So, let's assume FP+ doesn't come back in its old form

[Miffy]

Here I fixed it: Disney thinks they can take things away and people will still come. They think they can keep the prices high and people will still come.

But that was the way they used to think before the pandemic.



Remember after 9/11, it took several years before Disney got their crowds back. They had to resort to giving deep discounts, free dining, new magical express, etc... I think it was faster for the country to bounce back because it was one horrible event that basically paralyzed the travel industry.
Covid-19 is a different beast. It kept the parks closed for months, millions of people lost their jobs, savings, homes, and damage has been done to a lot of industries. So, it will take years for the country to bounce back.

People need to stop looking at the stock market and think the economy is fine. They look at their savings and 401K and think that they have the money to go back to Disney as soon as the pandemic is over. Well, more than half of Americans do not have any stocks or care about what happens to the stock market. They just see their own bank account and credit card limits and decide on going to Disney. If they don't have jobs or barely back to working, then it would be a while before Disney can get their crowds back.

Of course I am not an economist, well, I don't think any of us are on this thread. Corporations make mistakes and eventually will figure it out. In the meantime, let's hope Disney doesn't crash and burn like a lot of companies that made bad decisions.

I don't have the answer for any of these things, and your points are well made.

But this is different from 9/11. People were afraid to travel after 9/11, and particularly afraid of airplane travel. There was a looming threat that no vaccine or reassurance could assuage. I went to London on 10/11--the trip had been booked before 9/11--and I held my breath and went. Being on two transatlantic flights (there and back) was nerve-racking. There were just about no tourists at all in London. I mean not Americans, not Europeans, not Asians--no one.

Here we are, right now, in the midst of a pandemic that has hardly subsided, and I keep reading on the DIS that, for example, DHS is crowded, especially in the mornings. And this is at a lowered capacity. So even right at this very moment, there are enough people willing to go to a theme park despite any possible health risk. When there's little to no health risk? The crowds are going to come back. Middle-class people with jobs that translated well to working from home are going to be happy to go back to WDW. Europeans and Canadians, once restrictions are lifted and people are vaccinated, are going to travel to WDW. And there are a lot of people who kept their jobs and haven't traveled at all for a year--and who knows how much longer until things feel safe? These people are going to WDW.

Meanwhile, the discounts they're offering right now aren't exactly mind-blowing. Right now, when many people are either prevented from traveling or are unwilling to do so.

However, I don't know what's going to happen. If I did, I'd have a new career!

 

[Sarahslay]

I think you may be pleasantly surprised at how much less stressful it is at the parks without worrying about FP all the time. Especially in May when the crowds shouldn't be that bad.

We've been back twice since they dropped FP and have no complaints. Granted the lines look long due to social distancing requirements, but we found we were on and off most rides in less than 30 minutes, even though the posted timed were much longer. It was nice to be at the parks without seeing everyone with their face in their phone all day trying to grab their next FP. Much more enjoyable. I hope you will agree.

I've been back three times since opening and haven't missed FP at all. So much less stressful, and the lines move so much faster without that sudden stop to let all the FP people ahead of you. Of course there are still the DAS people (which we are when my youngest is with us), but those aren't as frequent. I loved not having to go "well, our FP is in half an hour so we can't do that", now it's "why not" and we do what we want.

 

[JakeAZ]

The worst part of FP, IMO, was the rigid time schedules they were based on.

If they do go to a paid version, I hope there is an included option for "anytime" use. Day specific would be fine.

 

[JakeAZ]

Here we are, right now, in the midst of a pandemic that has hardly subsided, and I keep reading on the DIS that, for example, DHS is crowded, especially in the mornings. And this is at a lowered capacity. So even right at this very moment, there are enough people willing to go to a theme park despite any possible health risk. When there's little to no health risk? The crowds are going to come back. Middle-class people with jobs that translated well to working from home are going to be happy to go back to WDW. Europeans and Canadians, once restrictions are lifted and people are vaccinated, are going to travel to WDW. And there are a lot of people who kept their jobs and haven't traveled at all for a year--and who knows how much longer until things feel safe? These people are going to WDW.

Excellent points!

People, myself included, can't wait to get back out there. Every canceled trip I had on the books in 2020 has been re-booked for later in 2021.

"revenge travel" is a term I heard it's being called.

 

[GoingSince1990]

I would be very surprised if Disney subjected itself to the onslaught of "Disney is being SO GREEDY" headlines and negative publicity that would result from eliminating the three "free" (meaning, included in the park ticket cost) FPs per person. I expect the system to return very much in its previous form. Now that EMH has been abolished I wouldn't be surprised to see an expansion of paid EMM early access which along with the various types of "tour" are a lucrative way for Disney to monetize FP access in a way that's more subtle than going full paid FP.

 

[disneypharm]

W

I don't have the answer for any of these things, and your points are well made.

But this is different from 9/11. People were afraid to travel after 9/11, and particularly afraid of airplane travel. There was a looming threat that no vaccine or reassurance could assuage. I went to London on 10/11--the trip had been booked before 9/11--and I held my breath and went. Being on two transatlantic flights (there and back) was nerve-racking. There were just about no tourists at all in London. I mean not Americans, not Europeans, not Asians--no one.

Here we are, right now, in the midst of a pandemic that has hardly subsided, and I keep reading on the DIS that, for example, DHS is crowded, especially in the mornings. And this is at a lowered capacity. So even right at this very moment, there are enough people willing to go to a theme park despite any possible health risk. When there's little to no health risk? The crowds are going to come back. Middle-class people with jobs that translated well to working from home are going to be happy to go back to WDW. Europeans and Canadians, once restrictions are lifted and people are vaccinated, are going to travel to WDW. And there are a lot of people who kept their jobs and haven't traveled at all for a year--and who knows how much longer until things feel safe? These people are going to WDW.

Meanwhile, the discounts they're offering right now aren't exactly mind-blowing. Right now, when many people are either prevented from traveling or are unwilling to do so.

However, I don't know what's going to happen. If I did, I'd have a new career!

Yes, parks are crowded but nothing like they used to be. I assume the vast majority of those people are AP holders (mostly locals) and DVC owners that they need to use their points. We need to see resort occupancy rates. Many resorts are still closed. AP holders are not the big spenders. Disney is losing a lot of money on those. I doubt that Disney feel that they can be profitable like they used to with just AP holders and DVC owners. We have a reservation for June but most likely will be canceling it because of all the reasons posted in another thread (what gets you to come back) on these boards.

I would love to go back to what Disney used to be like pre-pandemic, but I have a feeling it would be some time in late 2022. Like it was discussed in yet another thread about DME, many people will decide to rent a car and get out of the Disney bubble. That would also cut on Disney's profit.

 

[Grasshopper2016]

Here's a prediction (virtually guaranteed to be wrong):

(1) 3 Free fastpasses per day included in the price of every ticket. Can be booked in advance, with a head start for on site guests, and with tiers in some parks. Just like before.

(2) Extra free fastpasses for on-site guests: 1 for value, 2 for moderate, 3 for deluxe. Maybe even 4 for club level. Can be booked in advance. Will also be tier limits on how you can use them.

(3) Extra fastpasses available to everyone for advanced purchase. (Supplies probably limited. Perhaps on site guests will be given the opportunity to book them first.)
I could see this taking any number of forms, including different packages of various rides (like some of the foreign parks sell), additional regular fastpasses, and/or additional anytime fastpasses. I suspect that, whatever form they take, they will be very expensive. Can be booked in advance.

(4) Spur-of-the-moment, good-for-the-next-hour fastpasses offered for sale on the Genie app to everyone, on a ride-by-ride basis, based on current waits and demand. Price will vary by ride and demand. Might be $5 for Small World on an uncrowded day (where the standby line is 20 minutes); might be $50 for FOP when the standby line is 120 minutes. Will often not be available at all.

(5) No more free same-day fastpasses after you have used all of your pre-booked ones.

 

[fly girl]

Fair point.

I could be wrong, but I don't see that system coming to WDW. Maxpass doesn't fix anything. $20 extra pp per day will just be seen as a required extra, when you're already investing so much into a WDW vacation. I actually see this rubbing more people the wrong way over something similar to the CL FP offering. You didn't have to buy the CL passes, but if everyone feels they have to pay another $20pp per day, just to get to the bare minimum level....

I see FP packages coming.

Pricing / offerings dependent on the level of accommodations selected.

With more people questioning whether the on-site benefits are worth it or not, this is a 100% foolproof way to get people to continue staying on-site.

It doesn't have to be a required extra if they still have what DLR has with free old school FP system. You'd still get FP's for free, you just have to obtain FP from kiosks by the ride. Now, do they still have those old ticket booths for traditional FP's for WDW in the warehouses before FP+ was rolled out? Could they just use the kiosks for FP+ now? Who knows, but I can see them adding MaxPass along with traditional old school FP's like DLR. It isn't a required extra because you can still get FP's the old fashioned way for free.

 

[disneygirlsng]

NAILED IT!! I know how to work FP+, I know all about the refresh button and booking my FP+ rides early as I can. Still disliked it because: a) I can ride the 3 initial rides faster getting MaxPass one at a time on my app versus the 3 hour time frame for FP+. And b) we are a last minute trip family. We don’t work M-F/9-5 jobs, we plan our trips when we get our schedules which is one month prior. Good luck getting a hard to get FP+ ride (FOP, MMRR, SDD) a week prior - let alone a morning FP+ which we want. Sure, I have been lucky enough to score one a week out, by stalking the app for hours on end.

I’d much rather go to MaxPass/FastPass system DLR has. You can’t get a FP until you’ve been in a park. None of this 60/30 days prior bologna.





I think PP was referring to the DLR price of MaxPass which is $20 per day, per person.

I've had no problems getting through my first 3 FPs within 1-1.5 hours of the first one starting using refresh. You don't need to wait 3 hours. I've also had no problems getting any ride we wanted day of, meaning that last minute trips were never an issue for us. I would much, much, much rather know I have 3 rides that I want ahead of time before walking into the park. Waiting until the day of at DLR made me so stressed. I'd pick FP+ over Maxpass every single time, without hesitation.

 

[Evita_W]

I know the OP said they don't want Maxpass, but honestly, it is a far better system. Perhaps allow onsite guests the ability to book two FPs at a time and be able to book the first two FPs before arriving at the park, but only at the park for which they have a reservation for?

Those are the only modifications I could see being made to the system, but I would think Disney would want a unified FP system moving forward and it is much fairer to make it based off when the next window of time is available. FP+ and booking months in advance is unacceptable, a lot of people don't want to plan out every minute of their day like that.

 

[fly girl]

I've had no problems getting through my first 3 FPs within 1-1.5 hours of the first one starting using refresh. You don't need to wait 3 hours. I've also had no problems getting any ride we wanted day of, meaning that last minute trips were never an issue for us. I would much, much, much rather know I have 3 rides that I want ahead of time before walking into the park. Waiting until the day of at DLR made me so stressed. I'd pick FP+ over Maxpass every single time, without hesitation.

We will have to agree to disagree on this.

So you are telling me you got FOP and SDD before noon on a trip you planned at most 14 days out without having to work to get it? If you you have been absolutely incredibly lucky. Even day of I was not able to score FOP on one trip, and I was refreshing that thing every chance I got.

Never going to see eye to eye on this one, and that is ok. It's what makes the world go around.

I would do the exact opposite, choose MaxPass over FP+ every single time. If you are a family that doesn't have the luxury to plan your WDW trip months in advance you are struggling to get good FP+ rides without a lot of work. MaxPass was a breath of fresh air fo us.

 

[JakeAZ]

It doesn't have to be a required extra if they still have what DLR has with free old school FP system. You'd still get FP's for free, you just have to obtain FP from kiosks by the ride. Now, do they still have those old ticket booths for traditional FP's for WDW in the warehouses before FP+ was rolled out? Could they just use the kiosks for FP+ now? Who knows, but I can see them adding MaxPass along with traditional old school FP's like DLR. It isn't a required extra because you can still get FP's the old fashioned way for free.

I like your optimism, but I would put it at less than zero that WDW is going to install kiosks again. Everything is going to your phone. They've been very transparent about this.

Here's the thing about WDW. It can't really be a secret, right?

They love the locals and people who make multiple trips per year. You guys pays the bills and they appreciate that. However, the profit is generated by what they really want.

Many years ago, WDW transitioned into wanting affluent out of state / country visitors who will spare no expense, because they won't be back for quite some time. Desert parties weren't designed for locals. VIP tours weren't designed for the family that goes all the time. $200 lightsabers are not for repeat visitors. Halloween parties, Christmas parties, After Hours, Early paid hours (forgot the name haha) are geared towards people who are just there for a limited time.

If they can get these "one in a lifetime" visitors to shell out a decent chunk of money to guarantee rides, they are going to do it.

Now, I'm not naive enough to think they won't introduce some type of system to make sure their loyal guests have something to count on, but I just have a hard time believing it will be anywhere near the current FP system. That system did not generate revenue.

Even though they can't introduce a system like Express Pass, they have to have been extremely jealous of how successful it is. Universal can command more than the price of an entrance ticket for that product. It's an extremely easy way to sell the park twice.

Of course I could be wrong and have been many times in my life. Just ask my wife! haha

But it would almost be business malpractice to not use the current situation to overhaul FP to generate massive revenue year in / year out. Sure, there will be short term complaining, but then it's there forever.

Just my two cents.

Edit: Also, the Star Wars Starship resort...

 

[chris benton]

We will have to agree to disagree on this.

So you are telling me you got FOP and SDD before noon on a trip you planned at most 14 days out without having to work to get it? If you you have been absolutely incredibly lucky. Even day of I was not able to score FOP on one trip, and I was refreshing that thing every chance I got.

Never going to see eye to eye on this one, and that is ok. It's what makes the world go around.

I would do the exact opposite, choose MaxPass over FP+ every single time. If you are a family that doesn't have the luxury to plan your WDW trip months in advance you are struggling to get good FP+ rides without a lot of work. MaxPass was a breath of fresh air fo us.

If you still gave Walt your money, that's all they need to know they are doing things correctly. It's crude, indeed, but at some level it's very true. According to Walt, you were happy to visit.

Walt's been printing money for a looooong time. And in recent times, they've been actively squeezing us more and more, trying to find the tipping point of the pocket lining profit / guest drop-off (and other revenue stream) "see-saw". I don't think they've found it yet, even in a global pandemic. I'd be willing to bet that if we can get back to some semblance of normality, everyone chomping at the bit to go back will splurge. In Walt's eyes, that means they are doing it correctly.

I kinda think there are more people than we think, that just show up with a hotel reservation and a ticket, and go to a park and just grab a map and wing it, so none of this stuff really matters to them. WDW is just spending money of merch, buffets, and standing in lines, and that's just what it is. "What's a Fastpass? We can't afford those things!"

 

[fly girl]

I like your optimism, but I would put it at less than zero that WDW is going to install kiosks again. Everything is going to your phone. They've been very transparent about this.

Here's the thing about WDW. It can't really be a secret, right?

They love the locals and people who make multiple trips per year. You guys pays the bills and they appreciate that. However, the profit is generated by what they really want.

Many years ago, WDW transitioned into wanting affluent out of state / country visitors who will spare no expense, because they won't be back for quite some time. Desert parties weren't designed for locals. VIP tours weren't designed for the family that goes all the time. $200 lightsabers are not for repeat visitors. Halloween parties, Christmas parties, After Hours, Early paid hours (forgot the name haha) are geared towards people who are just there for a limited time.

If they can get these "one in a lifetime" visitors to shell out a decent chunk of money to guarantee rides, they are going to do it.

Now, I'm not naive enough to think they won't introduce some type of system to make sure their loyal guests have something to count on, but I just have a hard time believing it will be anywhere near the current FP system. That system did not generate revenue.

Even though they can't introduce a system like Express Pass, they have to have been extremely jealous of how successful it is. Universal can command more than the price of an entrance ticket for that product. It's an extremely easy way to sell the park twice.

Of course I could be wrong and have been many times in my life. Just ask my wife! haha

But it would almost be business malpractice to not use the current situation to overhaul FP to generate massive revenue year in / year out. Sure, there will be short term complaining, but then it's there forever.

Just my two cents.

Edit: Also, the Star Wars Starship resort...

I don't pay their bills with military salutes tickets and discounts. Ha ha ha, far from it. Yes, we still give them our money. Can't deny that. But our money is chump change to them.

They have the kiosks now for FP+. They can just use those for the FP like they do at DLR. MaxPass will be the premium product that people will want and pay for. I know I did. Why traipse all around Disneyland and Cali Adventure for FP's when I can do it on my phone! Voila. And just like that, they got our $60 a day for my family of 3. If you don't want to spend the money the alternate option is there. That is how they can get around people feeling that Disney is pushing it too far with price gouging. (yeah, I know that last sentence is absolutely laughable, but you get my gist.)

Obviously, you can tell I like MaxPass. I do. But I do think they should still have a product for those who don't want to pay a premium. I would love to know the numbers at how MaxPass has generated revenue for DLR. If the margins are good, and I bet they are, then I can see them implementing something like it in WDW. Will it be exactly the same? Unlikely. (no way are they adding the photo package in like DLR. NO WAY!)

If you still gave Walt your money, that's all they need to know they are doing things correctly. It's crude, indeed, but at some level it's very true. According to Walt, you were happy to visit.

Walt's been printing money for a looooong time. And in recent times, they've been actively squeezing us more and more, trying to find the tipping point of the pocket lining profit / guest drop-off (and other revenue stream) "see-saw". I don't think they've found it yet, even in a global pandemic. I'd be willing to bet that if we can get back to some semblance of normality, everyone chomping at the bit to go back will splurge. In Walt's eyes, that means they are doing it correctly.

I kinda think there are more people than we think, that just show up with a hotel reservation and a ticket, and go to a park and just grab a map and wing it, so none of this stuff really matters to them. WDW is just spending money of merch, buffets, and standing in lines, and that's just what it is. "What's a Fastpass? We can't afford those things!"

I don't understand why you quoted me? I have no issue with those who like FP+. You are just as welcome to your opinion as I have mine.

Of course I still gave Walt my money. Never denied that. I don't like FP+ but I didn't hate it enough to quit going. Did we switch our vacation plans to DLR over WDW more than once ... we sure did!

And heck yeah Disney has been tweaking the fine line of seeing how much they can take away and still have us coming. Ugh, all you need to say is one word, CHAPEK!

 

[pigletgirl]

I think how ROTR is now, is whats to come for hot ticket rides in WDW. The question is, how do you disperse everyone waiting for their timed FOP reservation? I'm most likely completely wrong. We will see.

 

[JakeAZ]

They have the kiosks now for FP+. They can just use those for the FP like they do at DLR. MaxPass will be the premium product that people will want and pay for. I know I did. Why traipse all around Disneyland and Cali Adventure for FP's when I can do it on my phone! Voila. And just like that, they got our $60 a day for my family of 3. If you don't want to spend the money the alternate option is there. That is how they can get around people feeling that Disney is pushing it too far with price gouging. (yeah, I know that last sentence is absolutely laughable, but you get my gist.)

Obviously, you can tell I like MaxPass. I do. But I do think they should still have a product for those who don't want to pay a premium. I would love to know the numbers at how MaxPass has generated revenue for DLR. If the margins are good, and I bet they are, then I can see them implementing something like it in WDW. Will it be exactly the same? Unlikely. (no way are they adding the photo package in like DLR. NO WAY!)

I think the reason Max Pass works for DL is they took the existing system, added it into their app and with very little overhead, they created a great income stream.

The Max Pass system is night and day from the WDW FP+ system. The only thing they share is both being in the app.

People spend thousands / sometimes tens of thousands on their WDW trip. I think there needs to be a system that allows some aspect of advanced ride planning OR the ability to have X number of anytime FPs for flexibility.

I just don't see WDW introducing a system where you pay a premium to participate in the Hawaii pool chair rush each morning. They've already made it so you dont' have to tap in for ROTR anymore. They had to make tweaks to that ongoing nightmare. More are sure to come, but it wasn't sustainable.

Again, WDW knows guests will pay a premium for convenience. FP is the only thing in the park they have failed to truly capitalize on. And rides are by far their most valuable asset.

 

[fly girl]

I think the reason Max Pass works for DL is they took the existing system, added it into their app and with very little overhead, they created a great income stream.

The Max Pass system is night and day from the WDW FP+ system. The only thing they share is both being in the app.

People spend thousands / sometimes tens of thousands on their WDW trip. I think there needs to be a system that allows some aspect of advanced ride planning OR the ability to have X number of anytime FPs for flexibility.

I just don't see WDW introducing a system where you pay a premium to participate in the Hawaii pool chair rush each morning. They've already made it so you dont' have to tap in for ROTR anymore. They had to make tweaks to that ongoing nightmare. More are sure to come, but it wasn't sustainable.

Again, WDW knows guests will pay a premium for convenience. FP is the only thing in the park they have failed to truly capitalize on. And rides are by far their most valuable asset.

That is a fabulous point about ROTR and Hawaii pool chair rush (lol, great analogy.)

My guess is it will be somewhere in-between the two, giving on site guests an added perk because good gravy they have, or are taking, every possible perk away right now. Maybe on-site can book without park entry. It is all a guessing game.

I would've never conjured up FP+ so what does my pea brain know. Absolutely nothing. But I sincerely hope I won't be longing for the old FP+ of yore when they come up with whatever they are going to come up with.

 

[keishashadow]

DL is a different beast. It caters to locals and shorter trips. WDW, on the other hand, is a destination people plan for / save for years in advance. It shouldn't come down to the early bird gets the worm.

Why not? Disney is a business, currently cash starved (other than Disney +). They answer to their stockholders & will most certainly charge what the market will bear going forward.

Expect more enticing special & pricey enhancements as things normalize. As long as their product standards remain high for all the guests, it’s acceptable IMO

Without selling new APs at DL, their new demographic may wind up being quite different than that of the past ‘local’s park’.

When we head across the nation to DL, we stay at least 5 days. Typically, stop in Vegas & it’s at least a full week of vacation. Going to guess most who put in the effort to get there, from any distance, don’t elect to do a long weekend.

We love max pass! Took us a minute to figure it out Did like the old system of gathering handfuls of FP better lol.

we changed our trip from WDW to DL the August SW opened. Reviews were that DLs version of was running smoothly. Check! Found a sale priced flight and had a nice time at a Great wolf lodge. The GD still talks about the flow rider

We are fortunate to have bought DVC that covers at least 2/3rds of our usual WDW trips. Factor in a discounted AP, short/cheap flights from our northern market & renting a car (to be able to dine reasonably offsite for many meals) & the overall cost averages out for us. Well, thus far, who know how travel components may change

I did wind up hotwiring pop last Oct for half of what the APH rate was. Something I’ve done frequently there & at swan over the years

Even if visiting once a year or thrice, it depends on how one decides to ‘do WDW’ as to their bottom line. Many have strived to figure out how to do more frequent trips, making concessions to more realistically fit their travel budgets (me).

When the dust does settle, I wouldn’t be surprised to see WDW sell an enhanced FP, limited in number daily. Perhaps they will even offer a wildly expensive, all-inclusive ROTR guarantee. Nothing I’d be clamoring to purchase but I wouldn’t begrudge those who felt it was right for them either

 

[JakeAZ]

Why not?

Mainly because there is more than just the parks at WDW. Golf, water parks, mini golf, Disney Springs, tons more restaurants, etc. Also, some people would rather close a park down than open one up.

I could see day where you sleep in a bit after closing down a park the previous night. Have a late breakfast and then head over a water park. Come back to your hotel and then head out to MK for an early dinner to close the park down again. But because you weren't there in the AM for the FP scramble, all that is left, if anything, are the lower tier rides.

DL is built for first come first serve. The parks and rides are the only reason people visit.

I am absolutely fine with those that want to get there at rope drop having the park to themselves for awhile. I prefer the same thing on a late night.

One specific style of touring shouldn't be favored when it comes to the most valuable commodity WDW offers.

 

[disneygirlsng]

We will have to agree to disagree on this.

So you are telling me you got FOP and SDD before noon on a trip you planned at most 14 days out without having to work to get it? If you you have been absolutely incredibly lucky. Even day of I was not able to score FOP on one trip, and I was refreshing that thing every chance I got.

Never going to see eye to eye on this one, and that is ok. It's what makes the world go around.

I would do the exact opposite, choose MaxPass over FP+ every single time. If you are a family that doesn't have the luxury to plan your WDW trip months in advance you are struggling to get good FP+ rides without a lot of work. MaxPass was a breath of fresh air fo us.

Yep, multiple times for FOP. Only have had one trip that was planned short notice since SDD opened. Booked it 3 weeks out, spent about 5-10 minutes or less a day and got one about 2 weeks out. Not much work imo.
Either way, those rides were typically very easy to get same day, especially if you knew when the FP drops were. Which would work like Maxpass, but free.
But (unrelated) I would take Maxpass over the original FP system any day, that was awful.