S/O What is middle class?

[DawnM]

I have values that include paying 100% of my children's higher education costs. My parents did it for me and it was the greatest gift that anyone has or probably will ever give me. It allowed me to start off life and take a lower paying fellowship because it would look good on my resume and help me get a much better job afterwards. If I had student loan payments, then I would not have been in the position to take that job. And I probably wouldn't have gotten my current job. And I wouldn't have been able to save $40,000 over two years for my house. It has freed up my options. That is what I want to do for my own kids, allow them to pursue the best course for them, unburdened by crushing student debt like so many of my friends have to deal with.

I am not saying that your choices are wrong, just different than mine. We all make choices about how we spend or save what we earn. There will be many people that never save a dime for their children's education. There will be those, like you, that choose to pick up part of the cost. And there will be some like me that strive to cover all of the costs. And that is alright.

When I graduated from college I asked my dad if I could pay him back, he said, "YES! You can pay me back by paying for your own kids' college costs!"

I want to do exactly that, but I also have 3 kids and can't afford $200K per kid for college. I just can't.

So, we have told our kids that we will cover the cost of a state school, which is $10K with tuition, fees, and books locally, and we may be able to help them with dorms, but we can't pay the entire thing if they go away or choose a private school.

Right now they have mentioned private schools, $40K-50K per year. We will have to see if they can get any scholarships, and if not, we will offer a portion of it and they will need to cover the rest.

 

[TwoMisfits]

And to bring it back to middle/lower/upper class...anyone in the lower class could probably never hope to actually save enough to fully fund all college expenses out of pocket. Anyone in the middle would struggle mightily, especially if they have more than 1 child. Anyone in the upper class could actually probably achieve this goal if they prioritized it.

I mean, it's one thing to say you'll pay in state tuition for 4 years while they live at home. It's another to say the world is their oyster no matter the cost - middle class parents really can't do that (especially with more than 1 child) without probably help from family, the feds, or the schools themselves...or without shirking their own retirement savings.

Harvard is $60K+/year for tuition/room and board (and this isn't the priciest school - NY and CA schools and some other private and city schools are much higher). So, $250K is needed per kid to make that school happen for 4 years without some sort of discount. To save that amount in under 18 years, a family would likely need to save almost $10K/year after taxes (even with some fund earnings) to get 1 child through. Roth IRAs for a couple should be funded for $11K 1st ($5.5K each spouse) before these savings, so you're talking (even without 401K savings, which should be another huge chunk), a middle class family finding $21K in after tax money each year just for savings...and with 2 kids, you'd need $32K/year...and with 3 kids, $43K/year...it gets more and more insane...so, it becomes not "values", but "reality" for most middle class families to say they will help, but to keep options reasonable or find other ways to fund that aren't mom or dad...

And note, most of these middle class families will get little "free" help - if you are close to 6 figures or just over that number (no matter the COL in your area), there's really no "free" money for you that isn't earned through merit or other desirous student features...

 

[ellie05]

Frankly I think people are getting the impression I'm going to leave my future kids high and dry. That's far from the truth. But my husband and I have values, that apparently don't match with other people and that's fine, everyone has their own values. Part of our values doesn't involve footing the entire college bill. And as far as the government goes it's one thing they haven't caught up with..parents are not the sole provider for college funds 100% of the time. It means nothing to someone who is expected to pay their own way or most of their own way what the government says their family should be able to contribute based on their parents income. Unfortunately FAFSA in its current state is unlikely to change. It helps to prepare people for expectations. I would never just tell my kid at 17 when they are getting ready for college that "hey..yeah...btw"

The dis where people tell you how to parent the kids you don't have...

Thanks to my mom's job we grew up in different countries and what a great experience that was. When we moved back it was a complete shock of the obsession Americas have with personal finances and retirement. I find it fascinating and comical at times and ironically they don't rank as happy nation...

Before I get lecture about personal finances yes we put money for retirement away, yes we have savings, but I am not running trying to pay our house or our car off. Thankfully my parents taught me how to be responsible with money which translate now in excellent credit despite our age and our interest rates a minimal. What I am not doing is stop traveling to save even more money. I will go to hike the Inca trail when I am still young and healthy, I am going to Italy to sip wine and heck I am going to drink good champagne, eat organic foods and probably pay too much for gym memberships. I remember an old thread on this board how someone said how this young people are so spoil that they expect to have gym memberships ironically people save so much money and forget that money won't buy you health or time. It remains me of my favorite quote "people wait all week for Friday, all year for summer and all life for happiness." I refuse to be those people. Just look at this thread most people don't see really happy to be were they are at. I am happy I am thankful everyday for what I have I think that is something that learned from those third world countries we lived in where people had much much less and yet they are still rank highest in happiness. No one is obsessed about retirement and everyone still makes it fine. I think one huge difference is that people in the US plan to travel and do all this things when they retire when they finally get there they can't do it because of health issues or other reasons. In other places most people travel when young and retirement they live a low key life and spend time with their families.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

And to bring it back to middle/lower/upper class...anyone in the lower class could probably never hope to actually save enough to fully fund all college expenses out of pocket. Anyone in the middle would struggle mightily, especially if they have more than 1 child. Anyone in the upper class could actually probably achieve this goal if they prioritized it.

I mean, it's one thing to say you'll pay in state tuition for 4 years while they live at home. It's another to say the world is their oyster no matter the cost - middle class parents really can't do that (especially with more than 1 child) without probably help from family, the feds, or the schools themselves...or without shirking their own retirement savings.

Harvard is $60K+/year for tuition/room and board (and this isn't the priciest school - NY and CA schools and some other private and city schools are much higher). So, $250K is needed per kid to make that school happen for 4 years without some sort of discount. To save that amount in under 18 years, a family would likely need to save almost $10K/year after taxes (even with some fund earnings) to get 1 child through. Roth IRAs for a couple should be funded for $11K 1st ($5.5K each spouse) before these savings, so you're talking (even without 401K savings, which should be another huge chunk), a middle class family finding $21K in after tax money each year just for savings...and with 2 kids, you'd need $32K/year...and with 3 kids, $43K/year...it gets more and more insane...so, it becomes not "values", but "reality" for most middle class families to say they will help, but to keep options reasonable or find other ways to fund that aren't mom or dad...

And note, most of these middle class families will get little "free" help - if you are close to 6 figures or just over that number (no matter the COL in your area), there's really no "free" money for you that isn't earned through merit or other desirous student features...

Yes you are correct it is a reality (as I mentioned above about student loans being a reality for millions of people)..as it was for me. There is a value part to how I want to raise my children but there is also a reality part as well. I'm sure there are also parents in the upper class that while they have plenty of funds choose not to pay for their kids college or only provide X amount of assistance, in that situation it would be more of a value than reality aspect.

 

[b2k1121]

I really don't know what you are saying here. Even upper class have to worry about money. Even those in the 1% have to worry about money. It is really only the ultra-rich, maybe the top 0.5% or 0.25% of people that don't have to worry about money.

There is a big difference between 'worrying about money' for someone in the upper class and worrying about being able to afford groceries, bills, etc week to week. You are upper class if your 'worrying' is limited only to deciding how much money you want to set aside for other things. Lower and sometimes middle don't even have the option to set aside if they want to eat, and wish they could 'worry' about what % they could set aside.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

The dis where people tell you how to parent the kids you don't have...

Oh yes very true.

Before I get lecture about personal finances yes we put money for retirement away, yes we have savings, but I am not running trying to pay our house or our car off thankfully my parents taught me how to be responsible with money which translate now in excellent credit despite our age and our interest rates a minimal. What I am not doing is stop traveling to save even more money. I will go to hike the Inca trail when I am still young and healthy, I am going to Italy and sipping wine and heck I am going to drink good champagne, eat organic foods and probably pay too much for gym memberships. I remember an old thread on this board how someone said how this young people are so spoil that they expect to have gym memberships ironically people save so much money and forget that money won't buy you health or time. It remains me of my favorite quote "people wait all week for Friday, all year for summer and all life for happiness." I refuse to be those people. Just look at this thread most people don't see really happy to be were they are at. I am happy I am thankful everyday for what I have I think that is something that learn from those third world countries we lived in where people had much much less and yet they are still rank highest in happiness. None obsessed about retirement and everyone still made it fine. I think one huge difference is that people in the US plan to travel and do all this things when they retire when they finally get there they can't do it because of health issues or other reasons. In other places most people travel when young and retirement they life a low key life and spend time with their families.

Wow that's a very interesting outlook. One that I hadn't really even thought about. I'm sure it puts a lot into perspective for you and well if I'm to be honest for me as well.

 

[AquaDame]

The point is people who have been there done that are telling you your plan won't work. I guess you'll figure it out, but by that time it will be too late.

There are a lot of kids out there who go to college without assistance from their parents. There are also a lot of kids who go to college who should not go to college too and waste their parent's money. This way is not the only way...

 

[b2k1121]

Before I get lecture about personal finances yes we put money for retirement away, yes we have savings, but I am not running trying to pay our house or our car off thankfully my parents taught me how to be responsible with money which translate now in excellent credit despite our age and our interest rates a minimal. What I am not doing is stop traveling to save even more money. I will go to hike the Inca trail when I am still young and healthy, I am going to Italy and sipping wine and heck I am going to drink good champagne, eat organic foods and probably pay too much for gym memberships. I remember an old thread on this board how someone said how this young people are so spoil that they expect to have gym memberships ironically people save so much money and forget that money won't buy you health or time. It remains me of my favorite quote "people wait all week for Friday, all year for summer and all life for happiness." I refuse to be those people. Just look at this thread most people don't see really happy to be were they are at. I am happy I am thankful everyday for what I have I think that is something that learn from those third world countries we lived in where people had much much less and yet they are still rank highest in happiness. None obsessed about retirement and everyone still made it fine. I think one huge difference is that people in the US plan to travel and do all this things when they retire when they finally get there they can't do it because of health issues or other reasons. In other places most people travel when young and retirement they life a low key life and spend time with their families.

Thank you for this post! It's a viewpoint I think a minority of people have in the US unfortunately, we take fewer vacations than most countries. Many look down on you for taking time off or if you leave the office early, they think putting in hours = hard work. My first priority, especially after having a real health scare, is to have the life I want and that's not to wait til I'm 60 or 70 to do the things I want to do only to find I'm too old to want to do them or died before I got there. Doesn't mean I'm not responsible and not saving, but if there's an opportunity to do something now, I'm going to do it. I don't care what class I am in or how my car and/or house compares to others. I'm not going to live my life striving to climb some ladder cause at the end of it, none of that will matter, I can't take my money, status, or things with me. I doubt there are many on their death bed that regret not putting in more hours at the office or regret that they decided to go on that once in a lifetime trip when they were young. At that point in my life I'd rather think about good memories and times I had with family instead of being glad I have a bunch of money in the bank.

 

[Mrs. Ciz]

See and that's perfectly fine that you want to pay for all of your kid's education. I see nothing wrong with that. But then why is it wrong for someone to not want to pay for all or most of their kid's education? Think about it this way I still got a good job, my husband got a good job, we paid for our wedding/honeymoon, I bought my own car and still drive it 11 years later, my husband bought his own car (minus $2,000 that his parents owed him) and he still drives it nearly 7 years later, we have our house...and we had student loans. It's not to say our own experience could ever be replicated but we don't in any consider it a detriment that we paid for most of our college. What I was not so nicely being told is that my value is wrong. I appreciate that you did not say that but instead said that my choices are different than yours.

I didn't mean to stir up trouble. You ask above "why is it wrong for someone not to want to pay for all or most of their kid's education." I never said it was wrong, only that today (and 18+ years in the future for your eventual children) it may not be realistic. I also understand that some parents want their kids to have "some skin in the game", so they don't waste the money on partying instead of learning. I totally get that! I just don't see how a kid is supposed to pay for it all when the parent won't help with the "bulk of costs" (your words).

A freshman can only take out $5500 a year in loans on their own. How much does a teen make at a summer job these days? My teens each made $2000 over the summer (some will make more, some less). They may be able to get a part time job during the school year; that would help some. My DD's tuition, room, board and books at a state school will be over $21,000 a year (not counting any spending money at all). DS's is $25,000 a year now for tuition, room, board & books and will be $30,000 a year next year if he gets into the undergrad business program at his state school. How is a kid supposed to make up the $14,000 to $23,000+ difference and still get decent grades? Tuition costs are only going up and up and up! If parents don't help, that means debt, debt and more debt for the young person.

I don't have a good answer to this question. All I know is that the middle class is slowly being priced out of a college education.

 

[erc]

When I graduated from college I asked my dad if I could pay him back, he said, "YES! You can pay me back by paying for your own kids' college costs!"

I want to do exactly that, but I also have 3 kids and can't afford $200K per kid for college. I just can't.

So, we have told our kids that we will cover the cost of a state school, which is $10K with tuition, fees, and books locally, and we may be able to help them with dorms, but we can't pay the entire thing if they go away or choose a private school.

Right now they have mentioned private schools, $40K-50K per year. We will have to see if they can get any scholarships, and if not, we will offer a portion of it and they will need to cover the rest.

This is similar to our view. I will do the most I can. If the Feds tell me I should be able to contribute $20K or $30K a year, that's what we will do. My DD17 got accepted into a private college that costs around $60K to attend. She received a $25K per year scholarship which is fantastic, but it still leaves $35K to come up with every year. $5,500 is her student loan, and the other $29,500 is Mom & Dad. DW will be going back to work and probably not even making that much every year, but every bit is income we didn't have before. And hopefully over time we will chip away and have it all paid for.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

You ask above "why is it wrong for someone not to want to pay for all or most of their kid's education." I never said it was wrong, only that today (and 18+ years in the future for your eventual children) it may not be realistic. I also understand that some parents want their kids to have "some skin in the game", so they don't waste the money on partying instead of learning. I totally get that! I just don't see how a kid is supposed to pay for it all when the parent won't help with the "bulk of costs" (your words).A freshman can only take out $5500 a year in loans on their own. How much does a teen make at a summer job these days? My teens each made $2000 over the summer (some will make more, some less). They may be able to get a part time job during the school year; that would help some. My DD's tuition, room, board and books at a state school will be over $21,000 a year (not counting any spending money at all). DS's is $24,000 a year now for tuition, room, board & books and will be $30,000 a year next year if he gets into the undergrad business program at his state school. How is a kid supposed to make up the $14,000 to $23,000+ difference and still get decent grades? Tuition costs are only going up and up and up!

Actually what you said was:

"That is a terrible way to start grown up life! You have to start saving for your children's college the minute they are born."

The funny thing is are people really under the impression that every student has gotten assistance or a large assistance from their parents? You say "just don't see how a kid is supposed to pay for it all when the parent won't help with the "bulk of costs"" Ask the millions of other students who are right now at college without financial assistance or large assistance from their parents. Some are there because their parents couldn't help and some are because their parents chose not to help. Some went to junior college for a year or two to help save costs, some take the minimum credits for a full time student either due to cost or attempt to work more to earn more money and take longer to graduate, some do part-time student and take longer to graduate, some push through working, normal credit hrs per semesters and keeping up grades and some do other stuff. In the end they are still there are they not?

Lord love my husband he worked his tail off to graduate with an aerospace engineering degree which is normally a 5 year program but has a crazy hectic schedule to do it in 4 years. He did it in 4 yrs while working 5 days a week at an engineering firm 30 miles away, still had to work in homework/classwork and still had a great GPA. All with minimal assistance from his parents. While I did not have assistance from my parents or as crazy hectic schedule as a psychology major I still worked as much as I could (2 of those jobs over time were 30 miles away), did homework/classwork and graduated with a good GPA as well and yes the horror we took out some student loans.

 

[TwoMisfits]

I didn't mean to stir up trouble. You ask above "why is it wrong for someone not to want to pay for all or most of their kid's education." I never said it was wrong, only that today (and 18+ years in the future for your eventual children) it may not be realistic. I also understand that some parents want their kids to have "some skin in the game", so they don't waste the money on partying instead of learning. I totally get that! I just don't see how a kid is supposed to pay for it all when the parent won't help with the "bulk of costs" (your words).

A freshman can only take out $5500 a year in loans on their own. How much does a teen make at a summer job these days? My teens each made $2000 over the summer (some will make more, some less). They may be able to get a part time job during the school year; that would help some. My DD's tuition, room, board and books at a state school will be over $21,000 a year (not counting any spending money at all). DS's is $25,000 a year now for tuition, room, board & books and will be $30,000 a year next year if he gets into the undergrad business program at his state school. How is a kid supposed to make up the $14,000 to $23,000+ difference and still get decent grades? Tuition costs are only going up and up and up! If parents don't help, that means debt, debt and more debt for the young person.

I don't have a good answer to this question. All I know is that the middle class is slowly being priced out of a college education.

A few ways (not reliant on scholarships)...
1. Commute. It's not how kids WANT to go to college, but it will save them $11-$12K minimum off the top of college costs.
2. Take a gap year or two to earn, earn, earn! A FT minimum wage job can earn them probably about $10-$12K/year after taxes/work costs. A higher paying job could save them more.
3. Attend PT. My aunt did this for 10 years to get her degree - she lived on her own and worked FT and took credits towards a degree. She savored that degree like no one else b/c she worked for it (she originally had a full ride and dropped out her 2nd semester and went to work...a few years later, she realized what she did, and got to work)...

Everyone wants the 4 year away-from-mom sleepover camp experience...but that's not needed to get the degree...

 

[Mrs. Ciz]

Actually what you said was:

"That is a terrible way to start grown up life! You have to start saving for your children's college the minute they are born."

The funny thing is are people really under the impression that every student has gotten assistance or a large assistance from their parents? You say "just don't see how a kid is supposed to pay for it all when the parent won't help with the "bulk of costs"" Ask the millions of other students who are right now at college without financial assistance or large assistance from their parents. Some are there because their parents couldn't help and some are because their parents chose not to help. Some went to junior college for a year or two to help save costs, some take the minimum credits for a full time student either due to cost or attempt to work more to earn more money and take longer to graduate, some do part-time student and take longer to graduate, some push through working, normal credit hrs per semesters and keeping up grades and some do other stuff. In the end they are still there are they not?

Lord love my husband he worked his tail off to graduate with an aerospace engineering degree which is normally a 5 year program but has a crazy hectic schedule to do it in 4 years. He did it in 4 yrs while working 5 days a week at an engineering firm 30 miles away, still had to work in homework/classwork and still had a great GPA. All with minimal assistance from his parents. While I did not have assistance from my parents or as crazy hectic schedule as a psychology major I still worked as much as I could (2 of those jobs over time were 30 miles away), did homework/classwork and graduated with a good GPA as well and yes the horror we took out some student loans.

Yep, I did say that. I am in the thick of it right now, and I really do believe it. I have my opinion; you have yours.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Yep, I did say that. I am in the thick of it right now, and I really do believe it. I have my opinion; you have yours.

And that's great but again your stance is still that the way I wish to raise my children is wrong because I am actively choosing not to fund the entire college fund or the bulk of it. Your way of doing it isn't wrong but neither is mine but do understand there are plenty of people out there who have in the past, are currently going through it, or will be going through it soon who do not have a slightly or fully padded cushion from parents when it comes to college for whatever reasons there are.

 

[Mrs. Ciz]

A few ways (not reliant on scholarships)...
1. Commute. It's not how kids WANT to go to college, but it will save them $11-$12K minimum off the top of college costs.
2. Take a gap year or two to earn, earn, earn! A FT minimum wage job can earn them probably about $10-$12K/year after taxes/work costs. A higher paying job could save them more.
3. Attend PT. My aunt did this for 10 years to get her degree - she lived on her own and worked FT and took credits towards a degree. She savored that degree like no one else b/c she worked for it (she originally had a full ride and dropped out her 2nd semester and went to work...a few years later, she realized what she did, and got to work)...

Everyone wants the 4 year away-from-mom sleepover camp experience...but that's not needed to get the degree...

You are right. It's not ideal, but it could be done. It would be a struggle though. As a parent, I chose to smooth the path to education some for my kids. They still work and pay for all their other expenses, but DH and I saved for years and years for tuition. Then as college approached I got a better paying job to pay room & board. My parents did it for me; DH had a full ride football scholarship and his parents helped him with other expenses. My mother was a teacher who valued education tremendously. So part of my outlook comes from the way I was raised. I feel I have a moral responsibility to educate my children. I realize not everyone feels the same way.

 

[Mrs. Ciz]

And that's great but again your stance is still that the way I wish to raise my children is wrong because I am actively choosing not to fund the entire college fund or the bulk of it. Your way of doing it isn't wrong but neither is mine but do understand there are plenty of people out there who have in the past, are currently going through it, or will be going through it soon who do not have a slightly or fully padded cushion from parents when it comes to college for whatever reasons there are.

I guess I just don't get it. If you could afford it, why would you let your children struggle to get a college education?

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I guess I just don't get it. If you could afford it, why would you let your children struggle to get a college education?

You don't have to get it. There is just a fundamental difference between you and I and some other posters. It isn't wrong either way though.

My answers will still be the same if a family could afford it or not. What kind of response would you give to someone who said they couldn't afford to send their kids to college at all (like my situation was). Are you going to tell them "oh that's a shame you have to struggle just because your parents can't afford to send you to college"?

Just because you can buy your kid the flashy car doesn't mean you won't instead buy them the used car. Just because you can buy your kid all the clothes they want doesn't mean you aren't going to buy them the clothes on sale or clearance. Just because you can send them to the college of their dreams (and probably your dreams) doesn't mean you aren't going to instead say "I'm only going to pay enough for this college, if you want to go to that college you'll have to come up with the difference yourself". Just because you value a degree doesn't mean you are going to hand your kids (well the college but you know what I mean) all the money they will need, you may instead say "I'll pay for base tuition or I'll pay for room and board or I'll pay for dining plan and/or books"

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

You are right. It's not ideal, but it could be done. It would be a struggle though. As a parent, I chose to smooth the path to education some for my kids. They still work and pay for all their other expenses, but DH and I saved for years and years for tuition. Then as college approached I got a better paying job to pay room & board. My parents did it for me; DH had a full ride football scholarship and his parents helped him with other expenses. My mother was a teacher who valued education tremendously. So part of my outlook comes from the way I was raised. I feel I have a moral responsibility to educate my children. I realize not everyone feels the same way.

Do you really think that my outlook is truly not impacted by the way I was raised?

 

[Mrs. Ciz]

Do you really think that my outlook is truly not impacted by the way I was raised?

I believe it was. You feel like the struggle to get a college education made you value it more. I get that. I also know some folks who struggled to go to college just as you did, and it had the exact opposite effect. They know how hard they had to work and don't want to put their children through the same struggle. To each his own as they say.

I know I am not going to change your mind. The whole intention of my original post was so that 18+ years from now, you would not be surprised by the cost of college and by how much the government expects a middle class parent to contribute. My job here is done.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I believe it was. You feel like the struggle to get a college education made you value it more. I get that. I also know some folks who struggled to go to college just as you did, and it had the exact opposite effect. They know how hard they had to work and don't want to put their children through the same struggle. To each his own as they say.

I know I am not going to change your mind. The whole intention of my original post was so that 18+ years from now, you would not be surprised by the cost of college and by how much the government expects a middle class parent to contribute. My job here is done.

I'm not trying to be offensive here but are you living in a fantasy world where every parent gives their kids $ to go to college? Take the not being able to afford it or not out do you think that every student sent to college who had parents who could afford it actually paid for all or the bulk of college? You realize I'm by far the only person in the world that has the opinion that I do.

And no it wasn't the struggle that made it have more value. Good lord you are so off base on that but again you want to just assume things all day long. Not only that but I never mentioned anything about not understanding what the government will expect me to do. That is appearantly something you and others assumed. I said what I was personally going to do. Your "job" as you put it wasn't even a job you needed to do.

And why are you trying to change my mind if you accept that we have different opinions, outlooks, values, etc? Because you mention you're not going to change my mind.