Riviera Resale Values

but for someone a little cash strapped it can make all the difference in the world

Someone who is cash strapped should be more responsible with their money as responsibility comes first.

Disney is a business that will do things in both theirs and their shareholders best interests not always the customers. I think people here forget their utopian vacation spot is still a business. Customers generally have a decision they can make if you don't like the business practice don't support it.
 
I’m personally bothered by Disney’s practice of 2nd tiering resale buyers. What difference does it make whether someone buys 50 years and holds vs. 10 years and sells? Disney still got retail value on the initial sale. They should be thanking resale purchasers, as they’d sell a fraction of their timeshares if people felt like they were “stuck” with a contract. Finally, resale purchasers are going to pay far more money in maintenance dues than the original contract ever costs, no matter whether it was retail or resale. It doesn’t make a big difference to Disney, but for someone a little cash strapped it can make all the difference in the world between entry or not. Just my $0.02.

Greed! I think Disney would prefer that there was no resale market and that everyone had to buy direct from them.

Makes me wonder if they could ever legally setup a contract so you couldn't sell it or rent the points out.
 
Makes me wonder if they could ever legally setup a contract so you couldn't sell it or rent the points out.
I'm not a lawyer so I don't know whether that would possible, but I don't think it would work out in Disney's interest. It would be extremely difficult to get people to commit to $40,000 up front and 50 years of maintenance fees with no possible way out down the road. In trying to reduce or eliminate resale contracts, Disney would make it much harder for their own salespeople to sell direct contracts.
 
Yeah, I agree. It’s just greed. Disney got their full price contract when they sold it retail. Now, they want to double down on charging full price, often at a higher rate. While Disney may not like resale on the back end, I’m sure they promote it on the front end. I can just hear the sales department, “don’t worry, if anything ever goes bad, you can just sell that contract, and probably at a profit.” Then, Disney either snaps up the contract or treats secondary buyers as 2nd tier. A little greed is fine until it leads to alienation. I think they are finding that with some of their direct pricing right now.
 
Makes me wonder if they could ever legally setup a contract so you couldn't sell it or rent the points out.
Disney is kind of the outlier among timeshares by having real value in the resale market. Wouldn't be hard to emulate the others and have their buyers stuck in the contracts.
 
^ yeah, but look at the impact that resale restrictions are having on Riviera sales. I know a lot of people who love the hotel, but are staying clear because of a limited exit strategy. I feel like they are only hurting themselves as the pile on restrictions.
 
^ yeah, but look at the impact that resale restrictions are having on Riviera sales. I know a lot of people who love the hotel, but are staying clear because of a limited exit strategy. I feel like they are only hurting themselves as the pile on restrictions.

I think you are overestimating the impact the restrictions are having on Riviera sales. Owners that post on disboards are in the minority. Most people don't care because they think they will never sell. The impact of the restrictions on resale value has also been overblown, Riviera is selling at a similar price as CCV.
 
I’m personally bothered by Disney’s practice of 2nd tiering resale buyers. What difference does it make whether someone buys 50 years and holds vs. 10 years and sells?

This is like the fifth tier of DVC, as they’ve changed rules over the years. At least I’m not the bottom category anymore!
 
I think you are overestimating the impact the restrictions are having on Riviera sales. Owners that post on disboards are in the minority. Most people don't care because they think they will never sell. The impact of the restrictions on resale value has also been overblown, Riviera is selling at a similar price as CCV.

Riviera should be outselling CCV by a ton. It’s brand spanking new, no alternative to an existing property (BRV), and almost $20/point cheaper. However, I think the resale restrictions are playing a roll. That’s just my opinion.
 
I’m personally bothered by Disney’s practice of 2nd tiering resale buyers. What difference does it make whether someone buys 50 years and holds vs. 10 years and sells? Disney still got retail value on the initial sale. They should be thanking resale purchasers, as they’d sell a fraction of their timeshares if people felt like they were “stuck” with a contract. Finally, resale purchasers are going to pay far more money in maintenance dues than the original contract ever costs, no matter whether it was retail or resale. It doesn’t make a big difference to Disney, but for someone a little cash strapped it can make all the difference in the world between entry or not. Just my $0.02.

Yeah, I agree. It’s just greed. Disney got their full price contract when they sold it retail. Now, they want to double down on charging full price, often at a higher rate. While Disney may not like resale on the back end, I’m sure they promote it on the front end. I can just hear the sales department, “don’t worry, if anything ever goes bad, you can just sell that contract, and probably at a profit.” Then, Disney either snaps up the contract or treats secondary buyers as 2nd tier. A little greed is fine until it leads to alienation. I think they are finding that with some of their direct pricing right now.

I actually don't understand how anyone buying resale would expect the exact same product as someone paying significantly more.

I think there was a lack of knowledge years ago. Now it takes about 2 seconds to find 100 posts screaming "don't be an idiot direct buyer - resale saves you tons" and in that moment, people don't care about direct benefits or being treated as "2nd tier". It's only later that some will come back complaining about their "2nd tier status".

So, to be blunt, I don't think any resale buyer has any right to complain about not getting the same things a direct buyer does. We all made our choices and Disney has been very good about grandfathering in when they change the game. So, everyone who buys in gets what they paid for at that time. Though direct buyers are always at risk of losing benefits and thus the value for the premium they paid. Pre 2016 resale buyers are the ultimate winners. Wish I was one!

Increased resale restrictions don't surprise me. I would loooove to see DVC sales struggle and the need to increase direct benefits to get buyers. But that costs them $. Restrictions cost them nothing and will increase their profits both at original sale and ROFR. So, I'm guessing they will try to find any resale restrictions they can before going the route of adding benefits.

Is Disney / DVC greedy? Absolutely, yes.
 
People with "cash to burn" don't buy timeshares, they simply pay Disney Cash prices
Disney doesn't so much care who is in the room spending money. They just care that the room is occupied, and with DVC it likely will be.
And someone staying on rented points or cash is potentially a new DVC direct buyer.
In the timeshare industry, the cost of construction is usually about 20-30% the total cost of sales. (By comparison, marketing costs are 40-50% or higher). At $120pp it is probably much cheaper for Disney to build a shiny new resort rather than to re-acquire existing points. That's especially true because they already own the land on which that new resort will sit.

I suspect ROFR is only used to meet organic demand for "sold out" resorts rather than to generate inventory for the sales "machine."
Also - no one seems to be considering the amount of $ they make on financing. Again, a lot of DIS members (but not all) stick with the "buy only what you can afford without financing," but if you've ever looked at the OCC site, many, many new purchases are made with 90% financing. Our 2 VGF resale contracts were "distressed."
DVCRM is very aggressive in pushing their sellers to ask for higher prices when supply is constrained, and since they’re the largest reseller, it echos through the marketplace. I’ve seen it happen a few times in the last year.
I've seen this happen (not necessarily with DVCRM) with various brokers - I'd call to make a low-ish offer and they'd refuse to present it. Sometimes they would say, the seller just turned down an offer like this, but I'd also heard another broker tell me there was "no way" that my VGF contract would pass ROFR (they were trying to sell me another resort). I've always taken the view that there's another contract out there that's meant for me, so I don't push it. So I wouldn't suggest that the resale market is completely free of other influences.

 
^ I’m not surprised at all. It’s the movement to disincentive resale while still benefiting from ROFRing contracts and selling those points as brand new. Disney already got 100% retail when they sold them new the first time. Buying used already gives you less years, and that should be the only disincentive. Again, it’s Disney’s hypocrisy of benefiting on one hand while discouraging on another. Don’t shine up a bunch of Grand Flo points you snagged on ROFR FOR $150, turn around and sell those points for $255 as new again, and then tell me about resale restrictions. It’s off putting to me, I’m sorry. I understand if you feel differently.
 
I'm not a lawyer so I don't know whether that would possible, but I don't think it would work out in Disney's interest. It would be extremely difficult to get people to commit to $40,000 up front and 50 years of maintenance fees with no possible way out down the road. In trying to reduce or eliminate resale contracts, Disney would make it much harder for their own salespeople to sell direct contracts.
You might want to do a little reading on Timeshare Users Group forums, https://tugbbs.com/forums/, especially the posts by people who did commit to $40K or more up front and MFs with no ending date to buy in to other systems. @Starport Seven-Five is correct. DH and I were staying at a Wyndham a couple of weeks ago and attended the sales pitch to get the gifts. We saw way too many families sitting with flutes of champagne while they signed purchase papers. The minimum buyin offer we were shown was for over $56K.
Disney is kind of the outlier among timeshares by having real value in the resale market. Wouldn't be hard to emulate the others and have their buyers stuck in the contracts.
 
You might want to do a little reading on Timeshare Users Group forums, https://tugbbs.com/forums/, especially the posts by people who did commit to $40K or more up front and MFs with no ending date to buy in to other systems. @Starport Seven-Five is correct. DH and I were staying at a Wyndham a couple of weeks ago and attended the sales pitch to get the gifts. We saw way too many families sitting with flutes of champagne while they signed purchase papers. The minimum buyin offer we were shown was for over $56K.
Different client base, for one. Most timeshares are moneyed middle-aged people looking for a way to spend their retirement. DVC is drawing in parents of young kids who want to "grow up" as a family with Disney. That matters for two reasons. 1) The younger families usually don't have as much financial flexibility as the older families, and 2) the older families might be buying a timeshare that they plan to use until they die, while DVC families might be looking to exit once their kids are grown.

Of course it's not binary and there is plenty of crossover between the groups, but that's a real dynamic that makes a big difference in the marketing strategy.
 
Riviera should be outselling CCV by a ton. It’s brand spanking new, no alternative to an existing property (BRV), and almost $20/point cheaper. However, I think the resale restrictions are playing a roll. That’s just my opinion.

Riviera is outselling CCV by a ton. Last month 60% of all direct sales were Riviera compared to 12% for CCV. Through CCV's first full year of sales it sold about 765,000 points. Riviera sold 1.2 million in that time. It's pace slowed down through the pandemic when sales were shut down completely obviously. The resale restrictions may have made a few people think twice about buying, but mostly people don't care.
 
Riviera is outselling CCV by a ton. Last month 60% of all direct sales were Riviera compared to 12% for CCV. Through CCV's first full year of sales it sold about 765,000 points. Riviera sold 1.2 million in that time. It's pace slowed down through the pandemic when sales were shut down completely obviously. The resale restrictions may have made a few people think twice about buying, but mostly people don't care.
They were referring to the resale price of CCV, not amount of points being sold direct. CCV direct has a much higher price than RIV. The fact that DVC is still selling that much CCV direct shows that more are not sold on RIV. PVB and VGF and even BLT are going for more than RIV. RIV resale prices are slowly going lower and lower. It’s hard to really gauge right now because there are not many out there.
https://www.dvcresalemarket.com/blog/dvc-resale-average-sales-prices-for-february-2021/
 
Different client base, for one. Most timeshares are moneyed middle-aged people looking for a way to spend their retirement. DVC is drawing in parents of young kids who want to "grow up" as a family with Disney. That matters for two reasons. 1) The younger families usually don't have as much financial flexibility as the older families, and 2) the older families might be buying a timeshare that they plan to use until they die, while DVC families might be looking to exit once their kids are grown.

Of course it's not binary and there is plenty of crossover between the groups, but that's a real dynamic that makes a big difference in the marketing strategy.
Let me just say that the families we saw celebrating their purchases at Wyndham were young adults with young kids. We were by far the oldest people there, and we weren't buying. Again, if you read TUG, there are enough posts by young people who were suckered into a timeshare purchase and now realize they can't afford it, can't use it, and want out to show that DVC isn't the only timeshare company selling to young families. Some of them find TUG in time to rescind, many don't. Yes, there are posts from middle-aged and older folks who also are looking to rescind or to get out of their timeshare, but it's not "most." Maybe a lot of the timeshare users are middle-aged, but the new buyers come from all age groups.
 














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