S/O What is middle class?

[DaisyJ]

I believe it was. You feel like the struggle to get a college education made you value it more. I get that. I also know some folks who struggled to go to college just as you did, and it had the exact opposite effect. They know how hard they had to work and don't want to put their children through the same struggle. To each his own as they say.

I know I am not going to change your mind. The whole intention of my original post was so that 18+ years from now, you would not be surprised by the cost of college and by how much the government expects a middle class parent to contribute. My job here is done.

You can lead a horse to water...

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

You can lead a horse to water...

Seriously enough.

 

[gina2000]

Read it and weep....

https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...h-of-working-your-way-through-college/359735/

 

[erc]

Read it and weep....

https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...h-of-working-your-way-through-college/359735/

Yep. So true. Unless you are talking community college. Which is a fine education and/or a fine start for many. In fact I took that route when transferring from a two-year school was just starting to become a thing.

And I don't really consider living on campus as "sleep-over camp". Some kids really need to be on their own and away from Mom and Dad, or they will continue to rely on them and never fully grow independent by the time they graduate.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Read it and weep....

https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...h-of-working-your-way-through-college/359735/

There are good points to that for sure. That's why it was spoken about several pages back about what you can do when you don't have the financial assistance. Things like going part-time, taking a year off, going to community college, taking longer time to graduate, etc. The article points to two things in its equation...work hrs and cost of education. It doesn't take into consideration what students do to make it work. It's like this entire thread. Statistics are great but they don't always give the full situation.

Also the information provided for the basis of the article is from a graduate student who got validation from Reddit users. True he put in the work to get other data but he's also speaking in regards to minimum wage (now granted a lot probably do get just minimum wage but that's the only data he looked at).

It also assumes the student goes into college having no savings whatsoever. Yeah I think anyone could argue you would be hardpressed to do a lot of things that are pricey in relative terms when you have no savings to start off with.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

And I don't really consider living on campus as "sleep-over camp". Some kids really need to be on their own and away from Mom and Dad, or they will continue to rely on them and never fully grow independent by the time they graduate.

Personal opinion here but I didn't get the vibe that the other poster meant living on campus is a sleep-over camp...

 

[erc]

I guess I just don't get it. If you could afford it, why would you let your children struggle to get a college education?

I do know families who share this minimal help outlook. Unfortunately one of them is my niece and she is imploding now. She was on track to be Valedictorian and I think she is rebelling against the pressure that her parents have placed on her that the only way should could possibly attend the schools (all well-regarded private schools) that she really wants to attend is to secure a full scholarship. I know not all kids will react like that, but that is one of the possible parenting challenges that many of us never foresaw when we first gazed upon that positive pregnancy stick all those years ago...

 

[gina2000]

The paper does indicate, though, that it has become increasingly difficult to pay for a traditional four year degree in what has always been considered a reasonable solution to minimal and/or non-existent parental contribution. The impact of spiraling post secondary costs cannot be ignored. The gap between tuition and minimum wage earning continues to widen rendering the time necessary to obtain a degree longer. Can it be done? Sure. Is it as easy as 10 years ago? It appears not. Speaking as a baby boomer who attended a top 25 university in the 70s with minimal parental contribution, the spread between tuition cost and expected earnings has widened so much that I doubt I could have achieved the same 4 year degree today. I graduated in four years with a reasonable amount of loans.

Each family has to decide what works best for all members. It's a compromise we all have to make.

In our case, we paid for our son's education. We would do it again in a heartbeat.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

The paper does indicate, though, that it has become increasingly difficult to pay for a traditional four year degree in what has always been considered a reasonable solution to minimal and/or non-existent parental contribution. The impact of spiraling post secondary costs cannot be ignored. The gap between tuition and minimum wage earning continues to widen rendering the time necessary to obtain a degree longer. Can it be done? Sure. Is it as easy as 10 years ago? It appears not. Speaking as a baby boomer who attended a top 25 university in the 70s with minimal parental contribution, the spread between tuition cost and expected earnings has widened so much that I doubt I could have achieved the same 4 year degree today. I graduated in four years with a reasonable amount of loans.

Each family has to decide what works best for all members. It's a compromise we all have to make.

In our case, we paid for our son's education. We would do it again in a heartbeat.

Well yes it absolutely has become increasingly difficult I don't think any one of us is disputing that. And yes each family has to decide what works best for all members. While the data I'm sure is still relevant (the article was from April 2014) there is an article from Nov 2016 discussing what a student can do if they find themselves needing to pay for all or most of their college:

~Pay for college with scholarships and grants: doesn't need explanation
~Pay for college by working while you attend: doesn't need explanation but the article does go on to explain various ways such as finding a decent enough job, for some it could be working summers, for others it could be working part-time during college, for others working full-time and doing college part-time, reviewing if your job has tuition assistance (a perk that can have limitations such as field of study, etc)
~Pay for college with student loans: doesn't need explanation but the article does go on to explain to be cautious how much money you take out and to understand the process as a whole
~Lower your tuition costs: i.e. choosing a college with lower tuition and overall costs (that doesn't mean you have to go with a subpar college at all), reviewing perks a college may give you for living in a certain area/distance, reviewing if there is a bank near where you'll be at that has perks, etc.
~Work on lowering your living expenses: i.e. consider things like roommates or living on a realistic budget, even live at home, etc.

Hey I don't have anything negative to say about you paying for your son's education it's a decision you made within your own family just as my family will be making decisions that work best for us.

A cautionary note from my sister (which isn't really related to your comments)..she decided she needed to go to an Ivy League school..she had a full ride from an in-state college that is on the top 100 schools for engineering..but she wanted a better school because her perception is that's what mattered and yeah the Ivy League school she wanted to go to was ranked better but it didn't make the in-state school subpar. She went to college on grants and scholarships. 1 1/2 years into it she switched her major to something completely different. Now my sister did have clinical depression so that plays a role in this story here but shortly after switching majors she was dismissed by the college and told not to come back until she could prove she had her depression under control. She never went back to the Ivy League school and she lost all that hard work and credits earned at that time because she owed the school a lot of money and because of that they wouldn't release her transcript. She ended up graduating from the Community College here with a degree in accounting but had to start from scratch because of the transcript issue. I'm assuming she had paid back the Ivy League school by now. This is all because in her mind she had to go to this school and other schools were beneath it.

 

[gina2000]

I think we can all anecdotally find reasons to support our views. My husband wasn't given a dime - not even a gas fill-from his parents and he earned 2 degrees. His take on it was that we would pay it all. I would have let our son assume his loans and pay them off because I did. The loan amount was very reasonable but my husband's experience definitely played a huge role in his desire to pay.

I would have moved heaven and earth to help pay for our son's education. My dad was out of work for 3 years during my college years and they were down to their last $100 when my dad went back to work. My parents paid what they could and never let me quit. They figured out how to make it a reality for me. And it was hard, I'm sure. That's probably why I felt that we would figure it out too. So I giess in the end it's where we come from with an eye on where we're going.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I think we can all anecdotally find reasons to support our views. My husband wasn't given a dime - not even a gas fill-from his parents and he earned 2 degrees. His take on it was that we would pay it all. I would have let our son assume his loans and pay them off because I did. The loan amount was very reasonable but my husband's experience definitely played a huge role in his desire to pay.

I would have moved heaven and earth to help pay for our son's education. My dad was out of work for 3 years during my college years and they were down to their last $100 when my dad went back to work. My parents paid what they could and never let me quit. They figured out how to make it a reality for me. And it was hard, I'm sure. That's probably why I felt that we would figure it out too. So I giess in the end it's where we come from with an eye on where we're going.

Which is why it's not a black and white right or wrong issue. I'm however, not going to tell you what you do with your son won't work what you do for your kids is wrong, etc

 

[erc]

Related to the original subject:

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...crisis-has-americas-highest-paid-feeling-poor

This can't be a new thing. I can remember talking with co-workers about the high housing prices in Silicon Valley in the late 90's as the dot-com boom was heating up. Unless I grew up in California, I would never want to live in California. Really what is the point of making a high salary when it still isn't enough? I make about $30K less than this guy but my 4-bedroom house on 4 acres only cost me $275K 4 years ago.

 

[arminnie]

I do not have children so take that into account.

But I never paid a dime of tuition as a student at two extremely high priced universities (Tulane and Stanford) - because I worked my tail off to earn scholarships. I did borrow money for room and board. My parents were poor - but there are merit scholarships out there for students willing to work hard.

For those that just are not able to do that what about just working and going to school part-time? My cousin who was not a good student in high school went back to school as a single mother and earned her degree. It took a long time but she did it. Going to college should be about getting an education not about sororities and fraternities and parties.

I was happy to borrow money. I do not think student loans are evil. But I lived extremely frugally when in college. I did not borrow money to live high on the hog and go on vacations. But in both cases my student loans were approximately 50% of my first year's salary out of school.

What I do not comprehend is why people think the FAFSA contributions are so off the wall. If you make a good salary why shouldn't you be expected to contribute to a child's education before they get need based aid? Need based aid should be for those outstanding students whose parents do not have the financial means to help - not for those whose parents just prefer to to spend their money elsewhere.

 

[Southernmiss]

I do not have children so take that into account.

But I never paid a dime of tuition as a student at two extremely high priced universities (Tulane and Stanford) - because I worked my tail off to earn scholarships. I did borrow money for room and board. My parents were poor - but there are merit scholarships out there for students willing to work hard.

For those that just are not able to do that what about just working and going to school part-time? My cousin who was not a good student in high school went back to school as a single mother and earned her degree. It took a long time but she did it. Going to college should be about getting an education not about sororities and fraternities and parties.

I was happy to borrow money. I do not think student loans are evil. But I lived extremely frugally when in college. I did not borrow money to live high on the hog and go on vacations. But in both cases my student loans were approximately 50% of my first year's salary out of schoo

What I do not comprehend is why people think the FAFSA contributions are so off the wall. If you make a good salary why shouldn't you be expected to contribute to a child's education before they get need based aid? Need based aid should be for those outstanding students whose parents do not have the financial means to help - not for those whose parents just prefer to to spend their money elsewhere.

Mom of 4. 2 in college 1 starting in the fall one 3 years away.

Our 1st 3 have been fortunate to work hard and earn merit scholarships. But they are the exception, not the rule. I feel like we won the lottery. Because they at the top of their class, people think that they can get a free ride anywhere. That simply is not the case. Scholarships are very competitive.

As parents out of college for 25 years, we were out of touch with college costs and the process to send a kid to college these days. Add in raising kid costs, setting aside retirement$, affording a decent(not extravagant) safe home for them to live, insurance and healthcare costs, etc. and there simply was not enough $ to set aside for college. Dh and I both worked solid professional jobs the whole time and we are frugal. There are only so many ways to squeeze blood out of a turnip.

Most American families working hard to make ends meet can not put $ aside for college. Fafsa is often the first sticker shock they face when helping their child prepare for college, especially bright middle class kids.

Had our kids not earned merit money, community college would have been the plan for the 1st 2 years while we figured the rest out. Dh and I went that route many years ago.

 

[Judique]

And that's great but again your stance is still that the way I wish to raise my children is wrong because I am actively choosing not to fund the entire college fund or the bulk of it. Your way of doing it isn't wrong but neither is mine but do understand there are plenty of people out there who have in the past, are currently going through it, or will be going through it soon who do not have a slightly or fully padded cushion from parents when it comes to college for whatever reasons there are.

A lot will happen over the next 20 years in your life. You say you are 'actively choosing not to fund the entire college fund or the bulk of it'.

I don't think you are yet qualified to make that choice. You don't have the child yet that will inspire the feelings in you to nurture it and do the best you can for he or she.

The world is constantly changing and you cannot predict the future. No one can. We can only follow what we think is the best plan for our families.

Good luck to you! I do think you've made some good decisions and have worked hard to get where you are. Hopefully everything will stay together for you - life is very uncertain.

 

[Jen and Ashwin]

Just because you can buy your kid the flashy car doesn't mean you won't instead buy them the used car. Just because you can buy your kid all the clothes they want doesn't mean you aren't going to buy them the clothes on sale or clearance. Just because you can send them to the college of their dreams (and probably your dreams) doesn't mean you aren't going to instead say "I'm only going to pay enough for this college, if you want to go to that college you'll have to come up with the difference yourself". Just because you value a degree doesn't mean you are going to hand your kids (well the college but you know what I mean) all the money they will need, you may instead say "I'll pay for base tuition or I'll pay for room and board or I'll pay for dining plan and/or books"

My parents are well off. My dad makes more in a year that I probably will make in 5 years. They were able to pay 100% of college for 3 kids, as well as grad school for me in full. They really, really value education. My dad has 3 degrees, as do I. In my family, there wasn't a question about if we would go to college, but rather where. They stressed the great value of a public university education, both having gone to Ohio State. All 3 of their kids ended up at Big 10 schools, not super surprising. This was the most important thing to them and now that I am expecting my first child, I can totally understand why. As I said before, I realize how much of a life changing gift it has been for me and I know my siblings would completely agree.

But even with all the money they had, they had a very down to earth attitude about life. We always went to public school. We didn't get the flashy clothes that many other students wore (we shopped at Old Navy not Abercrombie). We didn't get the gadgets and toys other kids got. We got a small allowance in exchange for beyond basic chores (making ours beds didn't count, but mowing the lawn earned extra). We did get cars, but they weren't new or flashy like so many of my classmates. We got hand-me-down cars, but they were safe and well maintained.

The only thing that was pretty unique from my classmates was that we traveled a lot. My parents really valued being exposed to other peoples and experiences. We usually vacationed 3 times a year and there were plenty of trips to WDW over the years, but a lot of the places we went really changed how I viewed the world. We traveled all over the US. We didn't take beach trips like other families, we took trips to battle fields, national parks and places of historic significance. My dad is a huge history buff and vacations for the most part were an opportunity for learning. Education was my parents #1 concern for their children and they viewed travel as part of that education.

And we traveled overseas to Europe, Central and South America and the Middle East. I was exposed to other cultures, other religions and living conditions that I had never really seen in the US. Extreme poverty like nothing in the US (even in the deep south). I saw young children and the very elderly engaged in hard manual labor, they were not enjoying life with their kids in old age. And I saw wealth like I had never seen either, especially in the Middle East. People flaunting material possessions like jewelry, clothing and super cars in a way you would never see in the Mid-West. It was such an amazing learning experience for me. And I hope to provide similar experiences for my children (though probably not to the same level that my parents were able to afford).

I am not sure where you lived as a child that you saw people traveling and living for the now, but I would be interested to know more about their country's safety net system. Lots of countries provide much more generous benefits to their citizens, such as 4 weeks standard paid time off, extended paid maternity leave, universal health care, living wage old age benefits, etc. The US is unlike most other 1st world countries in that we don't have such things. That makes it harder for someone in the US to say, "yes, I am going to live for today and not worry about the percentage I am putting towards my retirement." At 33, when making my retirement decisions, I am fully banking on the idea that social security won't exist when I retire. I plan on relying just on myself for my needs in old age because I don't think the government will be giving much assistance.

That doesn't mean that I am not happy or living for now. I just prioritize those things that I want to spend my money on, which for us is travel. DH and I are going on a Norwegian Fjords cruise in May. We took trips to WDW and Disneyland last year. We took a 3 week road-trip honeymoon to 13 national parks in the Western US the year before. We went on a Central/South American cruise the year before that. And so on, going on at least one major trip each year. At some point, I would love to expand that to more but right now there are other competing interests that also need to be funded. Travel makes us happy and so we prioritize for those expenses, giving up other things that don't contribute so much to that. My brother buys expensive clothes, eats out a ton and drives an Audi, but he never travels. We all make choices.

My basic point in this post is that I would like to take my parent's approach for my own children. They didn't give us everything in life, even though they could have. They focused on making us value the things that we had and they made us work for much of that. But in the end, they valued education so highly that they felt it was imperative to pay the full cost for us. It was the one thing that they knew would have the single greatest impact on our future and set us up for a good life, though the final outcome was ultimately in our own hands. That is what I want for my kids.

 

[DaisyJ]

I am not sure where you lived as a child that you saw people traveling and living for the now, but I would be interested to know more about their country's safety net system. Lots of countries provide much more generous benefits to their citizens, such as 4 weeks standard paid time off, extended paid maternity leave, universal health care, living wage old age benefits, etc. The US is unlike most other 1st world countries in that we don't have such things. That makes it harder for someone in the US to say, "yes, I am going to live for today and not worry about the percentage I am putting towards my retirement." At 33, when making my retirement decisions, I am fully banking on the idea that social security won't exist when I retire. I plan on relying just on myself for my needs in old age because I don't think the government will be giving much assistance.

This was the point I was going to make yesterday when I read that, but forgot. Yes, it is easy to live for the here and now when you know your retirement is taken care of and your healthcare is paid for and you have other safety nets to catch you if you fall flat on your face.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

My parents are well off. My dad makes more in a year that I probably will make in 5 years. They were able to pay 100% of college for 3 kids, as well as grad school for me in full. They really, really value education. My dad has 3 degrees, as do I. In my family, there wasn't a question about if we would go to college, but rather where. They stressed the great value of a public university education, both having gone to Ohio State. All 3 of their kids ended up at Big 10 schools, not super surprising. This was the most important thing to them and now that I am expecting my first child, I can totally understand why. As I said before, I realize how much of a life changing gift it has been for me and I know my siblings would completely agree.

But even with all the money they had, they had a very down to earth attitude about life. We always went to public school. We didn't get the flashy clothes that many other students wore (we shopped at Old Navy not Abercrombie). We didn't get the gadgets and toys other kids got. We got a small allowance in exchange for beyond basic chores (making ours beds didn't count, but mowing the lawn earned extra). We did get cars, but they weren't new or flashy like so many of my classmates. We got hand-me-down cars, but they were safe and well maintained.

The only thing that was pretty unique from my classmates was that we traveled a lot. My parents really valued being exposed to other peoples and experiences. We usually vacationed 3 times a year and there were plenty of trips to WDW over the years, but a lot of the places we went really changed how I viewed the world. We traveled all over the US. We didn't take beach trips like other families, we took trips to battle fields, national parks and places of historic significance. My dad is a huge history buff and vacations for the most part were an opportunity for learning. Education was my parents #1 concern for their children and they viewed travel as part of that education.

And we traveled overseas to Europe, Central and South America and the Middle East. I was exposed to other cultures, other religions and living conditions that I had never really seen in the US. Extreme poverty like nothing in the US (even in the deep south). I saw young children and the very elderly engaged in hard manual labor, they were not enjoying life with their kids in old age. And I saw wealth like I had never seen either, especially in the Middle East. People flaunting material possessions like jewelry, clothing and super cars in a way you would never see in the Mid-West. It was such an amazing learning experience for me. And I hope to provide similar experiences for my children (though probably not to the same level that my parents were able to afford).

I am not sure where you lived as a child that you saw people traveling and living for the now, but I would be interested to know more about their country's safety net system. Lots of countries provide much more generous benefits to their citizens, such as 4 weeks standard paid time off, extended paid maternity leave, universal health care, living wage old age benefits, etc. The US is unlike most other 1st world countries in that we don't have such things. That makes it harder for someone in the US to say, "yes, I am going to live for today and not worry about the percentage I am putting towards my retirement." At 33, when making my retirement decisions, I am fully banking on the idea that social security won't exist when I retire. I plan on relying just on myself for my needs in old age because I don't think the government will be giving much assistance.

That doesn't mean that I am not happy or living for now. I just prioritize those things that I want to spend my money on, which for us is travel. DH and I are going on a Norwegian Fjords cruise in May. We took trips to WDW and Disneyland last year. We took a 3 week road-trip honeymoon to 13 national parks in the Western US the year before. We went on a Central/South American cruise the year before that. And so on, going on at least one major trip each year. At some point, I would love to expand that to more but right now there are other competing interests that also need to be funded. Travel makes us happy and so we prioritize for those expenses, giving up other things that don't contribute so much to that. My brother buys expensive clothes, eats out a ton and drives an Audi, but he never travels. We all make choices.

My basic point in this post is that I would like to take my parent's approach for my own children. They didn't give us everything in life, even though they could have. They focused on making us value the things that we had and they made us work for much of that. But in the end, they valued education so highly that they felt it was imperative to pay the full cost for us. It was the one thing that they knew would have the single greatest impact on our future and set us up for a good life, though the final outcome was ultimately in our own hands. That is what I want for my kids.

Quite frankly I don't really care at this point to rehash 2 days worth of conversation.

But I think you may be talking about what @ellie05 had posted on a good portion of your post rather than about me. I never talked about travelling and things outside the U.S. and living in the now and status of happy and retirement. That was what @ellie05 was talking about in relation to their own experience and the only thing I had said was "Wow that's a very interesting outlook. One that I hadn't really even thought about. I'm sure it puts a lot into perspective for you and well if I'm to be honest for me as well."

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

A lot will happen over the next 20 years in your life. You say you are 'actively choosing not to fund the entire college fund or the bulk of it'.

I don't think you are yet qualified to make that choice. You don't have the child yet that will inspire the feelings in you to nurture it and do the best you can for he or she.

The world is constantly changing and you cannot predict the future. No one can. We can only follow what we think is the best plan for our families.

Good luck to you! I do think you've made some good decisions and have worked hard to get where you are. Hopefully everything will stay together for you - life is very uncertain.

Thank you for your kinds words but I don't think anyone outside of my own family is qualified to tell me how to do things in my own family and that's exactly what so many other posters have done. Sharing one's experience and telling one how to raise their children is quite another thing entirely. As I mentioned to the other poster I don't feel like rehashing 2 days worth of a conversation.

 

[crisi]

A few ways (not reliant on scholarships)...
1. Commute. It's not how kids WANT to go to college, but it will save them $11-$12K minimum off the top of college costs.
2. Take a gap year or two to earn, earn, earn! A FT minimum wage job can earn them probably about $10-$12K/year after taxes/work costs. A higher paying job could save them more.
3. Attend PT. My aunt did this for 10 years to get her degree - she lived on her own and worked FT and took credits towards a degree. She savored that degree like no one else b/c she worked for it (she originally had a full ride and dropped out her 2nd semester and went to work...a few years later, she realized what she did, and got to work)...

Everyone wants the 4 year away-from-mom sleepover camp experience...but that's not needed to get the degree...

If there is a decent college within commuting distance. Not everyone has that.

The other thing is that attending PT....the problem is when you get out into the working world and you haven't had a professional job yet and you are five years older than all the other entry level people. Hiring managers aren't supposed to discriminate on age, and they don't tend to ask, but they often do wonder "why do you look like you are in your mid/late-20s and just stepping into an entry level position now?" The answers they come up with on their own aren't good (I've been on a LOT of hiring committees over the years, and have had this exact conversation several times with different people). There are consequences to that path. Which, if you can't afford to go to school full time, you'll have to take - eventually you'll get over that. But if you can afford to save for your kids college - at least help them out, why would you start them with a strike at the plate when other people start them standing on first - or third.

Let's face it, there will always be some people who are standing on third due to birth and connections. I can't get my kids there, it isn't within our resources. But I think I can get them a walk by paying for college. And that gives them a leg up on someone who has to swing.

The other thing I've learned with a high school junior and senior at this stage in the game. College isn't for everyone. Sleep away camp experience college certainly isn't for everyone. But your kid should try and have a post high school experience where they have a good chance of being successful. For some kids, their best chance of being successful is trade school, or community college. For other kids, their best chance of being successful is a big land grant state uni. For others its a small private liberal arts sleep away college. For other people, its the military, or getting married, or going straight into the workforce. Figuring that out is balancing their personalities, goals, and - of course - the finances. Saving 'for college' keeps doors open - doors that are a good fit goal and personality wise, but which would be financially out of the question without savings. Some kids will succeed regardless of where they end up - they are survivors - plant them anywhere and they grow and thrive. Others need a spot in the garden more carefully chosen. In my case, it was middle school before my kids started to show what sort of post high school experience would work for them. It certainly hasn't been the post high school experience that I thought it would be when they were babies.