S/O What is middle class?

I think most of us had been through that. I think those calculators are so ridiculous! Right now, the bank rate calculator online says we could easily (going by the most conservative recommendation) afford a house that is $130,000 more than what we paid for ours. There's absolutely no way we could afford that.
We didn't go with what the calculator told us we could afford. We went with what we comfortably could afford. Before even speaking with builders they want to see your pre-approval letter showing what you are at least pre-approved for. We were pre-approved for up to just over $500,000...we did not buy a house that price just because the calculator and pre-approval letter told us we could.
 
In my opinion the calculations are not really true to individual situations but it was interesting to look at. It really depends on how much cash is available to spend, which depends on your amount of debt. I'm now retired and make $ 25,000 a year...after taxes. I get back $ 1000.00 from income tax. Am I in the low income category? I have zero debt. My living expenses, without food, are $ 800.00 a month, which I share with my sister. I've given myself a vacation budget of $ 9000.00 a year, which is about three vacations, or if I break it up into smaller vacations....I would be going on more vacations. So just because you make a certain amount per year, and mine is quite low, it doesn't define what you actually have to spend on fun, or how secure you feel with your current income level. It simply is all relative. But....it's fun to talk about and I've enjoyed reading all your posts!
 
Even the 1% are not all carefree. Making $420,000 (the minimum to be in the 1% for 2016) a year would definitely bring more financial security, but it doesn't make money meaningless. Before any possible deductions, you would pay roughly $115,000 in taxes on your income. If you saved 50% of your income and lived on the rest, then you would be looking at expenses of roughly $152,500. To me, financial freedom would be being able to draw down on money equal to your current living costs (adjusted for inflation over time) for the rest of your life. Then money wouldn't matter so much any more because you would have a set, continuous standard of living for the rest of your life.

So in this case, this person is saving $152,500 per year and wants to be able to match that in investment income for the rest of their life. It would take about $3 million dollars with 5% returns to ensure they can draw down $152,500 (adjusted for inflation) for life (assuming 50-60 years). To save $3 million, it would take 12 years making 5% interest on investments. This doesn't seem too bad really, except that most people in the 1% usually only remain in the 1% for a few years, at most. The 1% is very fluid and so most people would not be able to save at that kind of rate over that long of a period.

And most people making that kind of salary, just like most people in general, would never save 50% of their earnings. A best case scenario would be that they save 20% (most people making retirement contributions actually save just 7.5%), which would mean they are spending $244,000 per year and would need $6.5 million to match that salary. It would take them 31 years to reach the same point of being able to draw the equivalent of their annual spending, assuming that they maintained that same salary over the entire course of those 31 years (highly unlikely).

My point exactly! You said you are not upper income because you still worry about money.
 
I could have put down as little as 5%. I choose to save up and put 20% down because I didn't want to pay PMI and I wanted to feel comfortable with my mortgage payment. I could also have qualified for a mortgage on a much more expensive home, but I choose not to over extend myself.
I also could have qualified for a more expensive home than I bought.

For me it would have cost me $16,200 in rent for each year I waited to purchase a home. You know the thing is it's not just like throwing a dart and saying...yeah that home it's only X amount and because it's X amount I'll buy it. You have inventory to deal with, you have the current housing market to deal with, you have location to deal with, etc. I too wanted to feel comfortable with my mortgage payment...so we purchased a home we could do that. We weren't going in blind nor being naive about it. I think that's awesome that you were able to put up the 20%.

My home cost $214,000. I put 20% down, having saved $40,000 during my first two years of full time work and the rest coming from previous savings from college jobs. That is $42,800 + closing costs. I don't know what age group you are talking about, but I would never put down 3.5% on a house. You will be paying interest to the bank for a very, very long time before you build any kind of equity. You might think a 20% down payment is old school, but I see it as very smart. Since buying 5 years ago, my house has now appreciated to $280,000. I was lucky and bought in a very down market. I am nearing the point of having 50% equity in my home in just a little over 5 years. I wouldn't be there if I put 5% down. But it provides me with so much more financial security. Now I am working on having my loan paid off in 15 years instead of the 30 years that my mortgage runs. It will save me roughly $70,000 in interest payments over the life of my loan. I can think of a lot better uses for that money.

ETA: A lot of our desire to pay off our house sooner has been because of my in-laws financial situation. They bought a house 10 years ago. It has appreciated in value, but they have refinanced it several times and taken equity out. DH's dad is 60 years and at this point, there is no way he will ever be able to retire because he has this house payment that will probably never end. They have less equity in their house than we do in ours and it is a much more expensive home. DH and I want to get our house paid off by the time I am 43 (DH would be 38). It would allow us to be in a much better financial position to help his parents if we needed to do so. It would also allow us to have more options for ourselves, such as increasing retirement or college savings for kids. We are thinking very long term right now, but we feel that is what we need to do to ensure that we reach our goals of a secure retirement, paying for kids college and making sure DH's parents are cared for in their old age.
I myself wouldn't have put 3.5% down either. That was our friends that did that. They put down a down payment of just over $5,000. I do believe they did an FHA loan. We did a conventional loan. And I do agree in their situation their equity is not really there. Maybe it might be now since they've been there for 3 1/2-4 years and then did some interior upgrades and the market there has upped a bit (their location plays a large role in their cost) but our situation is different. We had equity the moment the house was completed. New build housing costs raised half-way through our home building process. Also the Developer 2 weeks before we reserved our lot raised every single empty lot they own in all of our metro (both sides of the state line) by an arbitrary $5,000 just cuz.

I think most people would like the idea of putting 20% but their situation may not allow it. And I never said it wasn't smart..never said that. Just said it isn't something that at least our financial advisor nor the advice given to people around me said you should just do as an automatic. Each person's situation is going to be different. Our friends that put the 3.5% down bought when the interest rate was in the low 3%. We waited a year and the interest rates were in the low 4%. Had we waited longer the interest rates would eventually dip lower again but the housing costs had gone up. And that would have played a role in our down payment.

I agree with the retirement savings. We are def. doing that and we are thinking of long term. It's a large reason why we bought with lower than 20%. We knew we needed to have fluid funds should something arise. In our situation we understand that while the housing market is a delicate balance our particular situation but a bit more positive than others. We aren't sitting here saving money for college for a) kids we don't have yet and b) we're not footing the bill for college...help for sure..but not entire costs or even the bulk of costs.
 
I can't speak to NYC but around here many sellers here won't accept an offer with FHA financing. Of course, this is an area where a full one third of all home sales the past 3 years have been cash sales.

Its similar here but when we bought in 2012 cash was still unheard of except in the more expensive areas (where people from richer markets tended to land). Now they're taking all the houses within a 15 min commute of downtown. Works for me... people think Im crazy living a full 20 from downtown. Those 30 blocks and 5 minutes saved us at least 100K and gained us a huge lot and a second garage. I thought eventually we'd be able to move closer if we wanted if we were still here in a decade but we might be here for the long haul. Those 300-400K houses are now going for 600-700K. Tear down lots are the only thing in the 300-400K range and good luck getting that for anything but cash.

You mean like the people a few days ago hilariously trying to convince me that someone who makes $170,000 a year can comfortably afford a $720,000 house?

If they have a bunch of profit from other homes to put on a downpayment maybe... otherwise that'd be hard. Maybe if you save no money, have no kids etc?
 
We aren't sitting here saving money for college for a) kids we don't have yet and b) we're not footing the bill for college...help for sure..but not entire costs or even the bulk of costs.
When you do eventually have children, you may want to rethink the bolded. The government absolutely expects middle class parents to save (for 18 years) and pay for the bulk of their children's college education. Financial aid is made up mostly of loans, not free money, and students can only borrow a small amount of money all on their own. The rest of the loans must be cosigned by parents. Say the parents cosign the huge loans (huge b/c even pubic universities are running $25000 to $30000 a year for instate students now), and make the kids responsible for paying them off. The kids then start their professional lives saddled with HUGE amounts of student loan debt that will take decades to pay off! That is a terrible way to start grown up life! You have to start saving for your children's college the minute they are born.
 
We didn't go with what the calculator told us we could afford. We went with what we comfortably could afford. Before even speaking with builders they want to see your pre-approval letter showing what you are at least pre-approved for. We were pre-approved for up to just over $500,000...we did not buy a house that price just because the calculator and pre-approval letter told us we could.

Exactly, as I would hope most people would do (and think they likely do). When we were pre-approved, we told our bank what we felt comfortable with and they pre-approved us for that. We didn't try to get pre-approved for more (and they never mentioned we should). I don't think those calculators help anyone out.
 
When you do eventually have children, you may want to rethink the bolded. The government absolutely expects middle class parents to save (for 18 years) and pay for the bulk of their children's college education. Financial aid is made up mostly of loans, not free money, and students can only borrow a small amount of money all on their own. The rest of the loans must be cosigned by parents. Say the parents cosign the huge loans (huge b/c even pubic universities are running $25000 to $30000 a year for instate students now), and make the kids responsible for paying them off. The kids then start their professional lives saddled with HUGE amounts of student loan debt that will take decades to pay off! That is a terrible way to start grown up life! You have to start saving for your children's college the minute they are born.
Trust me I know...I put myself through college and saved money for it as well as getting loans. My husband's family paid for the first year of college and his sophmore year they paid for one year of his apartment. He ended up with the same debt as me. My mother had bankruptcy to deal with and my father was out of the picture. I knew for years that college was on me. Not everyone has their parents financial backing. My husband's family wanted to help him out but to a point.

I'm not negating that having student loans sucks but for millions of students that is called reality..a terrible way to start grown up life?...eh that is in the eye of the beholder really. Neither my husband nor I would consider it a terrible way to start grown up life....heck not even my sister-in-law (who had 2 years of apartment rent paid for rather than my husband having the one year) thinks it's a terrible way to start grown up life.

Look I'm not getting into a parenting lesson here but suffice to say not everyone feels like it is their parents job to pay for their kids college..this is coming from someone who is on both sides (the kid who had to pay for their own college and the future parent as well).
 
Exactly, as I would hope most people would do (and think they likely do). When we were pre-approved, we told our bank what we felt comfortable with and they pre-approved us for that. We didn't try to get pre-approved for more (and they never mentioned we should). I don't think those calculators help anyone out.
Yeah you know it's like the link the in the first post. There has been much discussion about it based on very simple metrics (your state, your metro area, your household income before taxes, and the number of people in your household). Four items to show you what class you are in. Multiple people have said the don't feel in ___ class don't feel like it because of x,y,z and even if the metrics tells them they are in that class they personally don't feel like it. Same with the mortgage calculators..limited information.
 
Trust me I know...I put myself through college and saved money for it as well as getting loans. My husband's family paid for the first year of college and his sophmore year they paid for one year of his apartment. He ended up with the same debt as me. My mother had bankruptcy to deal with and my father was out of the picture. I knew for years that college was on me. Not everyone has their parents financial backing. My husband's family wanted to help him out but to a point.

I'm not negating that having student loans sucks but for millions of students that is called reality..a terrible way to start grown up life?...eh that is in the eye of the beholder really. Neither my husband nor I would consider it a terrible way to start grown up life....heck not even my sister-in-law (who had 2 years of apartment rent paid for rather than my husband having the one year) thinks it's a terrible way to start grown up life.

Look I'm not getting into a parenting lesson here but suffice to say not everyone feels like it is their parents job to pay for their kids college..this is coming from someone who is on both sides (the kid who had to pay for their own college and the future parent as well).
Get back to us in 20 years when your children are starting college and costs have skyrocketed and let us know how that plan is working for your child.
 
My point exactly! You said you are not upper income because you still worry about money.

I really don't know what you are saying here. Even upper class have to worry about money. Even those in the 1% have to worry about money. It is really only the ultra-rich, maybe the top 0.5% or 0.25% of people that don't have to worry about money.
 
Thanks but I rarely like the whole attitude on the DIS with the "yeah get back to us when x,y,z"

I can gently give a real-world example. I could say I am not going to pay for the bulk of my kids' college costs but then there would be a pretty high chance that they might forego college because there is just no way a kid today could pay for the costs themselves. I know in some places public college is much cheaper. I would say on average in New England public universities are still around $22,000 for everything and private schools average $52,000 for everything. A student by themselves is limited as to how much they can borrow every year and as a parent you fill out the FAFSA and the govt. tells you what you should be contributing as a parent. My income last year unfortunately showed $30K higher than it really is. That hurt me with college aid for my kid because they came back and said I should contribute $34,000 a year. Without that extra $30K in income the figure was $22,000 a year. So regardless of whether I think I should help pay for college, the govt. expects that I will pay $34,000 out of my own pocket the first year. That basically means, no govt. financial aid except for parent loans. The situation with college costs and financing is every bit as insane as you have been reading. 18 years ago, I thought, well, we will figure it out when the times comes, 18 years is a crazy long time from now. One thing you learn as a parent is time really does speed up. 18 years before kids is way slower than 18 years after kids. And then you find yourself filling out financial aid forms and thinking, holy cow, this stuff is expensive.
 
I can gently give a real-world example. I could say I am not going to pay for the bulk of my kids' college costs but then there would be a pretty high chance that they might forego college because there is just no way a kid today could pay for the costs themselves. I know in some places public college is much cheaper. I would say on average in New England public universities are still around $22,000 for everything and private schools average $52,000 for everything. A student by themselves is limited as to how much they can borrow every year and as a parent you fill out the FAFSA and the govt. tells you what you should be contributing as a parent. My income last year unfortunately showed $30K higher than it really is. That hurt me with college aid for my kid because they came back and said I should contribute $34,000 a year. Without that extra $30K in income the figure was $22,000 a year. So regardless of whether I think I should help pay for college, the govt. expects that I will pay $34,000 out of my own pocket the first year. That basically means, no govt. financial aid except for parent loans. The situation with college costs and financing is every bit as insane as you have been reading. 18 years ago, I thought, well, we will figure it out when the times comes, 18 years is a crazy long time from now. One thing you learn as a parent is time really does speed up. 18 years before kids is way slower than 18 years after kids. And then you find yourself filling out financial aid forms and thinking, holy cow, this stuff is expensive.
Frankly I think people are getting the impression I'm going to leave my future kids high and dry. That's far from the truth. But my husband and I have values, that apparently don't match with other people and that's fine, everyone has their own values. Part of our values doesn't involve footing the entire college bill. And as far as the government goes it's one thing they haven't caught up with..parents are not the sole provider for college funds 100% of the time. It means nothing to someone who is expected to pay their own way or most of their own way what the government says their family should be able to contribute based on their parents income. Unfortunately FAFSA in its current state is unlikely to change. It helps to prepare people for expectations. I would never just tell my kid at 17 when they are getting ready for college that "hey..yeah...btw"
 
I really don't know what you are saying here. Even upper class have to worry about money. Even those in the 1% have to worry about money. It is really only the ultra-rich, maybe the top 0.5% or 0.25% of people that don't have to worry about money.

Per your post you said it seem that you imply a certain definition of upper class yet per your post below you are contradicting yourself. Below was what I originally quoted you.



And I understand this reality, but we all make choices. When I first started working, I made $40,000 a year pre-tax. I saved $40,000 over two years towards my house down payment so that I could put down 20% and avoid. I was able to accomplish a 50% savings rate even with a much lower income. We all make choices about how we spend and save. It is admittedly easier now that my income is much higher, but even a higher income hasn't made life feel carefree. I think that is the misconception that many people have. If you just made more money, everything would be alright. The reality is that most people would have to make a very, very high salary to reach the point where they felt money was no longer a concern. That doesn't describe most people that fall within that website's definition of the upper class.
 
Per your post you said it seem that you imply a certain definition of upper class yet per your post below you are contradicting yourself. Below was what I originally quoted you.

I view those statements as the same. Maybe you are misunderstanding my original post. I was saying, both times, that the Pew website doesn't take enough into account regarding how people are choosing to spend their money. They are just looking at how much money people are earning.
 
Frankly I think people are getting the impression I'm going to leave my future kids high and dry. That's far from the truth. But my husband and I have values, that apparently don't match with other people and that's fine, everyone has their own values. Part of our values doesn't involve footing the entire college bill. And as far as the government goes it's one thing they haven't caught up with..parents are not the sole provider for college funds 100% of the time. It means nothing to someone who is expected to pay their own way or most of their own way what the government says their family should be able to contribute based on their parents income. Unfortunately FAFSA in its current state is unlikely to change. It helps to prepare people for expectations. I would never just tell my kid at 17 when they are getting ready for college that "hey..yeah...btw"

I have values that include paying 100% of my children's higher education costs. My parents did it for me and it was the greatest gift that anyone has or probably will ever give me. It allowed me to start off life and take a lower paying fellowship because it would look good on my resume and help me get a much better job afterwards. If I had student loan payments, then I would not have been in the position to take that job. And I probably wouldn't have gotten my current job. And I wouldn't have been able to save $40,000 over two years for my house. It has freed up my options. That is what I want to do for my own kids, allow them to pursue the best course for them, unburdened by crushing student debt like so many of my friends have to deal with.

I am not saying that your choices are wrong, just different than mine. We all make choices about how we spend or save what we earn. There will be many people that never save a dime for their children's education. There will be those, like you, that choose to pick up part of the cost. And there will be some like me that strive to cover all of the costs. And that is alright.
 
I have values that include paying 100% of my children's higher education costs. My parents did it for me and it was the greatest gift that anyone has or probably will ever give me. It allowed me to start off life and take a lower paying fellowship because it would look good on my resume and help me get a much better job afterwards. If I had student loan payments, then I would not have been in the position to take that job. And I probably wouldn't have gotten my current job. And I wouldn't have been able to save $40,000 over two years for my house. It has freed up my options. That is what I want to do for my own kids, allow them to pursue the best course for them, unburdened by crushing student debt like so many of my friends have to deal with.

I am not saying that your choices are wrong, just different than mine. We all make choices about how we spend or save what we earn. There will be many people that never save a dime for their children's education. There will be those, like you, that choose to pick up part of the cost. And there will be some like me that strive to cover all of the costs. And that is alright.
See and that's perfectly fine that you want to pay for all of your kid's education. I see nothing wrong with that. But then why is it wrong for someone to not want to pay for all or most of their kid's education? Think about it this way I still got a good job, my husband got a good job, we paid for our wedding/honeymoon, I bought my own car and still drive it 11 years later, my husband bought his own car (minus $2,000 that his parents owed him) and he still drives it nearly 7 years later, we have our house...and we had student loans. It's not to say our own experience could ever be replicated but we don't in any consider it a detriment that we paid for most of our college. What I was not so nicely being told is that my value is wrong. I appreciate that you did not say that but instead said that my choices are different than yours.
 
















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