

OP doesn't say anywhere that the woman *yelled* or *sneered* at her child as some have said. A *glare* is a hard look, and I've done that a few times in *ride lines* when I've been constantly bumped, kicked while the parents ignore, and most of the time the child quits - I tolerate it a long time and try to move out of the way, before the hard look though (this happened several times, but was especially bad with three girls about 4,6,8 in the TSM line. The Mom and g'mother were having a great time talking and ignoring them.

Agree, agree, agree. With all of the above.

 

[manhattanman]

really? I have to assume that you either

1. (I desperately hope) do not have kids, or

2. are one of the parenting types who think, she is ONLY 1, 2, 3, etc. and therefore think that whatever they do is out of the parents control.

One year old children are so awesome . They have learned a language. They can usually verbalize quite a few words, and almost certainly know "yes" and "no". If they are not walking, they will be soon. Some run. They can communicate, if not through short sentences, then in non-verbal ways. They can understand many cause & effect concepts. They are learning sponges at that age! What they have accomplished by age one it an absolute miracle.

As a parent you absolutely CAN teach a one year old what is acceptable & unacceptable behavior as well as have an entire bag of tricks up your sleeve if a situation arises that is unexpected. All in a loving, positive way. Actually, it is your JOB to do so!

By saying that you cannot teach a one year old acceptable behavior, or making sure that you have ways around a situation because they "are only one", you are also proposing that a one year old cannot learn not to touch a hot stove? A parent has no control when a child that age is around the stove to make sure they do not get burned?

It all come down to parenting, actual parenting. It starts as soon as you bring them home from the hospital, way before they ever board that plane at one.

More assumptions, nice,

I have two wonderfully adjusted kids who don't run wild and do what they want at all times.

I hope that people who view their children as chattel would refrain from having more children. And I'm done because

A). I have no interest in debating parenting techniques with someone I dont know

B) I'm less inclined to take unsolicited advice from these same people who think they can evaluate my suitability as a patent fom a discussion board.


Out

 

[DVC Daisy]

More assumptions, nice,

I have two wonderfully adjusted kids who don't run wild and do what they want at all times.

I hope that people who view their children as chattel would refrain from having more children. And I'm done because

A). I have no interest in debating parenting techniques with someone I dont know

B) I'm less inclined to take unsolicited advice from these same people who think they can evaluate my suitability as a patent fom a discussion board.


Out

Oh dear. Wow. Well then

I do applaud you that you have two wonderful, well behaved children, I mean wonderfully ADJUSTED children, that did not have behavior modification as part of their parenting, and at one, were well, dunno, "only one"

Anyway, I know I am late to the party but who on earth view their children as chattel??? I seriously missed some posts!