Rented points problem

[KS_Disney_Dad]

I'm imagining this, sung by a barber shop quartet (a la the episode of Friends where Ross sent one to Rachel's office), to the tune of "Happy Happy Birthday"

"you-spent fourteen hundred dollars
on his points account
you haven't paid the bill,
so we're here to call you out.

We hope that you have seen
the error of your ways
Please sign the check and send it
within a couple days!"

Classic!!! You have a future in "Deadbeat-O-Grams"

 

[justbishop]

It's a gift, lol!

 

[kristenrice]

I'm only half-awake as I type this so the answer is probably obvious, but what would Disney do if a cash guest in their resort did the same thing? If I stayed at AKV on cash, put a CC# on file at check in and then cancelled it the next day, what would they do to get their money back from me? Why won't they do the same thing for those staying on points?

 

[Chuck S]

I'm only half-awake as I type this so the answer is probably obvious, but what would Disney do if a cash guest in their resort did the same thing? If I stayed at AKV on cash, put a CC# on file at check in and then cancelled it the next day, what would they do to get their money back from me?

They would likely either write it off, try to file charges, or ban the person from making any further WDW resort reservations.

Why won't they do the same thing for those staying on points?

The simple answer is, because they don't have to. With cash reservations, they at least have some profit from the pre-paid room package to offset the loss. With DVC rentals, it is the owner that makes any profit. Disney has nothing to offset that that loss. The owner made the reservation for the renter, and as all rooms are granted charging privileges with a CC, it could be argued that this is a normal part of the reservation process and the owner is ultimately responsible. And legally, they are not forcing the owner to assume the debt, the owner simply can not use their point until the debt is satisfied. It could be satisfied by the renter, or the owner.

 

[kristenrice]

They would likely either write it off, try to file charges, or ban the person from making any further WDW resort reservations.





The simple answer is, because they don't have to. With cash reservations, they at least have some profit from the pre-paid room package to offset the loss. With DVC rentals, it is the owner that makes any profit. Disney has nothing to offset that that loss. The owner made the reservation for the renter, and as all rooms are granted charging privileges with a CC, it could be argued that this is a normal part of the reservation process and the owner is ultimately responsible. And legally, they are not forcing the owner to assume the debt, the owner simply can not use their point until the debt is satisfied. It could be satisfied by the renter, or the owner.

Now that I'm fully awake, your answer makes complete sense. Thanks!

 

[maburke]

With cash reservations, they at least have some profit from the pre-paid room package to offset the loss. With DVC rentals, it is the owner that makes any profit. Disney has nothing to offset that that loss.

I disagree with you on this point. Charging privileges are not offered for the room rate, they are offered to make it easier for people to spend money in the resort, at the restaurants, and at the parks. Disney makes loads of profits from a renter spending money this way. As with any other vendor that takes credit cards, they offset the loss from one person's CC fraud with the profits on everybody else's charging.

I do agree with you that they don't just write it off because with an owner to fall back on, they don't have to.

 

[crisi]

I disagree with you on this point. Charging privileges are not offered for the room rate, they are offered to make it easier for people to spend money in the resort, at the restaurants, and at the parks. Disney makes loads of profits from a renter spending money this way. As with any other vendor that takes credit cards, they offset the loss from one person's CC fraud with the profits on everybody else's charging.

I do agree with you that they don't just write it off because with an owner to fall back on, they don't have to.

Sure, but that isn't what Chuck is saying.

Let's say the margin on a CRO room package is 50% and you book a trip for $3000. That $3000 needs to be paid 45 days out or something, so if the credit card doesn't go through, you don't take the trip and Disney is out nothing. You take the trip and get a $1500 room limit to charge against before they put the charge through. You spend $1400. The charge card doesn't go through. Disney has still made $100 pure profit on you even if they write off the loss.

When a DVC renter rents their points, Disney sees no room profit on that guest. They'll get profit on the money they spend on tickets, and what they spend in the parks, but if the tickets were bought from a broker (less profit from Disney) and the renter's room charges don't go through on the credit card, Disney can loose money on the deal.

 

[maburke]

Sure, but that isn't what Chuck is saying.

Let's say the margin on a CRO room package is 50% and you book a trip for $3000. That $3000 needs to be paid 45 days out or something, so if the credit card doesn't go through, you don't take the trip and Disney is out nothing. You take the trip and get a $1500 room limit to charge against before they put the charge through. You spend $1400. The charge card doesn't go through. Disney has still made $100 pure profit on you even if they write off the loss.

When a DVC renter rents their points, Disney sees no room profit on that guest. They'll get profit on the money they spend on tickets, and what they spend in the parks, but if the tickets were bought from a broker (less profit from Disney) and the renter's room charges don't go through on the credit card, Disney can loose money on the deal.

I agree that Disney loses money on that points guest. What I am saying is that if there were no credit card charging, Disney has made the $1500 profit on the cash guest. So their decision to provide (push?) charging for guests is not related to the room profit, it has to be related to the profit they make from offering the room charge minus the loss from some small fraction of guests that will skip out without paying. They don't even have to do that calculation for DVC guests, because they've got the collateral of our points. So that's much less risk for them (and higher for us).

 

[crisi]

I agree that Disney loses money on that points guest. What I am saying is that if there were no credit card charging, Disney has made the $1500 profit on the cash guest. So their decision to provide (push?) charging for guests is not related to the room profit, it has to be related to the profit they make from offering the room charge minus the loss from some small fraction of guests that will skip out without paying. They don't even have to do that calculation for DVC guests, because they've got the collateral of our points. So that's much less risk for them (and higher for us).

Yes, that is why they offer room charging - makes it easier for guests to spend money. With a cash guest, however, their risk is tempered by the margin on the hotel room. With a DVC guest, they wouldn't have that cushion, so they really have no interest in not pushing the risk to us. The contract permits it, Disney keeps the increase revenue of those easy purchases, pushes the risk out to the members.

Stories like this also help discourage members from going into the rental business - Disney loves selling DVC points - they aren't necessarily thrilled when CRO guests rent DVC points from members since that cuts into their room revenue. To them, the ideal situation is a member who can't use his points and either gives them to a relative or friend who wouldn't have gone without the free room - or leaves the room sit empty for DVC to turn over to CRO. The situation they don't like is seeing a CRO Deluxe guest decide they can get a better bargain renting DVC points than staying at the Y&BC.

 

[PoohNFriends]

I've been behind on my Dis and just found this thread - any updates?

Wishing the OP good luck in the fight to get the money from the renter.

 

[LIFERBABE]

http://http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=37861112&postcount=98

Twice this happened and twice my account was frozen. I had guests in Oct 2009 and Dec 2009 when this occurred. I still have copies of the folios that were faxed to me by Member Accounting 6 months after the fact.

DVD can and will freeze your points and reservations until the balance due is paid in full. Frankly they dont care who pays it! I could not do jack, until it was cleared.

I own lots of points, but thankfully I do not have to rent to strangers. Both my issues were resolved quickly because my guests were friends and were horrified this happened moreso than I.

I too am sickened but believe DVD is trying to discourage rentals with their slow-no notifications with these balances. Both my notification documents were dated 6 months prior and listed myself (the member) as CC: but they were never mailed to me or my guests.

I rented points from another member for our Oct 2010 trip, I chose not to add charging to the reservation, (my keys said NO CHARGING PRIVLEGES) since this happened to me and I dont want to do this to someone that was magical enough to rent me their points.

It's really really sad and I will continue to pursue the issues of why it took 6 months for me to be notified of these balances. No deposit, credit card protection, insurance, Paypal, etc. will cover you for that amount of time after a rental takes place.

 

[ssnelle]

WOW, I cannot believe this...let us know how it turns out!

Last December I rented out some points and just now I'm finding out that the renter had left with a $1400.00 charge that wasn't paid. I had her sign a rental agreement. Can DVC hold me responsible for this? I thought guests had to supply a charge card at check in to set up charging privileges? Why would I be responsible? Any help/advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
Jerry C.

 

[DebbieB]

http://http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=37861112&postcount=98

Twice this happened and twice my account was frozen. I had guests in Oct 2009 and Dec 2009 when this occurred. I still have copies of the folios that were faxed to me by Member Accounting 6 months after the fact.

I read your post and you said these were people you knew and it was taken care of. How did it happen in the first place? They gave a credit card at check-in, Disney couldn't charge to it at check-out?

 

[SAGE]

I read your post and you said these were people you knew and it was taken care of. How did it happen in the first place? They gave a credit card at check-in, Disney couldn't charge to it at check-out?

I do not understand this either. I've rented a reservation several times and always give MY credit card # at check in. Any purchases at Disney are charged to my CC, not the owner.

 

[Rileygirl]

I have been away from the boards for a few months, I am so sorry to hear about the rental troubles.

I quickly looked at the forums today, and could not find the rent/trade forum- I was thinking that it was gone - eventually I realized I was not signed in, so could not see the forum.

My friend was asking about selling his ressie, and I told him that the disboards was a good place to list it - but I now see that the requirements have changed - I guess it is to try and stop scammers and fly by nighters. I hope it works.

I will also let him know that maybe renting out his ressie is not such a good idea, I know I rented points over Christmas last year, (THANKS D!) and had no problems, but this is very concerning.

I hope the OP comes back and gives an update.

~A

 

[LIFERBABE]

I dont want to give too many details as to how this happened because the Oct 09 situation was downright scary in the wrong hands, but I will say that when the front desk makes a mistake and they dont catch it right away, their contract with MS does not allow them to contact the guest staying on points directly.

The Front Desk is required to transfer the debt to MS and MS is responsible to contact the guest and collect. Whoever has this job, sucks royally at it!

My Dec 09 guest checked out on 12/25/09. All charges were correctly charged to the card on file except the check out day charges. My guest was not allowed to "float" any bills. Payments were charged by BWV Front Desk 7 times in 4 nights.

On Feb 3 10 the discrepancy was noted and Member Services was billed for the remaining balance. I was told the credit card had expired (on Dec 31) and Research and Billing could not contact the guest due to the contract with DVC.

4/19/10 Member Accounting drafted a letter to my guest and supposedly copied me. Neither of us received any notification. I call MS almost weekly and was never notified over the phone either.

On 6/29/10 I call MS to make a reservation and was told I needed to contact Member Accounting regarding a past due balance. At this time I could not make my reservation, bank, borrow or waitlist until the balance was paid.
My guest spent over $1500 total and the remaining balance was less than $200.

My recommendation to those renting points forward. Dont wait 6 months for MS to notify you that your guests left a balance and it is your responsibility to clear it. Notify your guests in writing prior to their stay, that you will pull their folio after their stay to ensure there was a zero balance at check out. Contact Research and Billing @ 407-828-5630 with the reservation number and guest info and have them fax or mail the folio to you. I would wait 3 biz days and then request the folio.
It may not prevent fraud, but at least you can act quickly while there may be some protections still in place.
Yes it is extra work/cost for all those involved and Im sure DVC will not be happy about this, but until they improve their system of notification, members need to protect themselves. DVC can prevent you from checking in to your own reservations if you carry a balance, or cancel your reservations outright.
You ARE responsible for your guests transgressions so take control and minimize your risks.
I think it's awful that the OP gave such a great rate and got all this grief in return.

 

[kwdw]

Just a reminder that some of us who want to rent ARE good people who follow through with their commitments!

As an FYI - this is why I still stop by the front desk and make sure I walk away with a ZERO balance sheet at check-out whenever I stay someplace. I don't want things to come back and haunt me later. And well, it's why I don't typically charge anything to a room - as you never know when that is really going to get posted.

Now - obviously - if charges are room damages or theft - you might not know until later..... but gosh - maybe I'm naive for thinking that the chances of a renter not agreeing to pay up is slim - and worth the risk.

And yep - As I will become a DVC owner soon - I certainly think everyone needs to balance the risk versus the reward of renting for themselves.

 

[DebbieB]

Liferbabe - thanks for info. We all assume the OP's renter was a deadbeat but it could be a front desk screwup. Good idea to get a copy of the folio.

 

[SAGE]

Yes... thanks for explaining. As I stated in my earlier post, I have rented reservations for wonderful Dis owners. Since I give my CC # upon check in for charges, I had never thought to visit the front desk when checking out. I WILL now. I'd be mortified if the member received my charges to their account.

 

[hollis]

Yes... thanks for explaining. As I stated in my earlier post, I have rented reservations for wonderful Dis owners. Since I give my CC # upon check in for charges, I had never thought to visit the front desk when checking out. I WILL now. I'd be mortified if the member received my charges to their account.

You are a very kind person. I'm sure there are a lot of good people out there. Let's not be discouraged by a few less pleasant experience.